Episode 38: Selling without feeling salesy - what actually needs to change with Catherine Watkin

00:54 You're listening to The Business of Stories with Susan Paton, showing you how to share stories that do the selling in your business so you don't have to. You'll have heard me talk on this podcast many times about showing you how to share stories that do the selling for you so you don't have to and here's what I mean by that Your stories really can do the heavy lifting for you. They can build trust and authority, and create a deep connection with your ideal client. Your stories can take them on a journey, position you as the guide that they need in their story – and show them what's possible for THEM when THEY buy your product or service. When your stories do all of that…and more

01:50 People show up, reach out to connect with you already knowing they want to work with you. I've seen it so many times not just in my business but also my clients who often tell me that even people they don't know reaching out on LinkedIn are already bought into them because their stories did the selling for them But there is another important piece that actually comes before the selling, which is the story you're telling yourself. Because if the story in your head about selling is not a good one – if it's not making you feel excited and energised about making offers and telling people how they can work with you – you'll hold back! And that doesn't serve anyone… Not you… Not your clients

02:46 And so, as I thought about doing an episode on selling and what I wanted to share with you. I couldn't think of anybody better to come and join me for this conversation than Catherine Watkin who shows business owners how to sell in a way that feels authentic So they can build a great business without compromising their values Catherine and I connected a few years ago, and immediately saw how aligned our work is. So i'm over the moon that she's here today to talk all things sales – how to sell without ever feeling salesy? And what needs to change for you to be able to show up and sell confidently so you can make the difference you started your business to make? Here's my chat with Catherine

03:41 So, Catherine it is so lovely to have you on The Business of Stories podcast. Been really looking forward to this chat! Can you start by just letting the listeners know a little bit about you and your business? Yeah, so thank you for having me as a guest and I am Catherine Watkin and my business is called Selling from the Heart I'm just going into my 15th year and in all of that time, my core thing has been working with values led and what I call difference making business owners. And teaching them how to sell and enroll clients in ways that feel very authentic, very comfortable but are still effective. I love this topic is such an interesting topic isn't it? Selling! It brings up

04:33 So many emotions. It's a bit like the podcast I did on pricing, it's amazing how people can feel very differently about it so one of the things that I do talk about quite a lot is the story in your head and I'd love to hear what you think What stops people or what makes people feel salesy? What makes selling feels so difficult How much of that is the story in their head? Yeah, and you know I love that because I'm almost going to answer in a slightly different way to begin with because when you say that it makes me realize that this is one of things that I do that makes my work so effective. Because my story about sales is really positive and I absolutely love sales

05:23 Now, the people who come and learn from me they have all these other stories in their head. They have stories like there's something inherently wrong with taking money for helping people or the other story will be I know that sales is about manipulating people and making them say yes and i want people to work with me because they really need it not because I sort of tricked There's stories in their head around, if this person says yes to getting my help I'm going to profit from it personally and that something feels wrong about that. And I came into this business from a 20...I'd had a twenty year sales career before I even started this business and I already had very healthy thinking about sales. I didn't have stuff

06:12 And so it's almost like my love of sales and my healthy thinking about sales, and the stories in my head rub off on the clients who learn from me. Why do you think that a lot of people have this story in their head? That selling is somehow wrong or underhand or evil, that if you're somebody who's focused on money and making sales that So, you know, I think there's actually two different things that are going on there. One is that the truth of it is that a lot of what I call traditional sales

07:06 Is manipulative and underhand. There's this big focus, and I call it traditional sales to distinguish those sales techniques that are typically taught in standard sales training courses from the style of sales that I teach And that traditional approach is very much based on how am I going to get this person to say yes. The very idea of closing a sale is completely one-sided and supports the agenda of the person doing the selling, it's got nothing to do with what's best for the person who's buying And so a lot of business owners come into business and they have these ideas about what sales is supposed to be. And they've developed that either because they've done some traditional sales training, and they've been taught that they're supposed to use closing techniques and handle objections and all the other tricks

07:57 And also from their own personal experiences, you know maybe they've gone to buy a car or they have the double glazing man lock them in their house and not let them leave till they signed over that money. We all experienced those types of really heavy handed clumsy sales so we adopted these beliefs this is what sales is And if I want clients, I have to do sales. And if this is what sales is, I don't want any part of it. But the other piece which you mentioned – it's slightly different – which is the discomfort in getting paid for helping people and this is often more common in people who have had careers in the helping professions

08:40 Typically, I have a quiz called the Authentic Sales Styles Quiz and one of the profiles is called The Nurturer. And The Nurturer typically is somebody who's always... they've got paid in terms of their salary for helping people but they maybe had a long career that when they help somebody that individual isn't handing over money and for that group of people there becomes this huge discomfort around I can't take money for helping. I'm a good person, I want to do good things and there's this real conflict then because of course if you want a business you have to get paid and if you're not getting paid then you end up in your full-time job and then you're not actually helping anybody because you don't have time to do the helping work but yeah there is...there is a conflict there for a lot of people around feeling that there's just something inherently wrong with getting paid to help other people

09:32 And I think that the result of that is that they then hold back, right? And they can come across as not very confident or it all feels a bit wishy-washy. Or they don't clearly explain what the next step is because...I had somebody recently inside Storytelling Masteries say that they did a five day challenge And she said she got to the point on the Wednesday night where you're supposed to, open the doors tell people about your opportunity. To work with you further if they want too and she said I talked about everything except The Price She just couldn't say it so she ended up finishing The Call and moving on and hadn't told anybody The Price but it's so funny how

10:22 Our brain just starts playing these tricks with us and then we end up like holding back and not being the confident guide that's there to help people. Yeah, absolutely! And nobody wins then right? Because you don't get to serve, you don't get to help your clients, you don't get to make the difference you started your business to make, you don't get to build a successful business that you want And your clients don't get your help. They don't get to work with you, so nobody wins when you don't actually step into that role. Yeah and that's a phrase I use a lot when i'm talking about this exact thing that nobody wins the client isn't getting the help, you're not growing your business and it's not just about growing the business but you're not getting the fulfillment that you wanted your business to give you because actually you're not helping enough people

11:17 Sales It's not even a thread that goes through the middle. It's like something that's wrapped around everything that I'm doing, which is almost shifting the way that people are thinking about sales and their mindset around sales. And I'm always encouraging people to see sales as a service and this goes beyond...I know probably everybody has heard people say before well sales is service, sales is service But the biggest way that you can actually help a client is by guiding them to make a decision to say yes, to working with you if you believe that you actually can make a difference. So a lot of people fall into this trap of thinking, oh I love to make a difference to people and I do this great work but somehow i've got to get this really awkward thing called sales out of the way first and now it's so horrible I don't really want to do it

12:20 But actually one of the biggest ways that we can really serve and make a difference to somebody is guiding them to make that decision. Because if they don't make the decision, and a committed decision to go yes I want to do this i want to buy from you... You don't get to do that magical transformational work! And a lot of people are sort of overlooking that moment when sales is probably The biggest way that you can help somebody. You could argue even more than doing the work itself because you'd never get to do the work itself if didn't help them come to a decision

12:56 Yeah, exactly. Because you've actually got them to make a decision, commit to something, invest in themselves and decide this is something I want to change. This is something I want to take action on. I want my story to change and I want you to be the person that helps me do that. Exactly! And a lot of people who are carrying a lot of negative stories about sales they hold back from that. They come across somebody that they think could help And they don't make an invitation to come and find out more. They have a sales conversation, and they go all over the place and make it into a lovely nice chat and then wonder why the person went off to think about it. They don't make a really confident recommendation you know I really feel like can help you

13:47 Here's how it would work and here is how much it's going to cost. What do you think? Would you like to go ahead?" And they sort of hold back from all those pieces in the process I work with a lot coaches, healers, therapists and other sorts service-based businesses They're selling what I call the intangible This isn't buying a piece of art or a piece of jewellery Or some clothes or new washing machine The services at point sale are quite intangible The Clients This is the value. This is how you're going to benefit from doing that work I really believe that I can help you achieve the thing that you want to achieve, this is what it's gonna cost, I'd really love to work with you in this way and directly ask them if they want to go ahead And too often those business owners are holding back from that process but the client themselves needs the business owner to talk with conviction and belief about how they can help Yeah absolutely

15:05 And one of the reasons I was excited to get you on the podcast is because we're always saying how aligned what we do is. Because it comes from a place of serving, right? And wanting to make a difference and wanting to have an impact. One of the steps in my process is your value. And I always say that for other people to see your value, you need to see it first And I think for a lot of people, maybe the first step to really starting to feel differently about selling is actually to tune into the value. What I mean by that is not what you're worth it's what is the value to your ideal client of what you can help them do? Like how

15:53 much do they value? How important is this to them, what is going to be different how is their life gonna change or their business or their health or wealth or whatever it is. That thing that you can help them do or have become what is the value of that because if they don't see the value then there not gonna buy But one of your roles as the guide is to help people see what is possible for them, right? Help people see what they can achieve. And that's I think very aligned with what you were saying about it needs to be tangible like they need to be able to see this is what's going to be different this is what's going to change this is how my story is going to evolve if I work with you

16:43 So that's part of the process of helping somebody see what this journey might look like and what they're going to have at the end of it. Yeah, and there is almost a two-part process there because as the person doing the selling we can't impose that vision on the client And actually if we try and impose that vision on the client They are going to be sceptical or they are gonna think Oh you just trying paint this great picture cause your trying sell to me? I have a seven step proces for sales conversation 5. Compelling Future Working together or how would you like things to be instead and asking questions to actually get the potential clients of paint. The picture themselves of how they want things to be but it's like a coaching process, you're asking them the questions in their building the process so they need division and I need the belief is well because i was say that your client isn't going to

17:46 So, I'm going to start with the first one. Your stories need to connect, right? Your story and their story needs to connect. There needs to be some kind of golden thread there needs to be something that you see when you hear their story you can see yourself

18:30 It's really interesting because I do have a slightly different take on something you said there, because I think that sometimes people don't know what success would look like. Because they haven't experienced it or they haven't been there for a long time so they've almost forgotten what it's like and maybe this ties in a little bit with that belief whether they actually believe that they can do it. So I think sometimes painting that picture of success with things like

19:14 Stories of other clients that you've worked with, stories of what they've been able to achieve and maybe some stories that show that they were in a similar place to where your client is now. And this is what they were able to achieve and that starts to open up A new story right that starts to open up like oh actually maybe I could go even further than i thought or maybe this is possible for me, maybe I can get there from this place where I am now. I often have people on a call say to me you know I don't know if this is the right time for me because xyz right because

19:53 I haven't had any clients yet or because, you know, I'm not really clear what my niche is yet. And I always say it's a perfect time to come in right? Because we can start to unpack your stories and will find all of those things that you're looking for but i do think part of the process not just the sales process but when you're just thinking about your content how you're showing up how you're talking about what you do part of that is to show people what their future could look like Yes, and actually I think we're saying the same thing there. Yeah! We're saying that the client needs to believe that this success is possible and it's part of our role in the sales process to show them that that is possible and they also need to believe that we are someone who can get them there. They need to believe both of those things otherwise they won't make that investment because it's time on money and there are so many different ways

20:47 Create that belief and I agree with you as well. So, I'm sort of talking about sales conversations when I'm teaching...I'm often talking about a one-to-one sales conversation but it does translate over to selling one too many as well so in a one-to-one sales conversation one of the things i do teach people to use is I call it social proof stories. It's stories of other clients in similar situations and being able to tell the story of that other client and put Yes, absolutely. And the role of storytelling in selling I think is

21:32 powerful and helps people actually get over that fear because a lot of people feel much more comfortable sharing stories than they do what they perceive as selling. So if they can use stories as much as possible to do the heavy lifting for them, right? To make that connection, to build that trust, to position us as the guide I often have people show up on a call because they want to come and work with me, and they're already sold. They already know they want to work with me because my stories have created that connection and trust, and they know that they wanna work with me

22:22 I just talked about social proof stories in the sales conversation, but of course you can also use your own personal stories to inspire people for what's possible. In terms of the sales stuff that I teach, I'm slightly unusual in that I don't have that story – this is where I was struggling and this is the journey that I took and now look, you know, this is where I am and you can do this too I don't have that story when it comes to sales because i came to this business from a very successful 20 year career in sales, already comfortable with sales already loved sales so i don't have that sort of struggle-to-success story about i used to feel sick when i had to make sales conversations and i used to go and hide under the bed

23:03 And so I have to use stories in a slightly different way. Yeah, which is a really good point. Probably most coaches do have that story right? Because most coaches they are their own idle client but i certainly work with lots of clients that don't have that story. Photographers for instance personal trainers often don't have that story they've never been where their client is now But there are still so many stories they can share because part of the role of storytelling is just to build that connection, right? Just to have people start to feel like they're getting to know you and you're someone that they like. You're someone that they trust. You're someone that they can see themselves working with

23:47 So part of it is just to let people know who you are, what you're about, what you stand for. What's important to you? What matters to you all of those things so your values and and just your energy and you know people just get to know you and see if you feel like a good fit for them but also the other part is that once you start working with clients you will have those stories of how you've worked with clients, what you understand You know how they're feeling, you know the problem that they're facing. You know what they need to navigate, what challenge they need to get past so you can share those stories too? Yeah and I have two stories that i've always used a lot that just sort of let my clients know that I get them it's that relatability and also the credibility as well and two of those stories for me are one about how when I used to work in the recruitment industry

24:41 I'd be sent off for sales training and I'd be taught all the manipulative psychological techniques. And then, I come back to my desk and my manager would walk around behind making sure that I was following it...and I felt absolutely sick to my stomach! And I would wait until he'd gone away and then i would just do it my way. And I became the top billing consultant in my company out of 50 consultants, and that's relatable for people! I'm not saying I struggled with sales but I'm saying I really struggled with using these manipulative techniques myself I have another story which is about how when i left the recruitment industry and i wanted to find work that was truly purposeful to me.

25:31 I retrained in loads of modalities. I retrained as a coach, yoga teacher and LP practitioner, hypnotherapist, nutritional therapist energy healer acupuncturists endless list. Oh wow! And i practiced in some of those as well So, my clients also get that I get them. I might not have struggled with sales but my hypnotherapist clients they know that I've sat in front of my hypnotherapy client. My nutritional therapist clients they know that I understand the complexity of the work that they do and that also makes me relatable even though i'm not saying I used to struggle with sales too. Yeah absolutely

26:09 So, we've talked a lot about the head chatter right? The story in the head. What holds people back what stops them why that's not a win-win for everybody why it's not serving people How do people start to change that? Because you said at the beginning, you love selling. I love selling too and I think that energy comes across like...I often have people say to me, You never come across as pushy, you never come across as sales-ey even though I sell lots of stuff! Like I've just done a launch, I've just filled up my program got 100 people in And I sold lots, I sold every day. But people still say to me you know, I love your energy, I love your passion and it never feels salesy so how do people start to feel a bit differently about it? So that they can show up differently and more confidently what do you suggest? There's two pieces one is the energy and intention of sales yeah everyone's learned from everything they've ever learned about sales that sales is about making somebody else say yes

27:12 And as soon as people understand that sales is not about making someone else do something that they might not want to do, it is about guiding an effective sales process and encouraging that client to come to the decision that's right for them. That decision might be, No I'm not going to buy from you right now! The job of a business owner isn't to make them buy It's to make sure that they have taken them through a process and clearly communicated the difference they can make so that client has, I call it the internal yes. When the client themselves goes oh my gosh this sounds like exactly what i need! I wasn't even thinking I would sign up but I think I want to do this...I wonder how much is going to be? So when we can shift our energy and intention and the way people are thinking about and approaching sales

28:02 Then that changes a lot. The other thing that changes is when they know what the process is, A lot of people do not have a clear sales process They don't have a clear journey from when that person first comes across them through to the sales conversation and they don't have a clear structure for the sales conversation so it goes all over the place And when the business owner knows that they have this process that they can guide somebody through And there's a structure to that. It feels much more solid for them, it feels better for the client as well and then there is a third piece which is... And now its working! Your energy and intention are good your sales process is working people are saying yes to you. That's going to shift the energy. Right? And then that's the shift. That's the end result when it feels good and works

28:58 Yeah, and it goes back to that story in our head again doesn't it? Everything comes back to that. It's when you start to see the difference that you're making when you start to realise that selling is an important part of what you do because its not only allowing you to make a difference but it means there are people out there who get help and you get to make that difference too And ultimately, it is about standing in that role of the guide confidently showing people this is what is possible. I know how to help you get there. I can guide you on this journey. I can show you the path. I can light that path up for you. This is what it would look like. This is what you need to invest. Do you want to go on that journey together?

29:54 Amazing. Thank you so much, Catherine that has been a lot of fun and like I say it's a topic that I literally could talk about all day You're so right that we're so aligned. There's so much that you've said today that just mirrors what I teach and how I teach it, but we've always known that since we first got to know each other – just how similar our values and our whole approach to business is. Absolutely! So where could listeners find you if they want to explore a little bit more about what you do? The best place is probably my website which they can get to at sellingfromtheheart.com and there's some free resources on there I have the 7 Steps To Yes structure that i've just talked about, that I teach people to guide people through That's available as a 21 minute video training that people can sign up too for free The quiz I mentioned is on there People can find out what their sales profile is There are few other freebies and resources If anyone wants to connect with me more personally

30:57 I'm mainly on Facebook as Catherine Watkin, Catherine with a C, Watkin with an O S and i'm also sort of dabbling in LinkedIn a little bit as well but Facebook is my main online home. Amazing thank you so much! Thank you very much for having me So as always before I go let me give you a quick action step that you can go away and do here's your two-part action step for today First of all, take a moment to notice the story in your head about selling. What do you actually believe about it? That it's pushy that people won't want it that is wrong to want to make money check what that story is and then ask yourself this

31:52 What if by not making offers and telling people how they can work with me, I'm stopping them from changing their life or business? I'm standing in the way of them getting the transformation they want because I'm not being clear and confident about how I can help them. And what working with me would look like so sit with that for a few minutes Notice how you feel about selling. And if it's not a positive feeling, reframe it! I talked in last week's episode about the power of reframing things to win at life and then put an offer out One clear confident invite to take the next step with you Tell people how you can help them Explain what is possible for them Make the invitation No overthinking it

32:54 No hiding it at the bottom of a long post. Just a simple, clear honest invitation to buy your product or service So that's your action step for today Change the story in your head about selling and put your offer out there And I'll see you next time For more stories that do the selling for you so you don't have too Thank you so much for being here. I love that we get to do this together! Would you do me a huge favour and please rate, review and follow this podcast in Apple Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts? And i'll see you next time for more honest conversations meaningful connections and of course stories