Justice For Davidians [Dh5aNTj6q S]

00:01 I love Mike Hanson Archives. Get ready to run! We're back as we promised, we've got a very special show here tonight. We have some caramel survivors and we plan on having footage not before seen at 9 o'clock so if you all want to come down to ACTV and meet us

00:46 our guest here tonight that's you're more than welcome to do that. If you're watching channel 46 on Fort Worth, Texas we are being cable cast out of Fort Worth now as well where a non-copyrighted program feel free to use any information on this program for the viewing audience in Fort Worth Now let me just briefly bring up I want or bring up our guest We have first over here to my far left we have a young lady that brought out the tapes of Mr. Koresh has to be played on primetime Miss Catherine Madison and two my dear Mr.. Who spent the whole 51 days in Mount Carmel facility? Go ahead and

01:47 kind of, I guess just give an opening statement or something specifics. You want to give an opening statement? Or do you just wanna... Oh, here. I'd be willing to answer any questions anyone asks. Very anxious for people to understand the truth and understand the kind of people that were in our home at New Mount Carmel Center That's about it. How long were you a branch of the San Diego City, Kathy? Well I was at Mount Carmel when Ben Roden and Lois Roden was there in fact so I've been many years at Mount Carmel that is the reason why I came to Texas from Arizona

02:48 Okay, Clive. You stayed the whole 51 days there you unfortunately and sadly lost your an 18 year old daughter there in Mount Carmel on the day of the fire If you would just if you could just give a little opening statement I'm pleased to be here we've been on the show before and I'm glad that you invited me back wherever Our concern is that the truth gets out to as many people as possible. We have a real concern for those who are still in prison, being held unjustly and having been found innocent by jury If you have any questions on what took place three-and-a-half years ago or you may have some questions about what's been happening lately we'd be glad to get...

03:40 Well, we're going to get into that. I want it so... Now if there's anything you all want to include that's fine but let's just start just briefly with some of the beliefs of the Branch Davidians at a time before he became famous, so to speak unfortunately famous. Well, take the Bible as our creed, we believe is basically literal. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament are going to be literally fulfilled especially the prophecies that talk about the last days The only thing that we do not take literal where the Bible uses symbolic terms you know beasts and things like that which have uninterpretated meaning

04:41 Some of our basic beliefs were that the law of God is still in effect. Many churches, of course, believe it was nailed to the cross but we hold that it continues on to this day. Let me just interrupt for a minute I also believe that We don't eat pork and shellfish. No, right. Saturday Sabbaths... If God says it's unclean we feel it's unclean Right He has a reason for that I agree with you And I've been following them laws myself but go ahead Another one of our basic many of the prophecies uh..of the Bible um talk about God intervening in the affairs of men and bringing the world as we know it basically to an end not doing away with by devastation

05:35 inserting his presence and beginning to set up a kingdom. It's that in the Bible, and in Revelation that he will come down basically and fight against the nations that have fought against his people and eventually going to take the territory they have usurped over the years and give it back what he calls his That's been a major doctrine of ours for quite a number of years since the mid-30s that God began in the Holy Land with Jerusalem. One thing that I happen to be very blind on point, and that is that the other side of the coin—the Antichrist forces will establish his new world order that we see clearly on this show. And I know that I believe

06:35 feelings about that as well. This one world system is being said. We've known quite a bit about the overall of a One World Order, we may have looked at it You know, not perhaps so politically as you all but we've looked at it from a biblical point of view and we see beasts illustrated in Revelation that would dominate the world and cause men to receive a mark and obey otherwise they're going to be killed. Things like that. And of course when you try

07:14 read and study these prophecies, you run into names and places and dates and so forth that back it up in history. going on in the world today. Beginning a briefing of reporters now in Waco and let's go to that line. The FBI did not return fire gas was inserted using a mark 5 delivery system secured to a boom also non-pyrotechnic delivery systems were utilized to insert CS gas the occupants and the compound were advised

07:53 Do not fire. If you fire, your fire will be returned. Non-lethal tear gas. Exit the compound now and follow instructions. Also non pyrotechnic delivery systems were utilized to insert CS gas Come out now and you will not be harmed. You will be provided medical attention come out and you will be treated professionally no one will be injured submit to proper authorities No, One Will Be Injured Submit To Proper Authorities

08:44 to receive a mark and obey, otherwise they're going to be killed. Things like that and of course when you try to read and study these prophecies, names and places and dates and so forth that back it up in history and in the affairs that are going on in the world today. For what came to my mind is the fact that when you read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, you find out that Satan is going to appear as a man. And people are gonna look at him and say, Is this the one who's made all of trouble for us? He's gonna be in a position he has never been before

09:36 You yourself also see this one world order. Oh, yes that is something that's been going on since 1776 and people don't realize it in fact it goes farther back than that It seems that in Solomon's time who was a very He had the principles of the New World Order. But he was looking at it from God's perspective, that New World Order in many respects are following the things that you would read in the scriptures... That there will be one person that you are and whatever is given as a law, you will have to follow. And of course they're ideas also

10:26 Looking at it from man's point of view, by a man. Very indoor effectiveness I think. Good morning. Good morning. Hi. Hello Miss Burkhalter. I want to commend you for the magnificent work. My name is Pierre Laucie and I'm a trial attorney and I've used your publication some Haitian 243H, the asylum. Now... I got right through to the Secretary of the Army four years ago, and this is the second time I called. And I'd like to ask you the same question in commentary. It's kind of my solution to the whole thing. If I may have a follow-up? It's a big question. Here is my solution. The President is working on it but... ...I would do away with all national and international...

11:26 The purpose of it would be to enforce the findings that, hey I would also have all the judges internationally elected. Some of the problems with sovereignty are relatively obvious but it seems to me with the new world order disarming should be an ideal to work for. Is anybody doing it or what are your thoughts on that? Mr. Lucey, with respect I don't think that's a viable program for activists to work for. I think that given the just nature of the world system and example the hostility or the perception

12:17 and having the United States participate in the most minimal way in international peacekeeping, that the very idea of dissolving armies right and left is... well it's attractive and you think would be a waste to people's times. However! People who share your goals and mine do have some things they could be working on I think the United States at the United Nations How many, okay first question is how many which one of you two were held against your will in Mount Carmel? I didn't even want to come out. What do you mean against your will? We're just going to start it off with the son of death.

13:01 The young men that came in from outside during the siege and snuck in there through the FBI cordon that they had around us. And both of them left before it was over, we didn't... But even before the siege I mean everyone anyone could basically join you just had to kind of have David had the open door principle. Even when he saw all these men coming out with guns Had the door open, he wanted them to not fire but come in. And all they was interested in was shooting and they did! We weren't shooting at them because we were into shooting people...not with guns

13:46 is people have come and gone, you know not being held against their will or tortured or any of this kind of stuff belies some of the statements that have been put out by the media or by the government. Right Or even former members And another thing too is I understand a lot of people had jobs Oh yes Until the very end They contributed their time to the church But before the very end, yes. We had one girl who was a linguist and she worked in Canada and she was actually an overseer of all the school system

14:29 to see that they, what she set up was done in the school system and she more or less controlled that. She also worked for the United Nations because she was very good in French and other languages We had a lawyer in our mess We had men who were very, like one young man he was very good at computer. That's before computers. There were a lot of people came from England and they were social workers. They had excellent... most of our people

15:13 And, you know in order to teach somebody something you have to have people who are willing to be taught and have learned how to study. Have learned how listen and evaluate. We had people like that with us. So all this about us being so illiterate they call as many other things true Do you have any, what was that Paul Jones or there was a Jones, one fella in there worked for the post office. David Jones

15:53 I mean, but I know that you all had various of Mike was a bike Schroeder the one they got shot in the back or When he was right behind around the market we had schoolteachers and we have people all had good job. They all had excellent job Wayne Martin was very well educated Wayne Martin was one of the most brilliant man I've ever talked with He could talk on any subject. He was a professor he was He also was a lawyer. I did a lot of research with him, he was ultra polite You know i have worked for many men over the years in different positions and offices and different places...I never worked for man when you would suggest an idea who would not take it run with it and go to the boss make them think he had thought about it

16:51 he was really an exceptional person. But the others were too, in a wrong way. Every one of them had abilities. And another thing to you there was initially the media tried to make it look like that this was a white separatist group This was... A third! This is a group with all different races and cultures. A third of the world's black people Right So that had to be dismissed We have Chinese Japanese Australia, we had people from England. We had people from the... What's the one near Australia? New Zealand. All over the country I mean Canada! We had them from everywhere and like I say there was Japanese Chinese and all different races it was Indian as well as blacks and just about Mexicans they were not just

17:50 Members, but we live together. Yeah, you know we got along But to me sure you have a little bit of infighting among I've never seen so many different kinds of people get along so well which to me is indicates the spirit of God working. That's right We had something, they came to learn something and what they came to learn and find out was more important than all the quibbling and squabbles and daily little frustrations that might arise because of the situations They were also very readily without any fist fights or anything like that most of time we got along great You never saw them in

18:38 I didn't expect the men to get, you know... when they would really get upset to start wanting a fight. There was none of that. The women, it's very hard for women to live together. Yeah and we all did. And yet we all lived together I think the highest count was 150. That was during 92, by the time that the ATF raided the place i think there's something like about 130. How many square feet? How many acres are several hundred well we have 77 acres out of it but the building wasn't uh yeah that was a big building and it was virtually paid going to be paid for completely right?

19:21 44 rooms that people used. A lot of those rooms had two and three and four people in it, depending on... This was built from church donations by the people who worked outside? First we used wood from the old houses that were originally there then we bought lumber if we had to. Let's go right into then I want each of you comment on this February 28, 1993. I heard about this through the media and right off the bat okay. Tell us what were you doing? What did you do? They brought me here because we're in different cities running paper

20:43 was talking about David and of course they were given... Well I went, uh, I could-I was trying to read it and then I decided no wait till everybody finished. And then I'll get the paper and go upstairs and read it so I ran upstairs. When I came down everyone had just dissipated going into their own rooms And I hunted around and picked up the different sections to finish the article. We had two big windows in the foyer, and I was in the far window, and as I looked out, I saw these vehicles coming in! And I stopped for my room, and I look out of the second window, when I do see that they're coming in, and I knew they would not go down the road because there's nothing down there...I could see that they were going to stop in front of the trailers. And I wondered what in the world are men gonna do?

21:42 Lots of times the men would have something that they would be doing and the women would not be absolutely conscious of everything they were doing at the time. You thought it might be, it was Branch Tavis? Oh yes I thought it was somebody coming and had gone out and got these two big cabins And so I ran up the back way to my room and threw the papers on my bed. And I was about to lay down when I heard this terrific noise, I knew it was helicopters. I went to the window because I was in the back of the room and looked out and when I did saw these three helicopters in V formation

22:24 toward the end of the building, the north side and the big water tower that was still standing. And they were firing and I know it was...I just stood there stunned because I couldn't believe this was happening you know it's like looking at a movie and then realizing is reality and they were fighting and they were firing at David's room There was no other building in that particular time And I stood there watching, and I could see the shooting. And I could hear it and knew what was going on. Then they started to turn. Well they were between the second and third floor. And I'm on the second floor. And I realized if they start to turn, I very likely am gonna get hit. They're down on the floor as their turning. Of course as they are turning, they are not firing until they get around a way

23:29 Now there was no shooting before that. And then apparently, I figured by the time they got to the front of the building... That started in the front They had already hit our water tanks and killed Peter Jant? No, no, Peter Jant was... It was Winston Blake that was on his bed with a piece of toast in his hand Right! And it had gone through the water tank and went into Jaydeen was up on the, in her bed. Up on the... She had the second tier and she was on the second floor down from my room and she had just given her baby to her older daughter when she got shot and killed in bed. And after that it was just shooting and everybody hit the floor! All of women took their children put them under them

24:29 And I kept thinking, they're going to come over that roof. You know if I had come in and attacked a place that's where I would have come it was most vulnerable spot because that roof was only about three feet at the most to the bottom of the windows and the windows were open And I thought, along where our rooms were and then went along the hallway. And I thought surely somebody's going to try it so I kept looking at that and they kept yelling at me to get down because one of the girls that was doing this, me to get down she said you're gonna get hit because she could feel a bullets go through her hair and she is laying on floor how did he get here? I don't know anyway

25:19 what was going on at that particular time. Nobody moved, even when I left the women were still on the floor with the children because we had no idea whether they were gonna come back or not and they kept it up for about 45 minutes. Clive do you want to go ahead and remember back? I was gonna go back a little bit further than what Catherine started with The media and of course the government have put out this idea that we were expecting this attack or siege, whatever. And that we were all busily arming ourselves and waiting in ambush for them when just recently

26:05 the insurance company out of Atlanta for the Cox newspaper, Synagate paid off the ATF in a court case they had against the Waco newspaper and local TV station Channel 10. They were suing them saying that they had tipped us off and we knew they were coming and we were prepared for them so to take you back a little bit further We actually knew that something was going on two months before February 28th, but we didn't know who was involved and we didn't know what it was all about. All we knew is there were some men that had moved into the house across the street that were acting very strange. They were shooting out in the backyard of their house

26:58 The windows were always dark at night even though we knew they were there. A lot of strange things going on, they didn't bring any suitcases with clothes and things like that so we kind of felt that perhaps being watched I think probably the biggest idea that came to most people's mind was maybe they belong to the immigration people, trying to see if there are any illegal immigrants inside. And so this went on for almost like six or seven weeks And at some point in that observation that they were doing, they made contact by a couple of them came over and visited one day. And eventually it led to this ATF agent which we found out what he was later by the name of Robert Rodriguez who said he wanted to start having Bible studies with David Koresh and so he started to come over and visit

27:56 He'd come over for a couple of hours and maybe have a private Bible study with David. On the day before the raid, he had spent the whole day with us. It was Saturday so we had our regular meetings and he'd spent the whole day At the end of the day, he indicated that he had to leave town. But when he got back after several days, he wanted to move in with us if he could—if he'd be allowed so that he could have more studies and kind of just enter into the whole thing we were involved in—the daily living and Bible studies. So David welcomed him and said fine!

28:40 Unbeknownst to me on the 28th, as Catherine mentioned he shows up that morning with a second edition of this series that the newspaper was writing about us or about David called The Sinful Messiah. He had come out there with copies of this and I didn't know that he'd even showed up that day because i wasn't expecting him to come back It was only probably because it was raining that day that most of the guys had not gone out to work. We'd had breakfast and basically were hanging around our rooms when at some point, I'm not real sure of the time—it couldn't have been

29:23 too much later than when Robert left, I guess. Um...I heard some noise out in the cafeteria area a lot of people you know and there's kind of hubbub going on so i went out there to see what was going on and it was at that point that people were saying well we've just heard something is going to happen somebody's coming and so about the time I walked in you know, became aware of this going on. David Koresh walked in from the other side into the kitchen area and basically confirmed that he just heard somebody was coming out and said I want everybody to stay cool. He says, you know, just go back to your rooms and I'm gonna go down to the front door and talk to them

30:10 And so I went back to my room. He went out the other way, down the hall toward the front door and next thing I heard was David's voice at the front door saying hey wait a minute there are women and children in here you know let's talk about this! All hell broke loose just shots, it seemed like hundreds of shots coming in from the outside in through the front door and my immediate reaction was, my God it's a massacre. Whoever went to the front door is bound of being hit with all this fuselage of bullets that had come in so I went running down the hall and first person I came to was Perry Jones who had

30:53 dragged himself up the hall, several feet anyway from the front door area and he was screaming that he'd been shot and he was clutching his stomach. And so I bet O'Rimmon was trying to console him And I says, what happened? He says well they started shooting at the front door. He says David got shot, I'm shot so I said hang in there for a minute and I ran down to the front door expecting to see bodies all over the place and to my surprise there wasn't anyone there. The whole foyer area inside of the front door was empty but the whole wall, the front wall was just riddled with bullets and some of the windows had been shut out

31:38 And so I ran back to Perry and helped him back to his room, put him on a bunk bed. Went and got him... tried to get some pain pills because he was just screaming with the agony of the wounds he had. Somebody came to me about time I put him down on the bed and they said well Winston's dead. Winston Blake. I said where is he at? He said up in his room So we went up towards his room And I could hear all this water running and thought, that's strange. What's causing that? As I routed the door into his room Winston was laying on the floor in a pool of blood and water All this water was pouring through these holes at an angle into the room The bullet holes were high on the outside and low as they came in I thought, my God! They're shooting from helicopters or planes

32:34 So just everything was turmoil, I mean there's chaos, people screaming and then... And uh.. I end up running back down the hall. Uh.. And uh Wayne Martin that's the lawyer that we had out there he was in the process of by the time i got down to completely other end of the hall from where I was staying and um He was calling the Sheriff Department and it took him 45 minutes to get a ceasefire. Well, excuse me 45 minutes to get in contact with the ATF he didn't even have contact with them took about two and half hours to get the thing stopped and by that time we found out that we had five on the inside dead another four or five wounded because we were beginning to hear on the radio

33:33 And we knew that they were wounded on the other side too, you know the ATF. Throughout that shootout, I mean there was a lot of firing at the beginning and then it was more sporadic for the rest of time. And when I had a break you might say from running back and forth with these 911 calls and checking on the wounded men, I'd ask people who's out there? Who is shooting? What is going on? Where are they? And I tried to look out a window without exposing myself but I couldn't see anybody I never even saw an ATF agent until they all stood up to leave. You've probably seen that footage in the news where they got up and I thought, my God! Where have they all gone from? It was traumatic. It was scary yet it was actually considering women and children

34:33 people that were inside, that were under this tremendous attack, this tremendous volley of firing actually handled themselves very calmly I thought. By and large you know what I mean? That doesn't mean there wasn't any screaming there was people in pain and there's uh...people who were scared but I thought they handled themselves pretty good and they certainly were not involved in any ambush. The first time I ran upstairs, as Catherine said here's the whole hallway and the second floor we thought you couldn't even get down the hall because of women laying on top of children trying to protect them but there were bullets coming up through the floor they're coming down through the ceiling through the walls

35:12 It was just, nobody knew whether they were gonna be next. You know it's a hit. Actually it's a miracle that so few did receive gunshot wounds in there on that first go around you know? I'd like to inject something too. Clive went back awhile and I'd like to go back awhile because we had before the women all moved upstairs They lived downstairs, a lot of them lived downstairs. They were in different areas and the men were in different areas and we had... David had a feeling that from what was being told him by people outside that someone was going to come to try get the children so there was a rule made that children would not go out unless they were accompanied by some adult

36:12 And so when they went into the huge sandbox that we had, there was always a couple of adults there. The children had already been taken care of by the women that had come from the government to see if they were being abused and I talked to Joyce and Joyce told me that they were not abused—they could see that—they were very intelligent, they answered every question, they were very polite, and they were exceptional children So we knew that we weren't going to have a problem with the government about any of our children being abused. But, a lot of the families outside who had heard all these terrible stories... We were afraid that some of them might come and try to take them That something could happen so we'd lose the children

37:10 And David told us that the women were all going to live on the second floor with the children, to protect him. The men were gonna move down to the first floor and that's when the shift came That's what we really and truly expected Someone was gonna try to take our children away from us Of course they wanted too but no one ever did I also wanted to tell about when after the shooting stopped, I had tried to go and lay out in the hallway. Couldn't find a place to lay down. It was just covered with people so I stayed in my room and like I told you, I was always looking out that window but when I did go downstairs, I passed some things out to the women after awhile and I'd gone downstairs

38:10 And Kathy was, uh...Kathy Schroeder was filling everything she could find with water because we were losing our water. When Winston had got shot Well I-I was down there so I helped her take every available clean article whatever it was pan or bottle or anything with water as much as we could because we had a running board in the kitchen And I went down around. I didn't go too far because we still didn't know if they were going to start shooting at us again, but as I went by the windows when I came out...I came out the second of March when I walked by all of the rooms, I could see all the glass on the floor there was no panes of glass left in the windows The Venetian blinds were all hanging on one side

39:08 And everything was in a tall mess. And when I went downstairs and saw how that had been shot up, it was full of holes! The ceilings, the floors, the walls...the windows were out It was really....we'd been besieged There's no other way for it Let me just mention right now, Catherine, that you want to get into the actual 51 days This is significant that you were the one actually here. How were you volunteered? Were you... Did they bring out this...? Well, first off there was a tape that David Kresh wanted to bring out to play on primetime radio. Well David was laying upstairs in the second floor he had got shot somebody came after me about six o'clock in the morning I don't know what time I laid down and told me that Dave wanted to see me and I went downstairs and He said I want you to take this tape out And I said oh I do not wanna go out

40:09 I want to stay right here. And he said, listen to her! Of course all women were sitting around listening to her and then he started explaining to me He said, I want you take this down. He said, I want the world to know that I want this to go around so that people will understand what we're like You know? He was so concerned...I knew at the time he was concerned and we might be left without anyone help us Of course, that didn't happen. I have seen him come out of other accidents and things that happened to him miraculously and it was a pure miracle when i talked with there were two women who had taken care of his wound the nurse told me the bullet went into his flesh and there was bone there and it zagged then zigged around that bone came out on the other side

41:16 And she said, I have never... The two women had been nurses for years and years. They were in their 50's or 55-60 something like that. And they said, I have never seen anything like it in my life and I saw a lot of indication of the blood that he'd lost. They said he'd lost so much blood and that was why he was weak and that is why he looked so white That's why he looked like he was dying His wrist and hand had been hit and his side had been hit. him talking about what the kind of countering some of the demonization? No, no. It was a study too to give people an idea what we believed taking place and everyone here is of course nervously awaiting the outcome

42:25 building, lots of armored vehicles moving back and forth outside the building knocking holes in it. We have not seen any of the Branch Davidians and we have not seen any federal agents anywhere in any of these pictures most of these are on our big lens cameras that can shoot over that two mile area. Jim I understand you heard something that sounded like gunshots this morning but might be something else altogether? That's right. Flash bangs or stun grenades, perhaps is what they were We heard the first shots at about 630 Central Time 2 and we've heard one later and several more since Those indeed could be stun grenades which would be something they would use if they wanted to go in and get people out Other than that, we haven't seen any Jim I read these people might be gassed Have you heard anything along those lines? There are unconfirmed reports that gas has been thrown into buildings but those have not been confirmed yet

43:16 What is going on now, Vicki? Good morning. Good morning Paula. Just minutes ago we had some movement from inside the compound there was a banner that was unfurled from one of the upper windows We believe that banner reads we want our phone fixed That may refer to something that happened early this morning about 530 Central Time Negotiators called into the compound. They told the person who answered the phone, we are going to start gassing you if you don't come out! There was no movement apparently negotiators say that person hung up the phone and At this point, seeing the banner we don't know if that means the person hung up or if perhaps there is some trouble with the phone lines. What happened then was about a half hour later just before first light, a tank moved very close to the compound and in fact knocked a gaping hole into the wall of the compound. Shortly after that another tank moved in. That tank moved around to another side and pulled down what seemed to be an entire section

44:18 Not long after that, another tank pulled up. The back of the tank opened up three federal agents got out and threw what appeared to be gas canisters inside of the compound we saw some white smoke come billowing out after that so apparently on this 51st day Federal Agents Patience is running quite thin Dickie, I know that you've asked federal agents about what type of gas they're using and they won't confirm it for you but it appears as though it is very windy there. Do you have or anybody have any way of knowing if this gas is really sort of seeping into the building or underneath?

44:54 I don't know. have preferred to do the entire time as they were cleaning debris out, as they were getting a few people who have come out of the compound. What they've done is bring the tanks up and they used the tanks to shield them. They stayed quite far back but today they actually gotten closest we ever seen them to the compound." If in fact there's this underground network which federal agents confirmed underneath this housing what you suppose is strategy behind

45:38 We understand that a tank has just gone through the front door of the compound, just gone through the front door right now. Yesterday, the tanks came along and they pushed all the old cars out on the front. They took away all the debris. There was a small wall in front of the front door, they knocked that wall down and now just seconds ago they have actually knocked down the front door. Now to get back to your question about the underground tanker we have understood all the way through that cult members were using some sort of underground kind of basement

46:18 that for target practice. So I think what federal agents are afraid of is that once they were threatened with the gas going in, the cult members may have gone down underneath. Okay we've got about three minutes worth of pictures and i'm gonna go ahead and let Clive talk over what we're seeing here then we'll get to some phone calls. We had callers online holding for a long time. Okay bring them up Hello, hello you're on the air. How you doing? Good you I'm doing okay Good evening good Evening I'd like to say this is a something that I've been following for I guess since the day it kind of came through the attention of the public and followed it all the way through and

47:13 During my last year or so at college, I was the one that was very outspoken about the issue. And you get a pretty bad stigma placed on you when you side with the non-popular side. And actually does the name Stuart Wright ring a bell to you folks? I've heard of him yes He was at the hearing, wrote a book He's a psychology, sociology professor? Doesn't ring a bell to you do you think? I think he said that you heard the name. Yeah i've heard the name but don't know the man. Okay well... What are you talking about now? No I mean anything they have shown over the past few years Do you watch the normal programming just to see what they're saying about it

48:03 Like on Dateline this week, they reveal the truth about what happened in the compound and then they show The jewels or some crap you know given up a line about what happened in the compound. Do y'all watch those programs? Sometimes we do but I work during the day so I don't always get to see all of them Tell ya the truth, I'm kind of tired of listening to the outside world tell me what it was like when I was there I agree, yeah. I can completely see where that would come in How do you feel about the hearings? I had some hopes going into the congressional hearing since I appeared up there That some good or at least the truth would come out Those hopes were dashed basically because we saw the politics involved in both the congressional hearings and the senate hearings

49:02 one side playing devil's advocate and so forth. But even when facts came out, and individuals were exposed you might say perjuring themselves or admitting to certain things nothing was ever done about it And that certainly didn't help our friends who are still in prison I'm a little upset over the hearings. You almost get to the point where you figure it's a waste of time, but what I keep talking to people is that there are still plenty of people out there who don't know what went on and then the truth of the matter. And you might say the grassroots audience

49:55 But as far as reaching the heart of those that were involved, such as the ATF or the FBI or politicians or whatever. Seems like it's just a game with them and nothing good seems to come out of it I'm afraid I would encourage you, Clive, as we talked before the show to not give up. The world is so wicked right now that any little bit of righteousness that anybody can speak...the world needs it! There's no question this whole world

50:31 I'll keep speaking as long as we've got people still locked up that were found innocent by a jury. I'll keep talking out, but you know it does get discouraging when you see obvious, uh... As I say perjury in the court and nothing ever gets done about the ones that are perpetrating them. Can't we just talk over? Okay, so we're gonna change of tape out for.. okay So we'll be back in what about a minute? Okay We'll go back to this in a minute with quick slight we gotta change the tape up there Back on two axis channels Okay, okay. Go ahead. Most of these signs that you're seeing portrayed on the screen were put up by a lady who's basically a squatter out at Mount Carmel She set herself up out there to kind of take advantage of the tourist trade and so she has a lot of signs and a lot of them are misleading she certainly has some wild stories that she tells people

51:46 You know a lot of them really need to be addressed. Well, she's collected plenty of money That's why I said she's taking advantage now. In fact we got your daughter's stone coming up here Clive. I hope this isn't too tough on you. No it's fine What is all of this? Now this is... This here was a trailer that a lady who was in her late 80s had been living in. She was not there on the day of the raid, David had sent most of the older ladies over to live about five miles away at a trailer

52:27 because it had hot and cold running water, it had central heating and so forth. And Mount Carmel at that time was still pretty primitive so leading up to the winter he sent the ladies over there but they ran the trailer with the tanks. That's my daughter, 18 year old daughter that died in a fire. That's David Koresh's stone yes We just recently learned that they stole one of his children's stones, just in the last couple weeks. You invariably get tourists taking souvenirs. That's one of the motorcycles.

53:10 Just about all the guys that were there, David had brought the motorcycles. We had a trailer that we put right there you're seeing the razor wire but they had it all around us A lot of people want to know why didn't come right out? We have barbed wire fence around us for one thing That's one of the reasons Well that razor wire was worse than any barbed wire fence. I did not realize what razor wire was until i went back on El Camo and saw it, and thought...I could hardly believe they'd use a thing like that! This is one of the buses we had dragged down toward the lake about 8 months after the fire somebody came and torched it both of the buses out there have been torched since

53:58 April 19th, 93. All the big boss was in Perkingham. This is a lot of the concrete from the foundations of the building that the ATF and private contractors have scooped up. What you're seeing there, that hole in the ground, is the beginning of a tunnel that came out of the bus that was buried underground That's the only tunnel in the whole place, in spite of all the stories you've heard. There was only one tunnel that led into our storm shelter that we were in the process of building there were no tunnels that lead away from the building there was no possibility of anybody escaping through tunnels or anything like that I think we had tunnels running to the houses

54:52 There's no such thing. We didn't have to need tunnels, we were close to one another The houses were closed they weren't far apart and the white building you just saw used to be a dairy years ago and more recently just at the time of the raid was being used for working on cars That's what's left about swimming pool after they dumped a lot of concrete and burned lumber and stuff into it That's another shot of the swimming pool I believe

55:29 Mm-hmm. We certainly enjoyed the swimming pool, the children loved it they used to have great fun there That's me actually walking with Daniel Martin he was with us at the time we were traveling around Well I would toss a mug up over to your place that night Listen, this is all even depressing and we climb in Catherine. I never even lived there It's not just the building that's gone But we had trees you know a big playpen for children beautiful pecan tree We ate they knocked down in front of my house they were Palosa trees that fate ripped out They did not leave anything

56:22 that had any beauty to it at all. They made it as desolate as they possibly could. This actually looks quite green after several years of rain on it, but what it doesn't show is that all the topsoil was scraped away. The place looked like a desert with the tank soil... That's part of the underground bus which they completely tore up and reburied. That was the entrance I mentioned into the tunnel. It came out of the front door of the bus And then it went into the storm shelter. That's one thing Mount Carmel was famous for, was its sunsets It was a beautiful area especially when we had the horses and cows and they would be grazing in the field This sign is put up by somebody else that doesn't belong to any of our people at all

57:28 No, that didn't. I wouldn't put up a U of M like that. We did not put any of that up The only things we've put up since the fire have been...we planted a tree for each one who died and we've put a stone in front of each tree All these other things asking for donations and supposedly telling you what went on is all the imagination of other people A lot of it, Emo Roadman, several others This was the bus that the media hid behind during the shootout, but of course it was later pushed back there by the tank and It's been burned and gutted. That's right Some of them ruined everything bicycles and things that were run over by tanks we had go-karts for the children We had motorcycles and bicycles And they just tore everything up

58:19 You know, when the children saw them running over their bicycles and go-carts and things they could not... They were so upset because they didn't understand why they were doing it. Tell you the truth even the adults couldn't understand why they were doing it because it was just sheer malice, sheer hate And its a shame to live with that in your life My comment on the flag a lot of people have commented. How come you had an Israeli flag flying from the flagpole? That is not an Israeli flag no that is there's a six-pointed flying seraph or serpent as it's described in Isaiah chapter 6 The amazing thing about that flag was that place burnt for a long time and The flames were nowhere near the flag I

59:18 when all of a sudden, if you're watching it at a particular time the flag sort of left the flagpole and took off like a bird and went right into the fire. Disappeared. There... Doesn't matter Okay well go ahead yeah go ahead There's another squatter Yeah I knew that! I knew that! I knew that! There is another person who is trying to get some money from our problems and disaster You know Everybody's getting rich off of this except us. We don't get one we haven't got a dime from this thing and not that I want to make any money on it, but the thing is that You know it's been very hard for many of the people that came out of there and all they're living on is Pensions yeah pensions Social security you know that sort of thing They don't give you much to do that well. Yeah, let's face it you had your

1:00:18 You had your house destroyed. You virtually paid off 77 acres... We had our family. Your family and then you just, the so-called government that was doing it for the children went in there and destroyed your all's home? Yeah they were saving them. And then they buried up the evidence They saved him with CS gas. Yes, they wanted to make sure that I took care of them and they took care of them alright. They took care everybody else there Let's go ahead and try another one, another call here. There is one thing though I'd like to inject that many of the people that were there fighting us were very ignorant of what they were doing

1:01:01 It's the people that were running it place. You mean the BATF, the actual football? A lot of them were new and they didn't know what was going on They'd been trained to do a certain thing and so they did it because they thought they had to do it And you're on the payroll Yes but you see is just like somebody has told something and they don't know what the law is They can be told it and then they feel they have to do it. And the thing is, they don't have to do it. But you see these people, these young people that were put in... You know, they didn't know what they were doing but the ones that got up there and spouted all this, these lies, absolute lies, and they knew they were lies

1:01:48 They're the ones that are more responsible. They're the ones that God looks down at and is disgusted with, I'm gonna take give them a second double portion. Let me go ahead and read it Kathy let's see we want to do it like this or? Well just you know we'll go to the car okay let's go ahead okay tell us about the concrete room that the children were in for safekeeping and tanks went smashing into the walls, collapsing it on the children. Was that how the children were killed? In this market... Yeah follow up. Are you inserting gas into the bunker or school bus, into the underground areas where are expecting to be? The question is have we put in gas in the bunkers and then the school bus yes we did what we tried to do was deprive them of use as a means escape away from building Yes sir What's the status of Vernon Howells' burglary

1:02:42 His Camaro, with all 427 cubic inches is still in good shape. He was very concerned about that yesterday In fact that was probably the most violent he's acted in the 51 days we've been here but we treated it with care The question is there a point where the gas builds up and does become lethal? Not at the dosage levels that were using The question was the status of the children. We do not know if they have gas masks as well, but we have gone to extraordinary steps to ensure that the dosages being utilized are well below medium lethal ranges

1:03:31 that the dosages being utilized are well below the medium lethal ranges of CS gas. We would not use dosage's that would harm those children, nor would those dosage's cause damages to their lungs or other types of injuries there have been some unfortunate reporting about that if tear gas were utilized it would deprive the children of oxygen and it perhaps could be fatal. Was that how the children were killed? Well, that's what Crow told me when we were... there was quite a few of us at the Brittany Hotel. And that's what he said. He said they poked out the hole in the building and went into this

1:04:21 building, cement building that was very thick that had been our refrigeration where we had our refrigeration and it knocked down their roof part of the roof which came down and hit the children in the women that were there. And he said a lot of them had been hurt by that and died from it. Did you want to comment on that? Well, that's one theory that the tank caused the roof cave in but there is also another theory being put around which I have no proof for at this point but its believed that charges were set and blew the hole in the roof and decapitated some people inside the room

1:05:04 That's definitely my question is what are they doing driving tanks into the structure with men and women and children? I'm gonna say we're gonna get into that here as the show progresses, but you're on air Yes, sir National TV knows about David was studying the seventh field. They come up with some answers. That's all I ever heard Yeah Davis gave us a He instructed us on the seven sails. The thing is that none of us can give the seven sails, we do not have the same spirit that he had. David over the negotiating phones... David had told the FBI negotiators that God has spoken to him and asked him or given him a go ahead to write out

1:06:05 a brief explanation of the Seven Seals, which the negotiators had sent in supplies so that he could go ahead and begin that project. And he did indeed get started on it the night before The gassing. They had told him he could have all the time he needed and the very next day they started ramming the building with tanks, injecting gas and so the project was never finished we do have The portion that he did write, one of those women that survived the fire came away with a disc, computer disc with the portion that had gotten finished and we'd be quite willing to send it to you if you want to contact us. We'll give you an address later on as to where you can write. Do we have another call on hold? It's been waiting for awhile just a quick question or comment because I want to get into the... Hello how are you doing

1:07:06 Hello? Yes, ma'am. You're on the air. Yes good evening. How you doing? I'm doing fine. I wanted to call and thank Clive and Catherine for being on tonight We really appreciate this we knew from day one our family that ATF was responsible number 1 for this Janet Reno every one of them were behind us And i wanted to thank them for being on tonight For teaching the American people Coming out with the truth more people need to know about it. You know myself my family our friends We all noticed we were devastated by it, and we didn't believe any of the lies that were being told Thank you for your support God bless you too. Thank you very glad to be here

1:07:51 Before we take that break, though I want to ask you all first...I want to just get this in kind of quickly if we could because the last part of the show I want to get into. Like you said, you have current people now that are getting beaten in these prisons and stuff so we wanna get into some of the as far what I would like to see done as far as indictments for tank drivers all the way up through the people who gave the orders because these people are not being held accountable for what I consider to be murderous act But until that time, I want to just ask you about the 51... Okay first off just quickly because this is the one question everybody asks me and I've even forgotten the good response. Why didn't y'all come out? First of all

1:08:39 there was a certain amount of trepidation when the ATF evacuated after the shootout. There's quite a bit of fear, you might say on the part of people that were in there expecting them to perhaps wait till nightfall and come back in and attack us. Of course you know they were supposed to have been relieved of their part by this FBI at the end of that day from that point on over the negotiation phones we were being told even though they wanted everybody to come out, they did not want us all just coming out in all directions because they had the place surrounded. They had sniper nests all over you know in various localities and they apparently had a hard time contacting these people. They weren't all hooked up by phones or whatever and so if...we would be

1:09:36 setting ourselves up perhaps to be shot if we just all came out and as I say it, out of any exit or at any given time. So I was given understand that it all had to be set up over the phones underneath the compound but gas will permeate those areas as well so again its not...we're not anticipating they are going to flow out in any second right now but it has been quite substantial yes sir has left the compound, have you broken up the walls? all firing at our vehicles when they do appear. Those who are weak, we believe that they're surrounded with firearms and probably are not being allowed to leave. Those who are totally loyal to Koresh

1:10:35 It's going to have to require extreme discomfort, we believe. And probably a signal from Mr. Frisch that now is the time to get out of here. Yes, it's time to get out of here. Can you show us where on the map are you inserting the evidence? Well I can't show you all because we're virtually surrounded. Over the negotiation phones were being told even though they wanted everybody to come out, they did not want us all just coming out in all directions because they had the place surrounded. They had sniper nests all over the... you know in various localities and they apparently had a hard time contacting these people. They weren't all hooked up by phones or whatever and so we would be

1:11:20 setting ourselves up perhaps to be shot if we just all came out, as I say it out of any exit or at any given time. So I was given to understand that it all had to be set up over the phones and for several weeks people were coming out on a regular basis there was over 30 people came out of there as a result of negotiations that were going on being setup Me personally, I felt that the women and children would be first. Maybe the elderly and perhaps the guys would be last one so I was quite prepared to stay until my turn came you might say everybody I know that was in there had their bags packed we were fully expecting them to come out as a result of the treachery on part

1:12:09 The team the FBI team that were on the ground a tactical team Seemed like every time somebody came out or every time we complied with what they asked us to do We would be punished in some way. They would destroy something you know, they would threaten and they cut off our electricity they were playing all this music and and you know, the bright lights and so forth. Everything that seemed to be done negative when we complied with what they wanted so there came a point where everybody just basically said forget it! You know I mean... We either all come out together or not at all sort of thing and it was kind of standoff That's the feeling on part of people as individuals On other hand we also had religious situation that lot of people don't understand

1:13:01 God had told David to wait. They had not complied with his request to play the tape that Catherine brought out in prime time, that was the agreement they didn't play it in prime time probably very few people in this country heard of at all and so God told David to wait And we waited, as I say, partly for an indication or some kind of sign from God or a green light. That green light came when David was instructed by God to begin writing the seven seals but the FBI were impatient and April 19th they overrode the negotiators who were telling him to take his time and write this out then everybody would come out

1:13:51 They just decided to come in with the gas and demolish the building. I don't know whether you got the footage tonight, but there's one footage where it says that their aim was to isolate us all in pockets and by the end of the morning they'd pretty well done that. Those of us who were in the chapel were not able to get down to those who are in the kitchen area and the ones upstairs were pretty well blocked off from getting up and downstairs because they were demolished by the tanks and so forth There's probably a lot of people that would have liked to got out of the fire once the fire started, uh...that were unable to. We know for a fact that there were people who came out on the off side from the cameras where the media was not available and take pictures who we're shot

1:14:36 they were trying to escape. So the bottom line is you really didn't trust this government? We didn't trust the goverment, they hadn't given us any reason to trust them. I think that's kind of it as far as i understand that. Um...I wanted ask Mr. Jamara, I'm actually confused and don't have a firm opinion and want to get clarification In the tapes on March 4th, it's been alleged that David Koresh was the person who initially called about the milk or did the FBI suggest the milk? Did David Koresh ask for milk? The report here says the FBI offered milk in return. Did Koresh initiate the milk request? I think so, yeah And did... was this on the tapes let's get her that Heather Jones out and then we'll send you the milk? I'm sorry would you repeat there was noise behind me i couldn't hear you Let's get her out and then let me send you the milk

1:15:32 In other words, the core question here is that the FBI offered milk in return for the release of some children. Yesterday we heard that Koresh believed that the promise was violated because... and that the tapes suggest there is a phrase now it may be other phrases in it too let's get her out and then let me send you the milk Well this was an effort to...this is March 4th This was an effort to establish a quid pro quo exchange here And the next day she came out Heather Jones But that was an effort to get that done. She did come out, but that exchange was an effort by the negotiator to establish that type of relationship and communicate with... So do you believe then not sending the milk after she came out the next day gave Koresh some reason to doubt?

1:16:19 whether or not you were going to follow through on the negotiated deal. You don't believe that was a negotiated deal, send her out and we'll send you milk? I don't think it was at all he chose let her go for his reasons He never get involved himself in the quid pro quo Thank you Mr. Chairman We've been engaged over several days as i think y'all can tell asking a series of what i think are very insightful questions and receiving a lot of information uh... left you leave from here with the impression that everybody on that side of the aisle is just can't say enough nice things about your were all the bad guys uh... specifically the gentleman from michigan previously praised you and i'm sure he was sincere in that

1:16:57 But just two years ago in testimony and when these hearings were held, he called what you did a disgrace. So there's more than meets the ear in these things. What we're trying to do certainly over here is ask some questions to avoid these problems coming up in the future and I would certainly hope that y'all would share in that Mr. Kavanaugh having my hand here amount of Play-Doh. Mr Bush if you could this is just standard Play-Doh If that were a flashbang grenade or a stun grenade, the same thing which was live and pin had been pulled would you feel comfortable just holding that in your hand? Well Mr. Barr, a flashbang grenade ejects a cardboard tube out the bottom so if you knew you could probably have it hold it in the proper way to have an ejected

1:17:51 A flashbang grenade, my answer is no. I would not want to hold it but a flashbang grenade has no fragmentation at all. No and I know that and don't anticipate where i'm going with it. I mean for you to be defensive there's no reason too Earlier today there was testimony from Mr Schumer that these are not devices they can harm somebody in fact they can can't they? well there is no fragmentation there is concussion right and a blast the flashbang the same as the stun grenade? Stun grenade yes sir. okay are those are classified at destructive devices under uh... twenty six usc section fifty eight forty five f aren't they? Yes sir, they are And as matter of fact ATF in court takes a position in convicting people that possess these devices that they are destructive device is that true? That's correct. Now if it can kill people is that true

1:18:41 I think it would be, you'd have to hold it close to your body or... It's possible. Certainly yes sir. Well a gentleman by the name of Warren L Parker an explosives enforcement officer, Bureau of ATF on May 11 1994 in court said under oath that they are designed to help kill the suspect while not endangering the law enforcement officer when they're used for those purposes. But anyway, again I'm not being critical of you or anything but there were some mischaracterizations deliberately this morning that i wanted to clear up with regard to these The question that I have relates to what appear to be some very serious miscalculations on the part of law enforcement officials trying to gauge the response of people inside.

1:19:28 facility there both at the beginning of this we had agents testify that despite the fact that the folks on the inside knew what was coming they had amassed large numbers of weapons which is obvious from looking at the questions and hearing y'all's testimony. The agent said they were stunned, they were surprised to what happened And then on the other end of what we're talking about right now, going in with I guess what you all consider somewhat more benign activities such as the introduction of the tear gas. Somewhat some surprise on a part of the firing that came out there and so forth and the question is

1:20:08 I have here an autopsy photo, and i'm not going to introduce it because its rather gross. And its very sad... Its a photograph of one year old child. It's been burned, right in the middle of the remains is a ferret round. Right smack in the middle of this one year old child is a ferret round with CS gas I find it hard to follow your thinking if the activities on April 19th were considered to be benign. They caused a lot of deaths, we may never know exactly who died A lot of autopsies reveal that people died from suffocation and debris falling on them but we don't-may never know how much of that was caused from the walls caving in when the tanks came in an so forth or how many others might have died from the ferret rounds coming in

1:21:03 Do y'all feel, and again I don't mean to be... critical, but I think there were some bad misgaging of responses on the other side. Do you all recognize that in hindsight certainly which is what we're all operating under here that there were miscalculations with regard to how these folks in there would respond to what they correctly identified as aggressive moves and I'm not saying the aggressive moves are necessarily unjustified Is that is that a concern to you always he kind of looked back on this whole process? Mr.. Jamar think the inability to get people come out there with some gas was surprised to us the fact it made The way the course was able to control those people such, but they didn't get out and the fact that they end up all dying in a I consider murder suicide

1:22:06 I think there were 17 who was shot in there. When that was and how they were shot, I don't know. I think you're saying here's a parrot ram lying in the remains of one-year old child and concluding that child died from that parrot ram is contrary to the autopsy, I would think. Anybody who got this gas on their skin was in terrible pain. A lot of guys were screaming if they go it on their skin We, uh... Let me insert this. They found one baby that had a ferret in their body If it hit you it could kill you Yeah one of the adults I understand, I didn't see it but I was told that one of the adults who did happen to have a gas mask on was hit full-in-the face with one of them and it knocked him off his feet onto the floor It didn't injure him too badly but there's enough force in it to knock him off his feet

1:23:06 Just one little adage to the question about why we didn't come out, and that is for about a week before April 19th anybody that did come out for whatever reason even an official business such as Steve Schneider coming to receive something that the FBI was sending in. We were having these flashbang grenades lobbed at us thrown at us all that week prior to the fire. So you say, why didn't we come out? We never knew what to expect and even after the fire started those of us who were in the chapel I remember somebody running in saying the building's on fire and our immediate reaction was to move away from the front of the building because

1:23:47 You know, we had this feeling it was upstairs and in the front somewhere. We couldn't see it there was no evidence of it at the time but we moved away from that area and went up on a stage that was in the church around behind a petition that had been built across the stage And there was a tank hole on the south side of the building and David Thibodeau and I stood there going what should we do? Should we jump out you know, will they shoot us? I mean we could see tanks. We could see guys outside the tanks with guns trained on us. We could see the sniper nest. We were a little unsure as to what would happen and just within a few seconds it seemed like uh...the smoke came down the outside of the building was sucked into the hole that we were looking out over and just filled the room with smoke

1:24:32 real quick after that. I mean you couldn't see a thing, you could hardly breathe and the next thing all you could feel was this tremendous heat over our heads and it seemed like on both sides almost like you were surrounded just about everybody sense around me seemed to be rolling on the floor and I could hear him screaming. So while I was rolling on the floor and screaming, I was trying to protect my hands from the heat because I didn't have any gloves on. I can see you've seen your skin cast off. Yeah, yeah. I had to spend three weeks in a burn ward in Dallas And just according to some of the videos that I've seen... You know that's just..you were there but it seemed like some these FBI people who were just walking around there

1:25:13 It wasn't like they were trying to rescue anybody. They used the excuse to the media, they told the media early in the day that the reason they changed their plans I know they brought this up in court when we were on trial but they had two tanks loaded with these cylinders of gas and they were both supposed to empty them for two rounds, in other words they'd make a trip empty it all go back reload come back and insert it again off to the boom spray it into the building. And then if we hadn't come out by then they were supposed to go to the ferret rounds but I started with the ferret rounds almost immediately and their excuse was that we were supposed to be firing at the tanks which

1:25:56 you know, I could swear on a stack of Bibles that i heard absolutely no shooting by anybody from within. Although with all the timbers cracking and you know the building being demolished around your ears and noise at the tank motors in the ferret rounds which kind of sound like mortars going off it might have been a bit harder to hear anything You know somebody said well have you been able to here the shots that the FBI was shooting into the building at the back? And I says I couldn't even tell ya could identify them per se, but they show up on film you see. But anyway there's all this noise and so forth it was just tremendous pressure

1:26:40 And when I finally did come out, I thought that was the only one because I hadn't seen anybody leave. How did you get out? You found a little opening somewhere or... I dived toward the hole where I'd last seen the hole. They couldn't see it at the time but I just lunged in that general direction and kind of slithered out over this big heap of sheetrock and tuberfores and stuff that tank had pushed in It wasn't until later, of course I found out that three others had gone out that same hole ahead of me but I hadn't seen them. It was so pitch black in there and I hadn't seen anybody leave. What happened to you when you got out? Well... When I first got out I thought my God! I'm the only one, you know and I looked back over my shoulder and the hole that I'd come out of was just a massive flame and I thought nobody's gonna come outta there now

1:27:31 I thought, I've got to get away from the building. So I staggered away from the building and ran slap bang into this razor wire fence that kind of pulled me up with a jerk and I looked up well i look both ways actually see what should I do now? And I could see some of our guys that are recognized as our guys walking out toward the front gate with their hands up so I figured well I'll just follow them you know and so as I went to follow them One of the FBI agents that was outside of the tank started screaming at me to come over to him. I kept threatening to blow my head off if i made a false move and all this kind of stuff, and uh... I went over there and he's screaming at me where are the kids? Where are the kids? And I said I don't know where they're children, I haven't seen them all day you know so he was kinda mad about that told me to get on up

1:28:17 to the near the front gate area where they were arresting everybody that did come out and everybody that survived I should say. And by the time i got up there, there was four people down on the ground face down handcuffed. I went up there had skin was just rolling off my hands but they went ahead and handcuffed my hands behind my back Shortly after that, they brought Ruth Riddle who jumped out of one of the windows on the second floor. Broken her ankle she had burns on her knees and then they brought her up and put her on the ground beside me in handcuffs to him And they just started screaming at it because I wanted her to tell her tell them that her name She was in such shock and pain that she didn't answer them until One of them just reached down start jerking a hit around by the hair you know got a big handful of hands Just jerking ahead back and forth

1:29:05 I could hear some guy off to the right of me saying, you better not do that. They're taking pictures so he let her go and we spent the next year in jail after three weeks in office. Okay, Clive, we still got an hour or an hour and a half to go here but we've got some things they are telling us we have to do. Quick call! You're on air. Hello? Hello, Lee? Hi. Hi.

1:29:43 Yeah, I'm really touched by what you're saying and I want to say simply that I've seen a similar situation in a community in Oregon where the National Guard was up the road. And um...I'm touched by the tremendous innocence that I recall from our situation and it's just such misrepresentation. And I-I-I just plead with everybody who is watching this however cynical you are Just take a real good look at these people. They're genuine, you know? Look at their faces! Their eyes are telling the truth

1:29:05 I could hear some guy off to the right of me saying, you better not do that. They're taking pictures so he let her go and we spent the next year in jail after three weeks in office. Okay, Clive, we still got an hour or an hour and a half to go here but we've got some things they are telling us we have to do. Quick call! You're on air. Hello? Hello, Lee? Hi. Hi.

1:29:43 Yeah, I'm really touched by what you're saying and I want to say simply that I've seen a similar situation in a community in Oregon where the National Guard was up the road. And um...I'm touched by the tremendous innocence that I recall from our situation and it's just such misrepresentation. And I-I-I just plead with everybody who is watching this however cynical you are Just take a real good look at these people. They're genuine, you know? Look at their faces! Their eyes are telling the truth

1:30:19 And how the hell do we get to the point where we so misunderstand, believe the media and judge without knowing what's really going down. I'm so grateful for both of you coming on this show and I hope people will meditate and reflect on what is going on tonight because we've all got to make some very deep changes in how we're living Alright, thanks for your call caller. Usually you have to go through something before you wake up just how much you have been lied too by the media and government See my opinion is that there should've been a tremendous outrage at what happened in River Ridge Idaho six months Nobody ever heard about it until later ya know So if the American people would've had the moral courage to stand up to 14 year old kid getting shot in the back

1:31:16 then maybe, maybe Waco wouldn't have... Some that were very happy in Waco that it was happening to us. They knew nothing about us but they were in a bar and they were just saying hurray! They were exuberant because of it and you know everybody else this is supposed to be a city of Baptists, Baptist-oriented People who are supposed to know the scriptures, who were supposed to know you don't say I've got Jesus in my heart Well we didn't see it. We didn't see anything that indicated there was a Christian around Nobody stood up in the city. I'm talking about now There are people that came from other places

1:32:10 that were trying to stand up and they're being pushed back. But if there had been enough people there, just like Ruby Ridge it wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have happened. They would've had to let us come out and at least have a trial. At least try to bring the truth to the front. We approached quite a number of different organizations after we got out of jail for instance To see where they're what their attitude was and if they could offer any help never Amnesty International Red Cross Salvation now all these people turned us down basically, and you go this is almost unbelievable the excuses well you had guns and They'd help anybody else whether they had guns or not but for some reason I guess

1:33:03 you know, God allowed it to be so we don't hold it against them. But it just seems strange to me that some of the organizations that are supposed to be dedicated to helping... Human rights and things like this. ...human rights and oppressed and persecuted and tormented never turned their back on us. I think there's just an indication Clive that the whole world is completely controlled by wicked forces or in control of virtually anything of any significance. For real but He wouldn't be surprised. And this particular group also believed that something was going to happen, I mean it seems like they were on the same philosophical belief.

1:33:45 All of the mainstream churches, if they study prophecy and if they study revelations... God we know something's gonna happen. But the world is so worldly and materialistic and caught up in everyday things TV movies, clothes eating this and that They don't study the scriptures! God says my people perish for lack of knowledge We get these people that are really mainstream studying the scriptures They know what's going to happen So these people died a terrible death. They're martyrs, didn't all of Christ's disciples die a terrible death? Their card feathers and their heads were chopped off... Did that make them any less God's people? David and all the kids died a terrible death! And my hope is that the kids didn't suffer too much but they were still doing God's work so I think David was watching what happened

1:34:42 And to know that there are families out there, you know one in a million Shaw has now our feelings of devastation that you have felt. Does it make you want to reach out for them more? Oh yes I wish i could just speak to every one of them and hug them and comp on them but... You know unless you walk in somebody else's shoes and experience a lot of these things you don't realize the depth of hurt and anguish I wondered why. We have our belief in God and all that, but still you wonder why this is happening? Why did it happen? And I know then families are asking the same questions. You know there's a mayor or someone from Canada who went, him and his wife were evidently members and a lot of people are shocked. I was in shock for months after all that happened

1:35:41 What answers could you give the Barney's? Why? If they would say to you, why did this happen how would you comfort them? I wouldn't know how. All i can say is that I understand and... There's so many answers still every day. I mean, I have my faith in God that sustains me and keeps me positive but then there are little times when I humanly speak and say why did it have to happen? Why does this happen again? Hopefully it won't happen again

1:36:21 But I wouldn't be surprised to do it. Is there any message that you have maybe for people that are watching this who have gone through this tragedy or people that you might believe, that might be watching us? That may be a part of some so-called conspiracy as we call it... Any message you'd like to give anybody out there watching? All I can say is people be aware of what's going on, who's running the things. Be aware...get aware get off our butts and be aware of what's going on in the world. Umm..I don't know if there is any way to prevent this kind of stuff but we need to be aware. Umm study the prophecies study the scriptures

1:37:10 Find out what's going on in the world as a whole. The governments and... I don't know, I mean i'm not real smart on all this but I just do know there is something going on that we can't control! It's scary it scares the crap out of me! It's really scary but I am helpless to do anything about it Except that I am aware of what's going on, so...I just have to put it in God's hands and trust Him to take care of everything. If it's in God's hands why isn't it happening? Why now are 28 more people dead?! Well there's people die every day for other reasons look over all over the world Africa and Haiti and all these places-why are people dying!?

1:37:56 This is the devil's world. I mean, you know he's controlling it God's allowing these things to happen but...I mean Things are happening all over the world children starving to death and people dying of diseases and people killing one another And same thing with David David had some guns for his business They were they did not hurt anybody They weren't out there hurting anybody let alone themselves What makes you think, Bonnie that this is a conspiracy? Well you know studying prophecies and books I've read and things that's going on in the world. The New World Order and there are a lot of books out on exactly what happened today There is one called the Committee of 300 everybody ought to read

1:39:00 The world is so worldly and materialistic, and caught up in everyday things. TV movies, clothes eating this and that... They don't study the scriptures. God says my people perish for lack of knowledge to get these people they're really mainstream. The Associated Press story chronicles how outraged these jurors were by the government's own testimony about what happened at Waco to the Branch Davidians. Now understand, this is after the trial is over... ...is the newspaper establishment in this particular story it's the Associated Press who are asking the jurors what did they think? What comments do they have? They were just

1:40:02 fit to be tied, it turns out that those tanks that we watched on the day of the assault, the final assault when there was a big fire and everything. Those tanks that we watched on television were not just poking holes in the wall to insert gas into the structure this is a residence that's occupied by men women and children yet those tanks that we saw According to this trial testimony, the government's testimony those tanks were ordered to penetrate this residence occupied by men women and children. The strategy of the government's strategy as described at the trial by the government itself was to bring this structure down This is a residence occupied by men women and children Our government

1:40:54 that is supposed to be based on the ideals of freedom and liberty, justice for all. Our government instructed its government agents to climb into tanks and roll those tanks right into a structure that's occupied with men, women and children. And as a result some of the children that we were told the government was saving died as the structure came down and crushed skulls they die from blunt force trauma to their skulls It's like this for people who are wondering how come there is a militia movement growing in this country

1:41:38 Well, you know it used to be I'm over 50. I was 52 just had a birthday just here recently and we used to use the phrase up in arms as sort of a metaphor It's kind of a joking metaphor people are up in arms about this or that but when you have a government that Orders its agents to get into tanks and run those tanks through a residence occupied by men women and children And then there are no indictments. There's no indictment of the tank drivers, there is no indictment of the people who ordered the tank drivers... ...there is no indictment of any high officials." At that point, the truce has broken down and the phrase up-in-arms, the people are up-in-arms

1:42:24 is the only thing that's left for them as a reality, instead of it being a metaphor. So yeah you have a growing militia movement because we now have a government that isn't technically violating the Constitution or technically creating injustices We've got a government now that does it in a big way Does it on television Doesn't even get to sweep it under the rug Testifies at trial that what it did was order its agents to get into tanks and run the tanks through a residence occupied by men, women and children. And there are no indictments of any of these people. At the very least they should be indicted for manslaughter if not murdering them

1:43:09 We haven't had that happen, and that's why you have a militia movement that is growing in this country. They see a government... Depending on which aspect of the militia you ask there are going to be different things that bother them and maybe we'll agree with them on this issue or that issue but one point that we can all agree on as you cannot have a goverment that just arbitrarily kills people runs tanks through houses and not even have the agents who drove the tanks be indicted. You cannot have that at that point there is no more choice you have to be up in arms, you have to be ready to deal with that government in the same way it's dealing with their citizens Now I'm not advocating we raise an army and go storm Washington DC

1:44:05 No, this is not a question of going and invading. This is a question of people feeling the need to be ready to protect themselves with deadly force if they have to against the government that has gone outlawed. To the Branch Davidians I would say you've been treated in a way that no human being should be treated let alone let alone people on American soil. This is an outrage, this cannot be allowed to stand I am very pleased that Jeff Davis has been pursuing this issue in public access TV This isn't an issue that's going to be pushed by the establishment media This is Terry Liberty Parker hardcore libertarian in Austin Texas

1:44:56 a branch of the video to join us. Clive, we're honored here to have your mother. Yeah this is Clive Doyle's mother and that know these people we call her Grandma Edna. Grandma Edna do you have any opening statements or comments you'd like to make to the viewers of the program tonight? I'm just hoping that the people of America will wake up to know that they've got a government that's running this country, but it's out to destroy those who don't go along with them. And what happened at Waco is not the last you've seen of it. It's going to continue on until God comes down and finishes the work himself."

1:45:47 So, I want to just ask you all to comment on that. I would agree with everything she said there...that we have there is a government in place now that is out to destroy anybody that's righteous or... Haven't they proved it? Yeah! Well, that's what the Scriptures teach That's right There are powers and they wanna do away with God's people They wanna persecute make war on them And unfortunately the Scripture predicts that they will overcome and kill him for a period of time until the judgment sits and God intervenes. And then when in the end we win, or the righteous people win... He says that the kingdom will be given to the saints In fact I heard you my first introduction to you Edna was on a Day 51 video and you I think you were sitting there with either probably Woody Kendrick or one of these people maybe I've got it confused now but somebody asked somebody one of the Davidians about do you think Jesus is coming soon?

1:46:40 And you said... I was out in front of the courthouse after the trial was over and Clive got out. Somebody was saying, do you think David will come back? Yeah! The sooner the better. Right. I'm still saying that and asking God to please hurry up and send David back and put an end to all this terrible violence and evil ruling this world. Nobody seems inclined to want to stop it but that's a pity of it all. People are just sitting back taking it. Who started the militia in this country? Bill Clinton Because he sits in a position where he brought about a position where people are afraid so they take up arms for self-defense Why shouldn't they who wants somebody bashing in their home and kicking things around? And just stand up to it. No way not at my home anyway, you have any thoughts about this we hear rumors about this new world order that

1:47:37 Sure, if there's a new world order. The devil is going to bring one in which is coming almost into existence now and God has got one which is far better and that's the one I'm waiting for. And I don't want anything to do with Satan or the people who let him use them. I agree. That makes you do a fantastic job Clyde! Therefore seize this opportunity to fulfill the long-held promise of a new world order where brutality will go unrewarded. Just in case you don't remember, let me jog your... In church they call it the Waco compound

1:48:48 Back in April 93. 17, all so helpless and so small died a senseless death of gas and flames How many names can you read? 17 little children make you wonder

1:49:30 17 little chicks How could they deserve to? Maybe we should stop and ask ourselves We become so- 17 little chicks Fine! How did you sleep last night Bill Clinton Tell me, did you feel their teething? Cried out and perished in the

1:50:32 I accept your offer to reason How can you stand for law and order When you won't answer to your crimes? Seventeen of you Also held the sense of small Seventeen blue chins

1:51:12 How many names can you find? We stop and ask ourselves, finding more. I've heard it said the Branch Davidians, they got what they deserved. Yet no one seems to know what laws were brought within the war that they never served

1:52:07 Yesterday I sold my TV set, stopped my subscription tapes. Toby Dee Young was an accomplice to these crimes. 17 little children didn't make you one. The Constitution, America and to the New World Order. We shall we must and we will prevail if were willing to stand up against what's happening God bless the Republic of the United States

1:54:11 Yes, thank you very much folks.