Clive Doyle Fire Survivor Jeff Davis ShowClassic 1995 [e QfEPCHKCc]

00:01 I love Mike Hanson Archives. Hello Austin, Texas we are back and we've got a very interesting show here tonight joining us in the studio i want to welcome a survivor from the Branch Davidian ordeal in Waco Mr Clive Doyle

00:41 Clive as I mentioned to you, this is going to be a touching interview for me because there was a lot of feelings about all that and so essentially folks we are gonna take some calls here in a little bit. I want to just give-I want to make sure that Clive has as much too gets as much opportunity to say whatever he wants to say now where... I just want to mention that you were one of the Branch Davidians, you stayed through the whole 51 days. I was there the whole time and one of only nine survivors Okay And you recently testified before the US House because i sat and watched part of your on C-SPAN so I know that was you which as far as I'm concerned didn't amount to a hill of beans As far as the actual outcome of what? I had a lot of high hopes prior to the hearings but

01:40 I didn't come on until toward the end in the second week. and having seen what was going on prior to my getting there, my hopes were kind of dashed. There's too much politics and a lot of people and material brought out that had nothing to do with the issues which were did the government break the law? Did they perjure themselves or did they make bad decisions things like that this is what they're supposed be looking into and yet they brought in so much stuff it was basically a smoke screen just to cover up the real issues you know right Before we get into the... I want to just, if you could Clive, just basically give a short explanation of some of the Branch Davidian beliefs. How many are there and that kind of thing? Well there's more than one group of Branch Davidians currently Those that studied under David

02:41 basically, we're very Bible-oriented. We spent hours studying the Bible together and we believe in observing the law of God as it's expressed in the Bible when we observed the feast days, dietary laws and so on. We believe that God is going to set up a kingdom in the last days which will be the ultimate evangelistic show you might say that God's going to make an all-out effort to save as many as possible, we believe in this last generation and the kingdom is all through the Bible prophesied that God will set up a kingdom in the Holy Land. So that's part of what we believe and most of the people there didn't actually come and join quote unquote The Branch Davidians as such

03:40 They were simply considered themselves as students of the Bible or students of the seven seals, As was being taught to them at that time by David. But we do believe we're in the end time and The devil is basically pulling a lot of strings amongst the nations and you have a situation, some people call it one world government. We tend to call it Babylon, Babylon the Great there's different terms for it but its basic concept that the devil fighting tooth and nail to get people to join together, and ultimately the results will be that they'll come against God's people. We've seen that we believe in miniature...we went through an experience in miniature of what the whole world can expect to experience you know which the Bible calls tribulation or a time of trouble things like that further down the road but

04:38 Those of us that were studying under David got an experience up close and first hand. Okay, if you would then Clive take us back to maybe a few days prior in the day of the actual... The day that the BATF comes in with the cattle cars and if you could... Leading up to it there was a situation where We thought there was something strange about the house across the road. We definitely had some misgivings about what was happening, we did not know who was over there spying on us but the young men that turned out to be ATF agents watching us for the last two months January and February of 93 weren't very good undercover agents if you

05:36 asked me because so many things they did just gave them away. One of them, Robert Rodriguez had begun coming over and asking David for Bible studies and he had got several Bible studies from David kind of private you know just one-on-one but on the 27th February he had come over spent pretty much the whole day with us That was the day that the Waco Tribune-Herald had printed an article called The Sinful Messiah. A real sleaze type of article, you know giving us a black eye so to speak

06:14 And that came up in the course of some of the day's activities. People were saying, well what do you think about it and that kind of thing? But at the end of the 27th Saturday Robert said he was leaving town but he had asked David if he could come and stay with us for several weeks live with us and continue having these Bible studies more frequently. And David... Let me just mention for viewers who might not know this Robert Rodriguez, he was undercover VAT agent. He was supposed to be an undercover agent. As I said we were suspicious... Who also saw him testify at the hearings? David's attitude

06:55 bring in just now. David's attitude was that regardless of who people were, what they profess to be whether they were government agents whether they were you know even our deadliest enemy so to speak they were souls to be saved and he did everything he could to share with them both our food and lodging and whatever everybody was given it an opportunity and so just because we were suspicious that Robert and his friends over the road were acting strange doing things that gave us concern, David welcomed them any time they came over and made every effort to encourage them to come. So Robert told us at the end of the 27th that he was having to go out of town and wouldn't be back till Monday or Tuesday but at that time he was going to move in with us. Unbeknownst to me on 28th I didn't know that even came over until after all this happened

07:50 He showed up on the 28th, which was not what he said he was going to do. And in the course of giving him a Bible study some of the people from Mount Carmel had gone out... ...to get the second edition of this series that The Waco Tribune was running One of those people was David Jones which was a brother-in-law to David Koresh. He had gone down the road and apparently run into some media people who seemed to be lost David Jones was the mailman that people hear about, and he was driving his mail car. So when he stopped and asked them what their problem was they said they were looking for Mount Carmel. And so he casually asked them why they wanted to go out to Mount Carmel or why they wanted to find the place. They indicated that something big was going to happen. The police or something would be going out there and they wanted to be there

08:48 So of course he headed back and went into our place. And of course David was busy giving Robert Rodriguez a Bible study, so David went and told his father which was David Koresh's father-in-law. Perry Jones eventually got the word to David Now, a lot of people say that we had a 45-minute tip off. That they were coming and we all armed ourselves and basically set up an ambush and gunned them down as they drove in. That was not true. I'd say only a few people knew anything was happening to begin with. From my own personal experience...I was in my room at the northern end which would be way up on the left hand side of the building if you're looking at the front

09:36 I heard several people in the cafeteria which was on the back side of the building. And, I wondered what was going on so I went out there and there were some agitation. You know something's happening we just got word that somebody is coming or something to that effect. About the time I walked in David Koresh came from the other room from the other doorway and confirmed the fact that they heard somebody was coming. He says, I want everybody to stay cool. He said just be calm and go back to your rooms. He said, I'm going to go down to the door and talk to them. And so I went back to my room he headed in direction into the hall and down towards the front door within just a few

10:21 seconds it seemed like of me getting back into my room, I heard David's voice at the front door saying hey wait a minute there are women and children here. Let us talk about this and then all hell broke loose. I mean just shots from outside. Let me ask you a question what exactly were you doing then when so you did not even know that when the car when they when ATF had brought all their equipment now that is where you did you have any perception of any of this? You mean when they moved into the house? Right, right. When they first made their initial move towards... You're talking about on the day of the raid? I didn't even know they'd driven in. I didn't see them coming in you know as I said we only had a

11:04 I'd say a couple of minutes at the most, warning. David coming and saying yes we are expecting somebody to come and he said he was going to go talk to them so i just went back to my room and figured he'd handle it you know? I didn't know what the situation was gonna turn out to be when I heard the shots that just horrified me I thought man this must be a massacre whoever would be in down near the door must... So I went running down the hall to see if anybody was hurt or killed or whatever. And the first person I came across was David Koresh's father-in-law, Perry Jones in the hall screaming that he'd been shot at the front door. I was also told David had been shot so...I went down there to check it out and found there was no one else down near the door. I heard later David had been wounded but managed to run up – he'd only been wounded in the wrist and he managed to run upstairs where he was later shot again

12:00 But, so I came back and helped Perry pick him up and assisted him back to a bedroom up in the men's area. The Men's Dormitory And about the time I was putting Perry onto a bed trying to take care of him someone came and told me that Winston Blake was dead. And I says are you sure? They said oh yes he has been shot in the head So I made my way up to his room and as I got to the door, I could hear all this water running. And I thought what's that? As a round of the corner Winston Blake's room which was the last room on the inside of the hallway at the north end

12:41 I could see all this water pouring through all these bullet holes that were coming down on an angle throughout. We had these huge big plastic water tanks set outside the window and they were just riddled with bullets coming down into the room from above, you know? And there was no buildings out there higher than at the back that could have shot in It had to come from a plane or helicopter. Because later on I found quite a number of people that said they saw either the helicopters firing, saw the bullets coming through the roofs and so on. To this day, the ATF swear up and down they never fired at all but... So you're saying that there was helicopter fire from the tower? There were three helicopters that came out that day now whether I wouldn't say that the helicopters, you know, the planes were firing but somebody on them is definitely firing because the place was full of holes

13:34 Children that have survived can testify to that. The lawyers that came in, David gave them a walking tour through the place and they saw the evidence Jack Zimmerman one of the two lawyers who came in during the siege has testified over and over his military training he's had a lot of military experience He said those were incoming bullets They were not somebody shooting up through the roof you know And there are few survivors who can testify including some of the children that came out during the siege. So we definitely believed they were shooting. Let me ask you, if you've seen the NBC movie on this supposedly there was 80 armed men standing there with rifles at their waist... That is not true. Most people didn't know what was going on. I think it's ridiculous! The first time that I ran upstairs

14:29 After I put Perry down and checked on Winston, I made my way back to Wayne Martin's office which was at the other end of the hall down on the south end just round the right from the front door. Wayne was in the process of calling 911 trying to get you know local police department or the sheriff's department come out and help us sort it call it off contact whoever was doing we still didn't know who they were So we were running back and forth between him and David with messages that the Sheriff's Department wanted to answer, trying to get some decisions. When I got upstairs that first day... The whole hall was just full of women laying on top of the kids trying to protect them from bullets. The bullets were coming up at angles through the floor

15:18 Beside the fact that of what actually took place, you know Making me upset is the fact that they have continued They being the ATF and later on the FBI Continued to lie about their participation in what they did I mean they try to make themselves so lily-white by saying well You know They didn't panic. They acted professional they didn't fire at any other than threatening targets and yet The evidence was that the building was riddled and all the windows you see on the second floor in front had women and children in them that day. I'm not saying some of the Branch Davidians didn't retaliate as a result of seeing David gunned down, Perry gunned down or hearing about others being killed

16:03 I don't blame them for trying to protect the women and children, but there was no 40-50 people just waiting in an ambush. If that was the case then they probably would never have gone off... The firepower that was out there was overwhelming. A bunch of women and kids. But anyway let me just first make it clear that there was a wide, some people have said this is like a white man's thing. But the fact is there were all different types of races and people in there, nationalities...

16:42 black people from America, we had black people from England which basically their roots was Nigeria and Jamaica and places like that. We had Filipinos, we had Chinese Japanese there were Australians and Canadians and people from all over And one of the things that has always stuck in my mind is just how well all these people got along as a result of learning what they did from David. As a result of his teaching, they all had greater interest in the Bible than in problems or... There was no fighting amongst people My two roommates were both black About almost one third of all the people that died were black There was no racism Let me just touch upon

17:30 David Kresnow, you obviously knew him for a long time. I was one of his first people to join him when he first started teaching in 1983 What's your... What's your impression of him? I mean, we've seen what the media and others have done. As a person he was... Yeah as a person He was very talented person in as much as anything that he put his hand to. I mean he was a carpenter, he is musician, he is mechanic and any other thing that he took you know interest in he became good at it. He made effort to become good at it. He was not a good student when he first started talking

18:13 good an orator or anything. It wasn't his charisma, it wasn't his music...it wasn't anything about him that attracted us other than what he said which we compared with the scriptures and with what we already believed We chose to believe. We were convinced that this was of God The more I saw him working with all kinds of people from the streets of LA all the way up to millionaires I believed that He had a gift of God That the Spirit worked through Him hundreds and hundreds of people who had their minds opened up to the scriptures, and basically admitted that this was God even though they never perhaps joined us. Let's continue on now so what about the allegations of course? Do you have any theories on what happened

19:09 I have mine. What happened? Was there four killed today at the raid or...? I've never seen it proven as to who killed, but...I mean, I feel real bad about the four agents that died. They've got families and loved ones left behind that are grieving just like we are for our dead. And I may even say these guys were doing their job In the Nuremberg trials, that didn't wash. There was a lot of Germans during the Nuremberg trial said we were just doing what we're told. There should be a certain moral guideline when an officer is told to do something that he knows is immoral or maybe not even politically correct, let's say. When you are asked to go on a raid, when your code book... When your training has been

20:05 countermanded by some officer telling you to do something that you were taught not to do when you were training to be a police officer. Such as, if the element of surprise is lost, you're to call off the raid If there's innocent people there like women and children especially You'd have called off the raid even if there isn't a crime going on or potential suspect that you want arrest you call it off until there's more convenient time to carry it out because of the jeopardy of hurting somebody that's innocent. Now these guys knew there were women and children in there, they come in like gangbusters and just shoot the place up They're not knowing where those bullets are going even if their firing at somebody shooting back at them you know Where is a bullet going after it goes through the window or through the wall? There's a certain buddy system amongst police officers

21:02 If an officer is threatened or if an officer is gunned down, that's almost a free-for-all. That's what I think they did out there. Let me ask you a tough question, Clive. You lost your 18 year old daughter in there right? That's correct Was this at the day of the fire? She died in the fire Let's go back just a little bit now. During the actual 51 days that you were in there, there have been rumors floating around and I guess you can verify one way or another from your perspective that there was actually loud music being played

21:58 lights being shined into the Mount Carmel facility. All the different, what I would call metal... Electricity was shut off? Could you elaborate on what that was like for those 51 days? Well, it's kind of ironical that... I know these are tough questions. It's kind of ironical that the people giving the morning briefings to the press each day are saying their interest was in protecting the children or saving the children but all they did was not only affecting us but was affecting them. The music, scare tactics, the tanks

22:35 you know, the cutting off of the electricity to where whatever frozen food or fresh food we had spoiled. These were all privations that they were putting the children through just as much as these adults that they were supposed to be working on and they were scared and they were prevented from sleeping I probably averaged, I doubt if I got two hours a day as the result of the noise and lights and all the activity that was going on. And as 51 days went on they kept increasing pressure. I would ask just what was their object in doing that?

23:15 David was as crazy or whatever they thought, or what they were trying to present him as. And we were all the adults with radical or whatever What did they hope to accomplish by increasing pressure? Did they want us to react violently? Did they want us to come out shooting or what? What were they trying to push us into you don't push somebody that's The way they're considering We were Into a corner doesn't make sense especially as I said with children in there How is it affecting them There were children that came out basically against their will. Some of them left their parents, too. One of the main arguments is why didn't you all just come out? To me that's not an argument because I don't trust if a group of thugs comes into your property and starts shooting and gunning

24:09 I mean, obviously I'm not going to trust them to come out. But the underlying... one of the major arguments by what I'd call the brain dead is why didn't you all just come out? There's a two-fold answer to that. One is lack of trust in the government that they would keep their word which is what we saw as the people who were coming out on a day-to-day basis for the first week or 2 Instead of being allowed to... I was told if I came out, I could go live with my daughter in California. Everybody that saw it coming out were being arrested and put on the ground handcuffed and carted off. The next thing they're in jail! But that wasn't a major issue. You've got to remember you have a group of people who believe in the Bible

25:01 So much that they believed that God of the Old Testament, who could do miracles and defeat armies and do all these kind of miraculous things could also deliver them. We believed that David Koresh was in contact with God and God was working through him You've got to understand the religious angle as well as the political or literal angle, physical angle on daily basis We were told God said to wait. We were all planning to come out, we had our bags packed I even packed a lunch one day when we thought we're all going to come out But...we were told that God said to wait and put our trust in God more than men You know? Especially the government because they weren't not trustworthy So we were waiting for God to indicate what we should do That was part of it. Let me interject something here. I don't know if this is true or not but on some of these videos that are flying around

25:57 It was also mentioned that property was going to be paid off. I don't know if you can comment on this, but that property it was like if it had been on a fifth year of five-year note or something like this and I can... I've heard the stories that if we'd have been there just a little longer then we would have got a clear title for something We weren't buying, we were in the process of buying as far as making payments. Okay, so the days drag on and this has got to be... What's the sentiment of the children and women that were in there?

26:40 You all had plenty to eat, you had food and stuff. We had food and as I said when the electricity was cut off then most of the fresh stuff milk for the babies frozen food anything like that deteriorated so towards the end it got pretty scary and pretty much of a probation. We were collecting rainwater to drink, it was being rationed about the only food that we had that was surviving without electricity was the canned food or the MRE's which David had bought most of which to sell at gun shows as a money-making proposition so we were eating them and as I say waiting for God and waiting for things

27:26 orchestrated. See that's another thing We were told out of one side of their mouth, we were told that they wanted us all to come out. But we are also told those of us on the inside that they didn't want us all just coming out all over the place They wanted it had to be orchestrated over the negotiating phone lines which they'd set up because they had snipers and stuff surrounding us and they didn't want anybody accidentally getting shot so they said if we came out without setting it up And so we were just kind of waiting at him. Personally, I figured well the women and children will go first and the elderly and since I was occupied in taking care of some of their... The janitorial type things that needed to be taken care under that sort of situation. I figured I'd probably be one of the last ones not because I wanted to be you know stubborn or not because I want to be a hero or any this kind of stuff just simply that I figured my services were needed

28:25 and that eventually we'd all come out. That's what we were working out with the lawyers, David finally told the lawyers that God had spoken to him and he was going to write out his memoirs... not his memoirs but you know his interpretation of The Seven Seals of Revelation And it was indicated to him that he could have all time in life I mean go ahead do it when you get through then will all come out this kind of thing He knows when to get started on it, and you're on the 19th of April. And the tanks are coming in, you know? Okay let's go then to day 51. This is the 19th of April 1993. Of course as you mentioned

29:12 You had, you lost your daughter. You brought some of your other Branch Davidian survivors here? There's a lady here by the name of Ophelia Santoya who lost her daughter and five grandchildren there is another lady that is not here tonight in the studio she lives in Waco She lost her husband three children six grandchildren and son-in-law ten members of their family That's a big chunk of people. Yeah, let me add now what exactly were you dealing in with them? Had they driven any tanks into the building before the final day? Not into the building... If they saw you looking out of a window They would turn the gun turret on the tank towards you In threatening manner like back off or we'll shoot

30:07 If you didn't back off, if you kind of just stood there and looked at them. You know we were peaceful no guns showing or anything We weren't threatening them. We were just watching what they were doing. If he stood there and didn't back off They would kinda back the tank up and then charge the building and stop just short of hitting it that was prior For about a week or maybe two weeks before the last day, if anybody came out for just about any reason including Steve Schneider who was coming and going picking up things from you know that they would bring in for us. They were lobbing these flash bang grenades at any individual that came out

30:46 came out a door or out of window or whatever for whatever reason. They would lock, and of course the people would go rushing back in it scared the daylights out of Steve because they threw two at him right after he'd gone to pick up something that was being sent in by FBI themselves you know? And so thats another thing kind of made people leery well just what will they do if we come out will let you know and that was a concern of mine after the fire started There's been some controversy as to whether the tanks set fire or not. As far as I'm concerned, that is not the issue. The issue is what are these government and public servants doing climbing into tanks

31:37 driving them into walls and the structures in the buildings with men, women and children on the other side. That's the only issue everything else is a... And lying the whole time while they're doing it They was over-they had loudspeaker system set up to where they could broadcast messages at us and loud noises music and stuff to keep us awake They would use that to inform us different times of what they wanted to say. And so on the day when the tanks did start to penetrate the walls and put the gas in. They were saying, do not fire this is not an assault we are not entering the building over and over again they kept saying it that's a downright lie this tank that I just last saw is halfway into building I mean last time the tank came through to front door you could see the boom sticking out of the front actually in the chapel and you had go all way through the foyer down a little hallway to get to the chapel You know its set back into the building

32:37 five feet or so. And the tanks right there, spraying gas point blank at whoever's standing in the room and they're saying we are not entering the building They said we are not firing but they ended up firing something like 300 ferret rounds which is like having mortars shot out you and they come through to windows in the walls like rockets so fast that you couldn't see them until they hit something and start hissing, you know. And you go what do they mean? They're not firing! What do they mean they're not entering the building?! I mean who do you trust? You know that they're lying to the media and they're lying to the public constantly throughout these 51 days Let me ask a question... What's your perception of the media in all this? I think that to some degree they were lazy

33:30 In order to get a convenient story for their daily paper or whatever they were, you know the TV. I think that they just took whatever was dished out to them there were a few perhaps that asked awkward questions but they tended to be kicked out of the briefing room, you know and not allowed back in their credentials were pulled or they weren't allowed to get anywhere close to where they could so they took the easy way out and took what they were fed any little tidbits including downright manufactured stories and built them into a daily report I think they could have done a better job. They should have demanded better jobs if they wanted truth

34:11 You hear so many people say they want to get to the truth and it never happens, including in Congress and Senate. Let's get back to the final day now...the day when fires erupt Where were you at? What was your reaction, obviously trying to get out of the building because you got burned. Is that correct? Well by the time the fire started... Throughout that morning I had been in the chapel most times. I'd been sick all day before bedridden and I've been in bed all day on a Sunday Because of being in bed, I guess I just didn't feel like laying there too much longer. So I got up about four o'clock that morning and was in the chapel when they began to penetrate with the booms and spray the gaps They just made little holes

35:03 Those that got the gas on them were screaming because of this. It just felt like acid, you know? Burning your skin and... What was it? Do you have a... do you know what it was? Well they claim it was CS gas we've been told that it, you know It's banned by the Geneva Convention for one thing. So with CS gas they were pumping it in? That's what they claim I've learned since you know that CS gas breaks down into carbon monoxide, hydrogen chloride and cyanide under certain heating conditions which all three of them will do bodily harm if not kill you so to put that in where there is children knowing that they probably didn't have gas masses

35:46 you know, almost unforgivable. You might say although I just say God forgive them because they don't know what they're doing and you know they're out of control They are under a power that they know not rules them But anyway that increased over the course of the morning They weren't content to just fire the ferret rounds or inject the gas through the booms. As I said, they began actually pushing on the building and destroying whole sections of the building. They took out a room out of the first floor so that the second floor was kind of overhanging down in the southwest corner. They took out the northwest corner

36:27 The driver of the CV was asked during our trial, you know why did you demolish that end of the building at the North End? He says well we heard there was a trap door into an underground tunnel or into a bus. And they said well what about it he said well we wanted to cover over so nobody could escape and that kind of sounds ominous They went through the middle all the way into the kitchen area. They testified during our trial that this one driver said, well he went into the kitchen area and said he'd never seen so many cans of beans and tuna and stuff in his life lined up on the walls. And he's injecting gas at point blank range into that concrete structure at the foot of the central tower where it turned out later all the women and children were found. So you know these people didn't have gas masks

37:16 And they're firing this in a point-blank range. There's no windows or doors to where there is cross breeze to blow it away, or anything But anyway. Well, let me ask you that so what was your attacks are coming through the structure through the building they demolished the back and shooting into CS gas now we'll just forget who it doesn't really matter how to fire started as far as I'm concerned maybe Okay, so we don't really okay all I wonder what did you do all I remember was around somewhere in the area of noon, somebody come running into the chapel saying the building was on fire. I don't even recall them saying where or what location but they must have indicated something because all of us that were in the chapel began to move away from the front. In my mind I vaguely remembered

38:06 or thinking that it was upstairs in the front area somewhere. So we moved toward the back of the chapel, got up on the stage and went around behind a partition that David had built to hold a big screen TV and everything It was like a little narrow hallway behind there because it was only half of the area of this stage We went in there and were standing in front of a hole that a tank made I can remember David Thibodeau standing next to me What do we do? Do we jump out of the hole or what, will they gun us down if we do that. I mean there was a tank right out from us There's a guy standing beside the tree with guns on him and sniper nest little further up toward the gate. There were tanks all around the building

38:51 four or five Bradleys, there was two CEVs. And they had demolished in the course of them penetrating the building they tore down just about all of the gymnasium at the back and lumber on the roof coming down it blocked the back stairs The front hallway that ran the length of the building was all blocked from them pushing on the front and here we are clustered in this little narrow area thinking well what will I do if we jump out? Then next thing I saw this smoke coming along the outside wall, you know and it came in the hole where we were. The little section we're in just turned pitch black couldn't see a thing could hardly breathe and all of a sudden he could just feel heat all around like I was over-the-top here on the right and on the left like you were surrounded And I can remember ending up on the floor rolling on the floor trying to protect my hands because they didn't have any gloves

39:49 The rest of my body was pretty well protected because I put a lot of clothes on as a result of the gas irritating the skin. I said, you know put some insulation sort of thing on but my hands weren't covered so i'm rolling around in the pitch black can't see anything can hardly breathe and feeling this terrible heat beginning to see every now and again if the smoke would clear a little bit you'd see that flames licking through the walls and so on And I guess it was the hearing people behind me screaming. I guess there was more fire around them than where i was, it was hotter and they were already burning because they were screaming and some of the voices I recognized very distinctively, I know who they are

40:37 And to hear their voices screaming just kind of, I guess galvanized me into jumping up from being laying on the floor. I just jumped up and lurched in the general direction where I figured the hole was you couldn't see anything but I did a head first dive The tank that had made the hole had just pushed everything in, so there's a big heap of tuberfores and sheetrock and stuff piled up inside on the inside of the hole. So I kind of just landed on that and slithered out onto the ground outside I can remember my jacket was just all smoking and... And, uh, I looked back over my shoulder and the hole that I'd just came out of was a mess of flames. And I thought to myself, My God! I'm the only one that's got out of there Nobody is going get out of there now because as they say Uh..I didn't realize at the time I hadn't seen anything It was so pitch black in there you couldn't see anything I found out later That three others had gone out the hole ahead of me When I got out

41:38 What did you do when you got out? When I got out, the skin was just rolling off my hands. It wasn't blistering it was just rolling of in sheets and I thought man...I'm looking around thinking I've gotta get away from the building if i stand right here I'll burn anyone. I can see the scar of permanent But go ahead. So I figured, I've got to get away from the building and I staggered away toward south directly out from the building and ran into the razor wire fence that they'd surrounded us with And I had forgotten about seeing them put that up in the heat and all of turmoil and everything what was going on...I had forgotten that so I ran into the fence and it pulled me up with a jerk

42:26 And I thought, boy where do i go? That's when I looked to my left and looked to my right. I could see these other guys walking up toward the gate with their hands in the air you know and so I chose to follow them rounding the curve of the driveway, a guy that was over on the south side standing outside the tank with the gun on me called me over. He didn't call them over he called me and he's screaming at me telling me if I make a false move you're going to blow my so-and-so head off and all this kind of stuff. And he's screaming where are the kids? Where are the kids? I said look i haven't seen the kids all day! I don't know where they are. They're normally upstairs but...you know..I didn't know

43:09 he's screaming obscenities and everything, and tells me to get on up the gate. So I went up there... There was four of our guys laying down face-down on the ground with handcuffs in their hands behind their back so they told me to lay on the ground behind them They immediately handcuffed me And I can remember looking at the burning building while i'm laying there That's when you see a big fireball go off I just thought to myself, boy no one else is going to get out. We're the only ones and uh...I wasn't aware of anybody else making it until a little while later they brought Ruth Riddle up Let me ask you this quick question on that line there's some rumors floating around that there was actually sniper fire being taken at the people as you all were coming out here did you see any evidence of that? No Uh..I couldn't swear to it or had no knowledge

44:09 as far as my own personal experience. I've heard the rumors, I've even heard stories of people that have testified to seeing them coming out and I've seen some footage actually video footage where tanks are pushing stuff back into the building while it's still burning you know they say well everybody had an opportunity to get out. They'd made holes for them, it wasn't that way at all there was stairwells and hallways blocking their exit There's probably a lot of people would have come out or could have come out if they just left the building alone but

44:48 They pretty well blocked off everything. As I said, I've seen this footage where they're pushing stuff back in there whether there was bodies in that rubble or whether they'd been gunned down...I don't know. I've heard the rumors but can't... What was a total number then of Davidians that were killed? About 85-86? There were 76 on 19th. It's 82 altogether and that includes Two of the women that were pregnant, one was full term. She was expecting a baby just any time There's another one that had a month or so to go Both of them aborted during the fire and of course the babies were burned and killed But we count them in that total Well now... So you get out there You said you spent three weeks in hospital for your birth They took me up to Dallas to the burn ward I spent three weeks there

45:42 And then I was told that I was being transferred. And I thought, I said where am I going? And they grudgingly said Waco and I figured well I'd be down at the hospital in Waco. They were just transferring me. What it turned out is they took me straight to jail and put me basically into solitary confinement in what they call a medical cell which doesn't have any windows or doors you're just by yourself. And I spent the rest of May June and part of July in there, basically in solitary. And then I was sent upstairs where the other guys were being held on the fifth floor. All-in all, I spent about 10 months in jail up until we had our trial in San Antonio. Now I was only one of three that was acquitted... How many actually went to the trial? There were 12 originally charged. You were charged with what?

46:43 Well, only 11 went to trial because one of them chose to testify for the government. I was charged with the first three counts. The first count was conspiracy to murder federal agents. Second count was aiding and abetting the murder of federal agents. And third count was having a weapon during the commission of a violent crime. I was found not guilty on all that. All eleven defendants were found not guilty on the first two counts but the jury put some of the gun charges on different individuals. And as a result, instead of... As we were going up to trial, we were told that first count had a 20-year sentence second count had a 20 year sentence and the gun charge had 5 to 10. But when those who found guilty eventually went to sentencing they

47:36 The judge ended up just making a flat statement, I believe they're all guilty of conspiracy and murder and so on. And the only reason there's only eight being sentenced today he said is because the others had better lawyers Well i don't believe that particularly but... I'm out A couple other guys are out but the rest of them He threw the book at him! He gave five of them 40 year sentences For what? You also mentioned that Paul Fowler... Paul Fowler got 15 years and he wasn't even there. Right And as I said, they were all found not guilty of conspiracy to murder or aiding and abetting murder and yet they wangled it to where they got the same sentences if they were found guilty you know, the judge basically just ignored the jury's verdict How many people are actually in prison right now

48:29 Right now there are nine. Even the one that testified for them still got three years The other girl got five years, Paul got 15 Graham Craddock got 20 and all the others got 40 each There's nine altogether Now obviously Clive this is a... You've been through all this before but it has to be tough thing to talk about all of these Before we end I'm going take quick break here in a minute Do you have anything that would like to say through all these events? Would you have any hopes that anything would come out of all this? Well, sure you'd have hopes. I had high hopes prior to going to Washington for the hearings that something would come out justice would be done those responsible for some of these atrocities would be dealt with or whatever it would take to get fixing him and make it right

49:25 and to get to the bottom of everything so the American people would know the truth. But as I saw the hearings go on, as I went through the trial and saw what a farce that was how one-sided it was we weren't allowed to have any... you know We hardly had any witnesses there's hardly any defense put on for our people at all And the prosecution had all the money in the world to spend on six weeks all these experts coming and testifying, and all these ATF agents and FBI agents getting up basically perjuring themselves. And you see nothing done about it? You see the same thing in the hearings... house hearings in Washington Now the Senate are going to have them It's hard to keep your hopes that something good is going to come out of this. And you said you're not gonna be at that one Well I would've if they'd requested me If they wanted me to come up there

50:18 But I saw you on the C-SPAN with the House, but the fact is there's still no indictments. There's still nothing done. A lot of politicking. You wonder whether it was just done to keep the American people pacified or not? Yeah, I think so. We're going to go ahead and put up the number now... Now, you stated before this show that this is the only, because you're obviously... Well when I got out of jail. I'd been in jail as a say for almost a year When i got out of it I was hearing all these stories about people making donations and trying to help the survivors And so I began asking this advice is well You know have you received any of this? And everyone wasn't saying

51:03 We haven't heard anything about this donation or that donation, or this group that's supposed to be collecting on our behalf. Well there was a man in Waco who started a fund he wasn't a branch division, he wasn't a survivor He was just sympathetic and he was a doctor that was operating in Waco And he started up the fund called the Malcomel Survivors Fund After about six months basically handed it over to us and says, here you run it that way you will be in control of whatever money people send and then you can distribute it to those that need it. You know the widows the orphans guys in jail or whatever prison I should say

51:41 And so we've tried to do that. All these other people that I know of, that are collecting money... We don't see any of it basically. This is the only one with the Mount Carmel Survival Memorial Fund That's the correct address. 120 Axtell Texas 76624 and that's the only legitimate address Well its' the only one where we can really say what's sent in and use it for the people that it is for. The rest of the money, you know... There seems to be a lot of people making money off this. Right there might even be some scams. Could be! In fact we were asked awhile back by the local sheriff department about certain situations they were hearing about

52:28 It sounded like they were interested in whether it was a scam or not, you know. We weren't able to tell them the whole lot because we didn't know... Let's put it up one more time and then we're going to take about three minute break and then come back. Do you want try to take some calls Clive? That's fine with me. Okay, well be back in about five minutes folks. Go ahead and kill that. Okay, uh, Clive before I just wanna play a little, about three of four segment of some footage of some other things

53:11 that you might not have actually seen while you were in there, right? Because this was going on... Possibly. Beyond the... let me just ask you this would you say that the nine people who are still in prison they basically in your belief are they political prisoners? Sure I believe their political prisoners and they're being treated in my opinion, differently than other people. They're being harassed and privileges are taken away. It seems like the wardens of the various jails are all in cahoots together so to speak stopping them from having visitors Livingston Fagan is just

53:58 recently being sent up to Wisconsin because he was in El Reno until the bombing and moved him up to Wisconsin. On the way they stopped in Terre Haute for several nights and the guards beat him up twice You mean, the inmates? No, the guards The guards! Then when they got to Wisconsin He just let us know by letter just the other day that They've taken away all his privileges no visitors, no commissary, no phone calls you know It seems kind of unjust in my opinion. Seems like this attitude that they had during the raid continues on and making it difficult for our people to get some fair treatment Are we ready with the footage? We're pretty close to ready with the footage here I just want to play just a little bit of this since

54:57 I'm sure you've seen this hundreds, many times. But since you're here and since you were actually involved when this was going on outside around you... Here's the footage now of some things that Mr Doyle saw as an insider inside Mount Carmel Seems so well it doesn't show How can I contain this anguish and this pain Knowing that your eyes are blinded by the lies Have your eyes been blinded by the lies? Have your eyes been blinded by the lies? Yes, you're right We're blinded by the... Yes, your eyes are blinded by the lies

56:03 Every time I think about the damage that's been done The anger wells inside me till I'm almost overcome. I want to tear the moon out of the sky and drop the sun Why do I feel so all alone like I'm the only one? Even though your eyes are open they may never ever see Your mind may never comprehend this sinful subtlety. Your heart may never hunger for the truth that sets you free. Your soul may know the darkness of divine eternity, like many beings who claim to be.

56:41 The shadows of the night, they break inside and enter through the windows of your mind. How can I control this poisoning of the soul? These lies that blind your eyes! Blinded by the lies have your eyes been blinded by the lies? Have your eyes been blinded by the lies? Yes, your eyes are blinded I'm surprised, it's a surprise, on my mind and by the lies.

57:33 Your mind has been made up to you by people you don't know Whose thought machine controls the scene so well it doesn't show How can I contain this anguish and this pain Knowing that your eyes are blinded by the lies Have your eyes been blinded by the lies? Have your eyes been blinded by the lies Alright folks, we're back visiting with Mr. Clive Doyle He's one of you were one of what 11 of the surviving branch dividends that actually were there in the whole 51 days Is that correct? No, there was only

58:38 There was only nine that came out of the fire. I'm one of the nine, there were others that came out prior to the fire during a raid and part of the siege but didn't go through the fire. Before we try a call Clive let me ask you what has all this done for you? You've lost your daughter, your friends have lost family members Will you ever be the same after all this? Well, my mother says I'm different and I probably am in a lot of ways. Certainly not able to work the kind of jobs that I was used too because of my hands Mentally, I'm probably different. I try to maintain a decent attitude and love all mankind That was what David would want He stressed that over and over again

59:33 individuals, no matter what they are souls to be saved and so I try to be very you know peace-loving but there are things that bother me the way my friends that have survived are treated. You know it's ongoing government law enforcement officers or wardens of the various prisons they make it difficult for them to get visitors some of them might have their privileges taken away can't get phone calls or make phone calls, they can't have commissary, you know what other inmates get automatically that are being denied. These images of what happened through all this

1:00:18 They won't leave you, right? Oh no. That's one thing... When I first came out of the fire and the guy called me over to the tree one of his statements that he made in amongst all the obscenities was You're going to live with this for the rest of your life That once sense was the truth It'll never leave, I'l always remember it I may not remember all the details but the hurt is there and enough of the memories are there to haunt you and you feel guilt trips that you go through from time to time. How come your out, the others didn't make it? And how come your out of jail and the others are still in? How come you didn't save your daughter? All this kind of stuff you know you go through a lot It's difficult Well, why don't us try a call here Now I hope we do not have any technical problems Sometimes we do so if we do

1:01:16 You're on air. Hello, Jeff? Pardon me? Yes sir! It's an honor to be talking with Clive Doyle are you the only free Davidian? No, from those that went through the trial only three were released. Out of 11... I should say out of 12 only 3 were released 9 are still in prison There were other survivors that came out and were not indicted was sent to halfway houses or kept in jail for a period time and later on released So there are quite a number of survivors in that sense

1:01:54 I'm sorry for your loss. I had a couple of questions, Jeff did a good job he asked most of the tough questions tonight. It's a tough interview Yeah but i think this is among your best shows you have the best guests certainly that I've ever seen you have and my heart goes out to you for all your losses not just your daughter but how long were you at Davidian there at The Compound? I'm originally from Australia and I moved from Australia to Texas and to Mount Carmel back in 1966. I'd lived there almost 30 years prior to this, I had left at times to work in California and other places but that was basically my home Well who owned the property? Was it David's family's property or was it... No It belongs to the church Okay So finances weren't really a problem there

1:02:49 Well, I don't know does it still belong technically it does the trouble is there's those who are claiming The right to be out there on the grounds that their church members even though they never belong to David's group There's all kinds of people squatting out there right now. You know and We would have to go to court to prove our clear title in order to have them removed so we haven't pushed that at this point. Well, David released a tape I think the second or third day of the siege where he tries to get across to the public what his message was all about. David believed that God was using him to reveal The Seven Seals which technically the way we believe it is the book in the hand of the one on the throne as the Bible and the same spirit

1:04:04 cause the prophets to write needs to open the book up for us to understand it and David believed God was using him for that purpose. And so his message covered the whole Bible, had to do with the end time and showing that the whole Bible dealt with the end time was really not written For those you know it for whatever era that the writers were writing in and had applications made but it was technically all sealed up till the time of the end and so Did he believe the end was near? The end was we believe. We're in the time of the end now Okay, so our within our lifetime certainly right okay my final question for y'all let somebody else call We've heard rumors that David believed He was Jesus

1:04:52 David never taught that he was Jesus. He never thought we didn't believe that he was a son of God, a Messiah figure That was predicted to come in the last days Yes, he thought he was a prophet but he never said he was Jesus and never taught that he was Jesus Okay, well amen brother and I'm sorry for your losses. I'm gonna get off and let the next caller Thank you. Thanks for going You're on air Hey Jeff how are ya doing? Good you good Mr Doyle Do you agree that they could have picked up David Koresh off the compound at any time to avoid all this? That's correct. He went to town, he went shopping, he went jogging off the property, he rode go-karts off of the property...

1:05:35 They could have picked him up at any time. In fact, he invited them out the year before to come inspect all his weapons if they wanted to and they chose not too. Well that's quite obvious then that I'm right again like always. They didn't want to do it that way. Yeah see? They didn't want to do it. They would rather done what they did And they'd do it again if they had the chance, they would do that same damn thing again. During our trial, the leader of the group that smashes his way into the window goes up to ladder on the right and they smash their way into the window he was asked what would have happened if David had just come into the door an invited the guys who were coming to the front door, invited them in peaceably

1:06:15 And he said he would have gone ahead and did what he did because that was what they trained to do, that was the plan. He had no radio contact with the people at the front door so they would've still smashed the window thrown the grenades in and gone in shooting basically regardless of whether he had peacefully let them in at the front door. That's ridiculous! Organizations like that... That's where our tax dollars go To cause this kind of havoc for no reason uh... these are the end times there's no doubt about it that's what we believe. No doubt about it I'm always right and this is pretty sick well thanks for your call brother you're on the air hi Jeff, Clive Lee and Jeff have been talking about this issue for well for a long time now and I wish I could say that

1:07:14 Could or would share your pain and your losses, but I don't know if I'd choose to. If I could... But it is really good to have you here locally to talk with us We've seen you from afar and we're glad that you took the time to come talk with us I had several issues. Well, Iím not so much of a foreigner anymore. I am an American citizen. No, weíve seen you in the national media some and stuff but we havenít seen you locally here. I was down here at the South by Southwest music convention awhile back and spoke. Oh well, weíre glad that you are not a stranger to us! I had several points that i'd like to make. I'll try to be as brief and poignant as possible, Jeff cut me off if you have too here but there are several things that were not mentioned at the hearings or in the uh... I don't know if you caught the recent front line pdf

1:08:08 WGBH thing is the inside story that was a shown about ten days ago here in town, but that was pretty much another farce and yet another attempt to really bury the truth. But anyway it's the initial rough raw footage that Linda Thompson talks about having been shot of the initial dynamic entry by media Only we've only seen the edited versions of that and apparently the raw footage is not to have been found or I haven't seen it That's one issue another issue is of course the front door which the FBI apparently lost Which would have shown those direction over? gunfire And another thing was the BATF The BATF dynamic entry tape shot from a zoom camera 100 yards away from the front door, which showed up blank

1:09:03 Another point was the supervision of the site, the press being kept back. The evidence being apparently according to again I'm referring to a Thompson tape here of the evidence actually bulldozed up onto the burning heap and that sort of thing. That was ongoing while the fire was burning but after the fire began to cool off we have testimony from the TNICC which their state offices here in Austin

1:09:44 People that were working the site later on and which were friendly to what us told us that they have evidence the ATF Hired a contractor to bulldoze everything above ground after the fire They were not even supposed to be out there getting involved in gathering evidence or anything, but they had access before the Texas Rangers were ever brought in. I hear that, and I just want to get a little of this...I just wanna hit on several points here thats why we could talk about any of these for a long time and certainly you're, I consider you to be an authority and we are glad to have you here yeah I'm saying sort of thing in Oklahoma. They very quickly sort of raised that thing to the ground too, and it's basically a containment and...I'd like to turn this whole thing inside out though rather than looking in at the compound let's look out what the government was telling the American people by doing this which is basically intimidation or stigmatization and uh...and basically almost a Tiananmen type

1:10:44 you know situation tenement square type of situation to suppress any groups that would arm according to our constitutional rights and again none of this has to do with duck hunting I just want you to know that before the assault weapons ban and before the Waco raids, i was a liberal democrat and uh... environmentalist and then that was basically where i was coming from in every election Just so you know what has come out of this on our end. I am now a militia member, I'm a member of the NRA, and I voted straight ticket Republican in the last election although i have reservations about certain environmental issues there and I feel sorry that I've been pushed into that position but this thing has been deceitful since

1:11:32 the investigation of the dividends began but the governor of texas was lied to uh... from for the the met lab wasn't that right and a picture of pressure in the army worldwide to remember before the raid an american people have been wired to him at first beyond live they've actually use it as a propaganda leverage to stigmatize so anyway i don't think you know It's important, the really sad thing for me is having been activated and motivated by your situation, your losses. And I want to thank those of you who did stand up and actually shoot back. Okay? I'm not saying it was right to kill people on either side but I'm just saying as far

1:12:19 There's indications that you all weren't even shooting. There was no shooting there Well, I'm not saying that none of the people inside shot back in self-defense or in the defense of the women and children But I've never seen any proof Autopsy reports Thanks for your call brother. I want to get some calls The proof that we killed the ones who died Right there is something going on out there You're on air Yeah Jeff, Clive...I have a question for Clive At the hearing Didn't they portray a little girl named Carrie Jewel as if she was living at the siege, living there during the siege? And then also a Democrat member of the Congress said that she also survived the fire and that wasn't true. Let me just make it quick. This is Mike Hanson. Is that correct, Mike?

1:13:13 Is this Mike? Maybe. Well, I think it is anyway whether it is or isn't Mike Hanson Yeah, I got a question for him though because that's kind of Wednesday at 10 o'clock go ahead Kira Jewel was not living at Mount Carmel in fact She I don't think she ever lived at Mount Carmel for any real length of time She lived with her mother in California and their mother happened to be a schoolteacher in California the fact that they brought her into the hearings actually was like a smoke screen to cover up the real issues that were supposed to being decided by the House subcommittee. As far as her story is concerned, I can't say one way or the other because I wasn't there at this location that she tends to refer to but she told my daughter, my oldest daughter when she was living in California and my daughter was visiting and she said nothing ever happened

1:14:09 Her father was supposed to have been on the Larry King show and said he's glad he got her away from that place before David ever touched it. But now they're telling a completely different story, and you wonder why? You know what the motive is... Why is he putting his daughter through all this and making a public spectacle of her? And uh...you know what's the purpose? I was told that she left at 10 years old in 1991 Pardon? I was told she left in 1991 at 10 years old. Who did? The little girl, Carrie Jewell She... her father got custody of her, I believe in 92' I'm not sure the exact month when she left She went to visit him and never came back and then he filed for custody

1:14:58 Other than that, she'd been living with her mother. You're on air. Are there any Bible scriptures that you all believe refer to David Koresh? Can you give me some Bible citations that I can look up? We believe that there's a personage brought to view in Isaiah chapter 40 through chapter 66, A lot of these scriptures people think refer to Christ they take portions of the scripture out without reading them in context

1:15:40 If you were to read those chapters and consider what they're saying, you would see that it's somebody else other than Christ that is referring to. That somebody that would come and ultimately was to do a job on Babylon... if you read the book of Revelation, you'll find there is a messenger to come with the open book And as result of the work he does, Babylon or this one world government that has been put together Is going to fall and God's people are going to be rescued and saved out of it As far as any detail, you really need to come to a Bible study or something and spend some time. It's not something that you can point out in couple of sentences

1:16:19 And is there any stuff in Revelation, are there anything that point out to what happened at Mount Carmel in terms of the final end? There are scriptures all over that talk about how the beast power or the Babylonian power or the little horn power was going to persecute the saints and overcome them and kill them. I'm not saying that Mount Carmel was detailed fulfillment of that. We believe a lot of the prophecies and scriptures refer still in the future, will take place in the Holy Land but we sure got a preview and up close taste to what it would be like when its finally done in its fullness.

1:17:05 I am pleased to have a chance to talk with you. I'm very sorry what happened to you and all the other people that were there. One question that I've never heard discussed, and it probably has been and I just missed But early on during the siege, after the initial attack and after the firing had stopped when did those of you within the compound become aware or how soon did you become aware that this was an object of worldwide attention? Probably later that day we realized there was coverage being broadcast

1:17:55 We listened to the news each day, even after the electricity was cut off. Those of us that had batteries in our radios continued to listen to the news and realize it was pretty broad but we also saw covering up and lying going on a daily basis The media were being fed by the FBI and ATF And we were right there listening to them lying about what was supposed to have been done or said on a daily basis So we knew there was a lot of misinformation being fed to the world. I know that we've seen, uh... We had people from here in Austin that went out and videotaped where the press was pushed way back Could you see where the press was from the compound? In fact if you've seen any footage at all

1:18:48 Some footage that the press took from two or ten miles away whatever with their telescopic lens showing us Putting banners out saying we wanted the press To get involved, you know, I wanted to be able to talk to them. We we asked for various Concessions like that and of course were denied in the press would deny it You could see them if you couldn't see the press from where we were no good not now we could see There was a lot of trailers and tanks gathered about half-a-mile away from us, which I believe was one of the forward positions of the FBI that were on the scene. But as far as I know, the press were pushed way back out of sight from us... ...and the only ones that got any footage at all had huge towers built in telescopic lens.

1:19:42 Did you within the compound ever during these 50 plus days, did you ever discuss among yourselves surrendering peacefully? Walking out. Sure we did. On I think it was the second or third of March there was a plan where were all going to come out and it was discussed amongst the ones around me that well we'd just all walk out the front door And I told some of them, I says, I'm not gonna walk out the front door with you. I don't trust him. I said, I'll come out but I was going to go out a window of the chapel

1:20:21 my daughter and I, and we were gonna wait to see what happened to some of the ones that went out first. Whether they were shot at or not... We're real leery on what might happen you know? Did you have any communication with the people that left and then the children that were released did uh..did you have any communication with them after they had left? Not really They did send one time they sent a video in That they'd taken of the children who were put into foster homes and it just horrified the mothers that had conceded to let their children go out ahead of them because these children who had normally been so well behaved, obedient and respectful were just jumping around this place like animals. Jumping on the furniture with a Coke in one hand and ice cream in another, so to speak. A lot of the mothers weren't too happy with that video

1:21:16 Well, there's only one other area and I do appreciate that because I hadn't heard that discussed. That is interesting information to me but the other area you had a call a little while ago asking about what David believed about his role and what he was supposed to do and the fact that he was a prophet? If did I understand correctly that you understood David to believe that it was his role To break these seven seals or go to write the seven seals document? David used to challenge ministers of all kinds of churches and educated people at colleges and so on they'd say can you

1:22:05 open the seven seals to me. Can you explain what the book of Revelation and the rest of the Bible is all about?" And he would confront them with that, and when they couldn't do it, he said, well let me show you He said, if I can do it then I must be the Lamb. He makes statements like that but he definitely stated that he was not Jesus Christ Why did David wait until this event and until his life was in danger to start working on this thing that he thought he was placed on earth to do? He didn't! He started in 1983 Go ahead Clive you want a quick answer or do you have a final closing comment here

1:22:45 We've got about a minute to go here. I'm sorry to cut you off caller, but did you have a final... First off, first off, I appreciate you coming down from Waco and being on the Jeff Davis Show Club It's an honor to meet ya Did you have a... Well I just ask that you continue to write letters Congress, whether it'll do any good I don't know but continue to plague them that you know we're not happy with the hearings. We're not happy with the outcome of the hearings and we don't see any changes or any justice being done and as I said before

1:23:22 We've got nine people who were basically found innocent sitting in prisons and being harassed and deprived of their freedom when a jury found them innocent. I'm going to continue to speak out, and I hope everybody else will too." Not only that you've lost the property that we're on. Well, right... So, well Clive Doyle, I do appreciate your coming down here, coming on The Jeff Davis Show That's it. I don't know what my schedule looks like for the next few weeks, contracting is being changed around. Do appreciate the callers and once again Clive Doyle, I appreciate you coming on the show God bless y'all. The Constitution of America to the New World Order! We shall we must and will prevail because were willing to stand up against what happening. God Bless The Republic Of The United States!

1:24:37 Yes, thank you very much folks.