Living A Life Of Adventure with Anthony Willoughby

00:00 In this episode of the Team Super Dad podcast, I get together with explorer Anthony Willoughby to talk hitchhiking, traveling the world and living with nomadic tribe leaders. Roll theme. Welcome to Team Super Dad. Real dads creating their best lives ever. More time, more money, more fun. You are not alone. You're on Team Super Dad. Welcome to the Team Super Dad podcast. It is great to have you here. As always, nomadic tribe leaders. Try saying that in an introduction.

00:38 It's not easy. It's not easy. This is the Team Super Dad podcast. We are modern dads creating our best lives ever. More time, more money, and more fun. The most important part of that, more fun. If you've been here before, thank you so much for coming back. And if you're new, then welcome. It's great to have you on board. How did you find us? So, Anthony Willoughby is a dude. I won't tell you too much about how we met and stuff because that's in the conversation. But all our conversations together on the Team Super Dad podcast are about helping dads, you know, guide us through this minefield that is being a busy dad, working hard, trying to make our relationship the best it can be, having fun

01:22 with our kids, keeping healthy, eating right, going on holiday, buying a house. What else? God, blimey. Sleeping, fitting the matching, seeing old friends, making new friends, having a hobby, sex, like a lot of it, you know, whether you're married, you're trying to hold it together or thinking this could be better than this. Had a conversation with a lady the other day. The husband had an affair during lockdown and they've split up. You know, I don't advocate having an affair, that's for certain. If your relationship isn't working, then it's time to fix it or get out.

02:04 Don't do the dirty, you know. And if you've had it done to you, well, that's tough. I've worked with loads of dads who've been through that. But you've ultimately got to have a look at some of the responsibility in that. What was the relationship like? Why did she go off with someone else? What, like, you picked her, you know, did you pick a wrong and to start with? I see in so many single mum groups or parenting groups, mums talking about their dads being useless this and terrible that. And, you know, and you don't get a lot of love back when you say things like this. But you chose to have a kid with him. Like, you picked him. Pick better people to have children with, you know?

02:47 And maybe you did to start with. And maybe it's not going quite as you planned. That's what we do here at Team Super Dad. It's about working this stuff out. And this conversation with Anthony today is also about working stuff out. He's traveled the world. He's hitchhiked. He's passed that on to his kids. If you follow him on LinkedIn, the pictures are hilarious. He's got like their pictures of him sort of their 70s and 80s. And he looks like a cross between Monty Python and the gumball rally. You know, he's just on a mountainside with a bowler hat on, drinking champagne with a bunch of nomadic tribe leaders.

03:27 And the lessons that Anthony's learned on those travels, you know, through his life. You know, I think it's fair to say he's in the later stages of his life compared to some, for some of us. But it's wisdom. It's real wisdom. Learned from these tribes leaders, you know, how they bring up their boys, how they teach them the experiences of leadership, what it means to be a woman in these communities. And it's not all, you might think about it as old-fashioned and they don't have much say, but that's not the case either. And so Anthony now in his work is teaching and sharing a lot of this nomadic wisdom, this tribal rites of passage and guidance.

04:11 And he shares loads of that with us in this podcast. If you're a dad, well, that's probably why you're listening. If you're a mum, we do have a lot of mum listeners. Welcome. Spread the love. Share this with other men in your life. We are building the Team Super Dad community. You might like to come and connect with us in the network. You just go to teamsuperdad.com forward slash network and you can become part of that free group. And the Hero Academy. If you are ready to make gains in your life, to, you know, it's not all about fixing stuff, right? But there are things that we want to transform. You know, we could be really fit, but have no money. We could have loads of money, but a crap relationship with our kids. So it is about having it all. It's about making the gains.

04:55 Learning from experts, support from other dads just like you. That's what we're up to inside of Team Super Dad. And hopefully, as we move out of lockdown, we can start planning the face-to-face events again. Weekends, camping, firewalking events, adrenaline adventures, retreats with our families, the whole shebang. You're going to miss out if you don't come over to teamsuperdad.com and get connected. So we're five minutes in. Let's get on with the show. I'll see you on the other side. Good morning. How are you? I'm good, sir. How are you? Really well, thank you.

05:37 Brilliant. We met about a month or so ago, didn't we? And so, yeah, through a wonderful sort of strange connection, which I think what life is all about, which is serendipity and never knowing where a conversation will lead. Yeah, exactly. People would it would serve people well. I believe it serves myself well, and people should lean into this is when they have those like they part, I don't know, maybe as crude as passing somewhere in the street, but certainly on LinkedIn, lots of profiles come, you know, get come past me on the LinkedIn recommends or whatever. But you get, just get this feeling like you just notice someone and I and I noticed you. And then I was looking at straight away looking at your description.

06:22 And it was at the same time I was looking at rites of passage and different ways that fathers and their sons and fathers and their daughters pass on their experiences. And I shared with you when we first spoke about the experience I had at a American Indian powwow back when I was a teenager and how that had really like left a mark on me. I just had such an amazing weekend and I was wondering around the Team Super Dad courses because of my firewalking experiences. I was thinking, well, what could dads do with their sons? What kind of rites of passage?

07:05 What kind of lessons should we be passing on to our sons and daughters? And then there you were. There you were in my LinkedIn stream. So it's either as weird as they're all listening to us or the universe is in our favor. It's bringing us together. And I'd like to think it's the latter. Yeah. Although increasingly it probably is Google listening to us all the time. So tell us a little bit about your, I mean, there's so many things that we could tell us about, but just introduce yourself first and sort of who you are and what you do. And then we'll just literally dive back into your story and dig into this subject.

07:45 But yeah, tell us who you are and what you do. No, I'd be delighted. Well, I'm Anthony Willoughby. Thank you very much indeed. I've just turned 70 and I'm sort of life enthusiast, I think is how I would describe it. I am dedicated to Churchill's definition of success, which is the success in life is stumbling from one disaster to another while maintaining one's enthusiasm. I've set up an organization called the Cock Up Club when we get together to celebrate the wisdom of life experience. As a small boy, I was brought up in Africa, educated in this country, never understood a thing about what was going on here.

08:26 When was told, fortunately, I was far too stupid to go to university, but would I like to go to the States for a year? Did that hitchhiked around South America? And then at the age of 22, I hopped on the Trans-Siberian Express with 30 British agencies. I had a stall on the Bayswater Road selling bamboo hair slides and everything else. And I just wanted to get out of this country. And so I spent the next 30 years living in Japan. But I think, you know, rites of passage is a fascinating idea. And I think for me, some of my main lessons on that was

09:03 when I saw that when back in the late 70s or no, sorry, early 70s, late 60s, a play came out called Hair. And the women were naked on it and the men were naked. And it was really, really sort of avant-garde. And I was still at school and I went to the Shaftesbury Theatre and I watched this play and I thought, wow, fantastic. So I went backstage or I went to the stage door and I saw the door was slightly ajar and I pushed it open a little bit and then a little bit further and then I saw some of the hair cast. And I said, could I take a photograph, please? I said, yeah, of course. Please, I need some photographs for my playbill of hair.

09:48 And from sort of that moment onwards, I've always tried to push doors. doors that are half ajar open because you never ever ever know what's on the other side and I think that's the most important lesson in life I had is always always pushing that door that is half open and there are extraordinary things on the other side having that like a willingness a willingness to to explore a willingness to ask questions i think it's a willingness to trust yourself

10:26 uh i mean i've done about 40 000 miles of hitchhiking all over the world and that really started in the states when i started hitchhiking out during the spring break and what i saw really in hitchhiking you've got a sign saying trust me i am trustworthy because it's a two-way trust and i think that is something we've forgotten and i've done as i say 30 40 000 miles of hitchhiking i've never ever had a bad experience and i think the most important thing in life is to realize most experiences are going to be good it's having that trust in yourself how do you provide that trust in yourself and that's really been my sort of quest uh what i've been working on during my life is to try to understand what freedom of choice

11:19 gives me because i believe we really are and i certainly am the first generation to have the freedom of choice to shape my own destiny my father grandfather great grandfather the only thing they could do in life was to join the british army it was their duty it was their manifest destiny and i had that freedom and i think that's for all of us what is a huge challenge in life is what do we have to learn about ourselves mother nature human nature and our own potential if we want to enjoy that freedom of choice wow that's i mean

12:03 as a 46 year old man it's very easy to lose sight of those of of that very recent history you know and so you sit here you've just so eloquently put it we have these choices so many choices and yet many people in the world today will be will be talking about how how they feel restricted or they have you know it's not fair and and and so i had no blinding but ranging from loneliness to depression to to to money troubles and actually just in the space of a hundred years what you've pointed out is we've we've gone from no choice to maybe maybe it's too much choice yeah i'm not quite a hundred yet but i totally agree with you

12:48 that it is father great grandfather yeah i mean my father had absolutely no choice i mean he tells me you know he used to salute his toothpaste mug with king george on it you know when he was nine years old that was his duty every morning before he cleaned his teeth he was serving the king and and though that gave you no freedom it gave you identity and i think this is the whole thing of freedom of choice is frightening because it comes with responsibility and therefore what is that responsibility but what is your community

13:24 and until you can define your community where can you belong and be recognized which is obviously what i've been learning from indigenous communities around the world which is how do you define your identity by knowing where you fit into their territory and and do you think that's obvious you see it in indigenous tribes but also more traditionally in in our culture people had those defined roles butcher baker candlestick maker um does does whilst that doesn't give you as many choices does it make life easier it's it's it's less stressful perhaps yeah i mean you know i'm still reasonably convinced that it's only about five percent of people that really want to do something and hustle life yeah i mean i really do life is definitely freedom of choice to

14:13 self-select yourself to what you're going to do in life and i think so many people just are quite happy to have excuses to be a victim i mean you know talking about the covid thing you i don't i'm sure you you listened to people talking webinars right at the beginning six to eight months ago oh first you get angry then you get depressed then you get this then you get that and you know i just had to stop people in their tracks and say look i spent a lot of time in mongolia and east africa and in mongolia there's this particular expression i can't repeat it what it is in mongolian but basically the the translation is: shit happens, get on with it.

14:56 And, you know, I think we've got to address it. Yes, obviously, it's affecting me in many, many, many different ways. But I think, you know, now stability, security, certainty, structure, certainty, you know, all of this status and arrogance, they no longer work. Yeah. So people are no longer really that impressed by your BMW or the you've got director on your name card. And I think this is a glorious time for people to have to work out who they are. What are their importance? What are their priorities? What are they trying to do with their lives? And I think that is part of it, is looking at what your family is. What are your values? What are our blessings?

15:39 Yeah. So that's a good question. So where do people, maybe you know this from your own experience, or maybe you've seen it done in different ways. Where do people go to start? They're going to start to identify themselves. Where do they start with that? Well, I mean, I do a methodology called territory mapping, where you get people to sort of draw their territory. And this sort of really originated because I went on a camel safari in northern Kenya. And each evening, the Maasai would sort of wander into our little community. But what I saw is they had absolute presence.

16:15 They had substance without arrogance. And what I realized my entire education was how could you be massively arrogant with minimum substance? And my school also perfected effortless insincerity. And those, in my opinion, the only two things that it actually perfected. And so I went on this camel safari and I became fascinated. What do these people have that we don't? And that's when I then went off to Papua New Guinea. I met the ambassador in Tokyo. He said, why don't you go to my village? So I went off to his village in the highlands of New Guinea when they were still running around with feathers, headdresses, and, you know, 1980. Right, right. The highlands of Papua New Guinea. And I saw them wearing feathers.

16:59 I said, so why do you have so many feathers? They said, well, a big man has many feathers, but a bigger man can hand out his feathers. And I started to see that that was leadership. But there were so many people in Tokyo I'd spoken to where I was living at the time who thought that power was leadership. If I keep all the power, I will be more successful. But in an indigenous community, it is handing out your feathers. That is true power, the ability to contribute to your community. And then I asked about the spear. Why do you have a spear? They said, well, you have to earn it. You can't buy it. You can't sell it. You can't give it away.

17:42 You have to earn that spear. And the whole idea is leadership is earned. And I'm not sure whether you saw this morning about a hero in Afghanistan who was going to sell his medal. And the troops that he was with in Afghanistan don't mind that he got the medal, even though they're not quite sure he deserved it. But the idea that he will sell the medal for profit is so disgusting. And I think this is the same thing of trying to sell your spear. Have you really earned it? So when I got back to Tokyo, I became fascinated by feathers, spears, and the shield you have.

18:23 Who will protect you? How do you protect yourself? And that all comes from contribution. And when I asked the ambassador in Tokyo, what's the most important thing in his life, thinking he'd say his family, his community, he said, no, it is my territory. And he drew a map showing where his village was. And he said, from the age of three, I was taught to protect my territory. And therefore, I know my duty and I know my aims and ambitions. And what I've discovered inside everybody, there is a map. And once you start drawing a map of your territory, you start to get clarity.

19:03 And more importantly, when you start drawing the line, you start to see your leadership journey. You start to see where people started to follow you and why. And you can start to articulate what is important. Because once I have seen someone's map, you can't unsee it. And that's why so few conversations today have any context, because nobody really knows what they're talking about because they are words that are unconnected.

19:42 If that makes sense. Yeah, is that like they're not really present to what's going on around? They're not really present, but they just don't know because as I say, for the first 99.9% of human existence, every conversation we've had would have had relevance. Today we're going hunting crocodiles. Ah, there's too much weather. Rain. We can't cross the river. So we understand the problem we're trying to solve. But everything today is nebulous. We've got, you know, the coronavirus crisis. What does that mean to you? And everybody's perception of how they see it is different.

20:19 Is it a real enemy? What is it? So that's why it's so difficult for words and conversations because there is nothing embedding what we're talking about. I mean, that's why soccer and all these other things are so interesting. Ah, the goal. We know the ball got in the net, right? That is a result. And I think that's why sport is so interesting, because there is an actual result and we have a context of conversation. Got it. And that's what I think we've really lost in our own lives. What does it mean to be a successful father? What does it mean to be successful in life? And I've got a whole program.

20:57 I'm working with schools in Dubai and elsewhere. But is your leadership journey to a successful life define what a successful life is? And how do we articulate the success is having your family contributing, feeling valued. And I think we have to redefine success at the moment. And I think we have a fantastic opportunity to do it. But I think that comes back to knowing your territory, knowing your community and where you contribute. So foundational work inside of you. I think it is, but it's just simple. It's just what is it? What's your territory? Because it gives you hope. It gives you belief. What is the river I'm going to cross next month?

21:40 Where do I have to get to? You can start to articulate what you have to achieve. So by territory, do you mean like literally your location or where or your people? Well, to an indigenous person, they will draw their sort of their territory, where they're hunting and what's going on. But what I've discovered inside everybody, they can draw a map showing rivers, deserts, mountains, and swamps. It is so deep in our psyche that you just give someone a blank sheet of paper. What is your territory? Where do you see the hope, the journey? What are the waterfalls? I mean, I can show many examples of this if people would be interested in it.

22:27 Well, no, I thought let them try it. I mean, I think it'd be a bit difficult to show it now, but at some point, I'd love to show you the maps and how that works if people are interested. In the notes for this, if you're listening to this on the podcast, I'll put all the notes and links to Anthony's work. And I'll also, in these, in the Facebook or YouTube conversation, I will post some links. What I will do now is I'll post Anthony's website link in the chat. You know, there's not just as I say, it's a sort of friendly chat. I just love to talk to people. Please give them my email.

23:09 Let's have a talk. I mean, you know, this COVID thing, as I say, has provided masses of opportunities. But I just think one thing, talking about you and thinking about sort of being a father and everything else. I mean, obviously, I've got kids who are, you know, in their 30s and also in their late 20s or mid-20s. But when I was educating them, my father just, I said, how should I educate my children? He just simply said, make sure they play sports at which they can get seriously hurt. Yes, good. And that was his only real advice.

23:49 I know that might sound strange. I really didn't focus on their academics. I really didn't. I just wanted to know how well they played rugby. Did they do it with verve? Because I think the future really, really is about having that ability to adapt, really to be clear of where you are, where you're trying to go. Then you've got to be bold and you wonder. And that is really freedom. Because freedom, I believe, is simply a state of mind. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's deeper than what I did last week. But very, very true.

24:32 Well, you know, I made a video last week about doing dangerous things with your kids. And it was fireworks night. night. And my boy's 11, yeah, so he wants to burn. And if I leave a lighter around, next thing I can smell something burning, you know. So, you know, it's bonfire night, it's firework night. We're on lockdown here. So I just had a few family-sized fireworks for our backyard. But I let them light the firework. might think is ridiculous but they're gonna do it behind my back with no guidance and even more so if if the if the thought is oh this is something i'm not allowed to do this is something something i'm not old enough for

25:19 yet they're going to be more motivated to do it if i don't let them than if i actually engage in that thought they're having and say right here's the fireworks we're going to do this safely now and and and they bloody enjoyed it and it was a little bit hair raising at times but i i totally agree with you and and and believe that we should do dangerous things with our kids i think we've got to i mean my children have been staying with me in mud huts since the age of eight uh because i spend a lot of time with indigenous people and they used to come on my research trips so we'd literally sleep in mud huts go out get 30 feet from 40 feet from elephants wandering around uh but the main thing was and also i think i if i've mentioned but when my children get to 16 i send them to live with the maasai i

26:05 send them to africa with a mate for about six weeks when they do white water rafting they do uh they stay with the maasai but most importantly well that's for a week when they really do wander out and they get fairly close to elephants and generally have a good life um they also got the stories for the girls you know when when i drank the blood when i killed the goat now this might sound barbaric but this is what children have been doing since time began yeah so i think we have to encourage our children to be brave to recognize courage you know watching

26:42 kids on skateboards god how do they do it i mean i've got nothing but admiration for them yeah but i think we've got to start admiring our kids when they show courage because that's what they're going to need going forward yes math is important but courage i believe is what we're going to need especially now and to have your own dynamic direction of where you're going yeah it's in actually in schools now the opposite is all too common because they're so academically driven on the one hand but they're also so terrified of something bad in inverted commas happening to children you know my daughter has

27:22 wanted to make youtube videos since she was four years old and and and she kind of does but the school have got so up in her head about it's dangerous to be online that she's now caught between this weird feeling of i can see lots of other kids making these things on youtube and i want to do it but my school's telling me it's bad to yeah and i've been having to say to them it's only bad if you do it in a you know it's only risky if you do it in a stupid way correct and that's what they've got to try the one percent of idiots you know talking to my kids about drugs i said for god's sake i've got nothing whatsoever against you taking drugs that's fine i mean you know

28:01 please go and do it you know i've i haven't done much but i mean you know but the only thing there's problem is if you get caught you get a prison record if you get a criminal record your life can be you can't certain countries you can't go to etc so don't do it not because it's bad for you that's fine i drink how can i drinking alcohol say don't take drugs i mean you know etc so how on earth can we try to get the kids to do something because we tell them we should they shouldn't do it the only thing you can tell them is if you do it you're going to break the law and that's probably not a sensible thing for your life well i had the same conversation with my stepson he's he when he was 16 17 he was asking me questions about smoking weed about cannabis and he was asking me in a way like what do you think and do you know and i said look

28:52 pretty much any friend of mine you've met including myself has smoked weed and probably more than that was sensible yep correct so and i said to him i'm not going to tell you it's good or bad in fact i'm going to tell you straight up i've had some some of the funniest times of my life smoking weed and taking drugs with my friends this is what your friends won't tell you when your friends are passing it to you and encouraging it to you to do they won't tell you what to do if you've had too much or what to do if you feel sick or what so so given that you're asking me this i'm going to tell you all that stuff now yeah now i know that if he does you know go to a party he's going to in

29:32 his mind he's going to be better equipped to know what to do do. And best of all, if something does go a bit wrong, if he's not feeling very well, he's got the confidence to call me. Yep. Which is all I ever want to know is that if one of my kids needs me, I'll be there. Yeah, and probably he's also got the trust if something goes wrong for a mate of his, he'll also be able to go and help him out because their parents might not, and they'd be too terrified. So, no, I absolutely agree with that. No kid didn't do something because their parent told them not to. Yeah, of course they will. That said, I'm not supposed to do this. I probably should then. But I think the thing that the kids really, really, really hate is hypocrisy. Yeah.

30:13 Yeah. I really do. And I mean, you know, in Kenya, this is why I spend a lot of time with the Maasai and the nomads. You know, from the age of three, they get, you know, you've got three goats to look after for three meters for three hours. I mean, obviously, they don't necessarily have time, etc. So they know from an early age what they're responsible for, what they have authority over, and who they're accountable. So all through their life, then they become a warrior. Or, you know, so therefore, they then know their responsibilities, look after the goats to be brave. And again, it's all around respect, responsibility, courage. And then they move on from the spear to becoming a junior elder.

30:56 And at that point, they get told, you no longer need the spear. We know that you are brave. And I always remember once seeing a scar on a Maasai's face. I said, why do you have a scar? He said, ah, it shows I am a gentleman because it shows I can withstand pain. So I never have to be aggressive because people know I am brave. And this whole idea of known for courage. And that seems to be what is so important. And then you move, though. And I've been to the ceremony when they move from being a warrior to being an elder.

31:37 It is four days of them being told their responsibility, authority, and accountability has changed. That is the journey to leadership. The leadership journey remains a journey, but the most important thing is how, on that journey, your responsibility, authority, and accountability changes. And that's what I've tried to do with my children: to look at this leadership journey. When you leave school, when you leave university, when you get a new job, you always have the same mountains of self-doubt, of resilience or resistance.

32:20 You also have, you know, the swamps you have to get out of. It is a circular journey that you keep coming back to. And the most important thing is how you adapt and how your responsibility, your authority, and your approach to life changes, and how people are seeing you reacting to it. And as a community, you know, you've seen these communities operate those stages of life. Yeah. Are people more comfortable, more confident in those stages of life? They're more settled in those stages of life. Yeah. And I think this is where there's a look, everything there is a yin and a yang.

33:05 Okay. So, you know, yes, they've got the respect, the responsibility, and the values. But yes, again, it's restrictive. It's a bit like the English society or the system. I mean, you split civilization exists by splitting power, wealth, and status, and you're always chasing the third one. You know, my father's in the British Army in India, tiny bit of status, zero wealth, tiny bit of power. But I remember once speaking to one of the children of the emperor in Japan. And, you know, so he is literally a living God. Right. And he went off to America, et cetera, and he'd been to Canada.

33:47 And so I said, gosh, when you come back, I mean, do you sort of, you know, must be an amazing being. He says, no, they confiscate my passport when I get back to immigration. So could you imagine being a living God with no power? So, you know, this is the thing, I think, this is why we need to look at, which I like about the Indigenous people, they have the power of their own personality. They have the wealth of their life experience, and they have the status that they can contribute. And I think if we know that we are growing as an individual, we can contribute to a community. That I think gives us peace of mind and identity.

34:31 growing as an individual and contributing to our community. And practically, being living in England, right, or wherever people are listening to this around the world, we've got a lot of listeners in America as well as the UK. Can that be as practical as volunteering in your community? I think basically what you're doing. I think what you're doing. No, I think basically what you're doing is phenomenal. You're creating a community of people to give them hope. They're all crossing their rivers, looking at the mountains, looking at the children, guiding them with it. You're playing an incredibly important role in the community of giving people hope.

35:16 And I think what you have done and how you've done it for yourself and others, that is what I think people need to think about. The community is necessarily volunteering. It's where you're going to be respected and how you're going to be respected from what you do, which is how you behave and how you treat people. That's what I've loved about our conversation. You have created an extraordinary avenue to give people hope. What more can be more valuable for you or for the community? Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that. But it's true. In our culture, we don't often get acknowledgements very often.

35:59 And conversely, people aren't necessarily that good at taking acknowledgements to actually listen to what's being said and accept it. So I genuinely am grateful to hear that word. Thank you. But you're playing the role of an elder. You know, you know what you're responsible for, which is for your community. So you've got the, you know, the authority. You show respect. Everybody respects each other. You know, everybody who joins has got to have courage. So they know what they're responsible for. So you've got the respect, the responsibility, and the courage. That's, you know, that's peace of mind, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, totally.

36:36 Wow. As you're saying that, I'm really thinking about how we can, how we can parent respect, responsibility, and courage, putting that into our kids or giving our children space for that to be something they take on board. Courage, we talked about doing dangerous things. I think that's important. Also, courage in speaking up. Oh, God, yes. That's the number one thing people are terrified of. Get people talking. I mean, I've got wonderful interviews with Joseph Nombre from Papua New Guinea, the ambassador, and he remembers first contact. But his rule in life is a leader has to be able to have oratory skills.

37:19 Sorry, one second, Anti. Just to be clear, you're talking about first contact. That's the day their tribe made first contact. First contact in about 1948 in the highlands of Papua New Guinea, and he remembers it. No, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps you saying that. People become so disconnected to history. And, you know, we're talking, what, 40 years ago? So 80 years ago, which is one lifetime, really. And these people had no contact with the outside world. And you're meeting someone who's there and experienced that. So sorry, Peter. And he's the one who taught me about territory. Right. Okay. You know, he's the one, this is the ambassador, you know, from Papua New Guinea. He left as a small boy. And, you know, how he rose through the ranks is amazing.

38:00 But that's why his words I find are such wisdom, because they're not clouded by our Western what is right or wrong. It is just what is right to be a dignified human being. And that I've discovered is the same in Mongolia, in East Africa, or in Papua New Guinea. It is that ability to contribute. And that is what we seem to have lost. But he talked about the most important thing for leadership is the ability to have oratory skills. So I think, yes, I agree. Getting children to step up, to speak, to articulate their hopes and their dreams, that is the ultimate beginning of leadership.

38:45 And that's what I'm trying to do on these programs I'm running with Dubai, to give the children the mental resilience, the mental machinery to have a successful life, to define the life skills they need, and realize most or 99% of that is below the line. It is not their math score. It is who they are. And that's what I think we have to recognize. And also in Africa, they always say the small boy is the first to spot the hyena. I.e., we've got to listen to the children talking about the most important things.

39:24 and maybe seeing things that we haven't as adults and how we can work with them, especially now with all of these challenges everybody faces. Yeah, yeah. And do you think the wisdom of indigenous tribes is being lost? Yeah, it is being totally and utterly lost. I mean, it's just sort of the normal enslavement. They want to enslave everybody. I mean, we're all enslaved because, you know, our trusts in ourselves and others are deliberately diminished by the system. So, yes, I mean, nomads always terrify governments because they can't be taxed, but also it's a state of mind.

40:06 Yeah. Yes, we're losing it. I mean, if you think the Chinese built 20,000 miles of walls over about 3,000 years to keep the Mongolians out, because the Chinese believe the more you own, you know, the more important you are and the more cluttered your life can be. Whereas to a nomad, the less you have, the more you are. Because they've got that freedom, that ability to move and ability to adapt. And I think that's what we need to realize. Freedom is the ability to adapt. And therefore, yes, all the wisdom is being lost. And that's why I enjoy talking to them so much. It will be gone. We will all be enslaved.

40:53 Yeah. Sorry, this is deep stuff. It's making me think about Indigenous, you know, Australian, Indigenous, New Zealand, obviously the American Indians across North America and Canada. I mean, I wonder what the world would look like if more of those tribal lessons, rites of passage, the history there. I wonder what the world would look like if that had been not just treasured, but actually incorporated into modern life. Yeah, it's rather intimidating for most people to actually have to realize that A, they might have to listen to someone,

41:32 you know, who hasn't owned, doesn't own as much as them and has got wisdom and insights. So I entirely agree with you that it's it is, yes, it is intimidating. And it's taken me 40 years since I first went to Papua New Guinea. And I started to see the feathers, the spears, the shields, knowing your territory. It's taken 40 years to start to build this bridge of relevance to people. And finally, people, in 1988, I wrote up, I will set up an organization that is going to unlock trust and willpower in people.

42:14 That was based on my journeys in expedition. Trust and willpower. Back in 1988, everybody went, yeah, great idea. Finally, 33 years later, people are saying, wow, trust is important. I've just read it in a Harvard Business Review. Yeah, I mean, it's been with us since time began. If you don't trust yourself, others, and the laws of mother nature and our environment, how can we be fulfilled? You know, how is that possible? I don't believe it is because we've lost the value of trust

42:53 in ourselves or in others or in all of it? I think in all of it. I mean, our entire education system is not about giving people trust. It's about making them feel inadequate and insecure. You know, it really is. I mean, this is why I always admire the idea of a butcher or a baker. They can actually do something and make something. You know, there's nothing we can do. We're not educated to do anything useful. No, not at all. I'm screwed. If Armageddon comes, I literally have screwed. How do you make a hut? How do you do this? How do you bow an arrow? How do you hunt an animal? We can't do anything. And to me, it's almost deliberate enslavement.

43:38 It really is. Whereas again, the nomads, I remember being up with up in the Arctic with some Inuit. And there were some BBC cameramen up there making a thing, a documentary. And the Inuit asked them, how do the cameras work? And they said they didn't know. And the Inuit were absolutely, totally confused that anybody would have something that they didn't know how it worked. Because if you don't know how something works in that community, you die. Yeah. Now, I just sort of digress again with another Maasai story, but I remember being up in northern Kenya with the Maasai up there.

44:19 said, so can you take me to leader? Who's your leader around here? And they looked at me in disbelief. And they said, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Because we have many leaders. Tell us what the problem is. And we will find the most appropriate person to come up with the solution. And, you know, and I think if you think about, you know, everybody looks to their father for the answer or they look to themselves for the answer. No, that's not the best answer often. It is knowing who you can talk to, who will provide you with the best answer. Yeah. Is there a, you know, when you, when you're approaching a, it sounds like you've explored the world, right?

45:05 You've, you, you've, am I right in picturing you walking up to Maasai tribe, you know, all the these in it. You don't know them. You've not seen them before. You're just Anthony and you're approaching. Oh, I'm here. Hello. Welcome. You know, can I come and sit down with you? What's that? What's that feeling like? You've traveled, you've walked, you've, you've, you've human a car, been on a camel, you know, turned up in their huts in Mongolia. You know, the girs are open. You can go in and help yourself. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I always turn up. Hello, I'm here. And, you know, in the tribal lands, that's a natural way.

45:45 Anybody you see, you're welcome. You know. Any intrepidation there? Are you excited about what's going to happen next or both? No, I've always, always just walked in. Hello, I'm here. You know, it's fine. I've never had a problem. I mean, that's in Kenya, Papua New Guinea. Yes, in Papua New Guinea, that is still pretty wild, etc. And someone said, please come to my village. And I said, yeah, I need to meet your leader first. I need to meet your chief because you really want to be careful on that. And I remember, again, in Papua New Guinea, when we walked across it from the Fly to Sepik Rivers, about 180 kilometers, we had some carriers who were carrying our stuff.

46:26 And we got to a small stream. And they would not cross that stream because they knew they'd get eaten on the other side. And, you know, the sort of concepts of territory. But, you know, now I've never felt under any sort of real problems. It's just getting out there. I mean, still, I'm, you know, I say I'm 70. I'm still falling off wild camels. A couple of years ago, I did that. And a couple of years ago, I was also joining nomads on their migration through the Altai Mountains. And again, that was fabulous being with a family, 500 head of livestock, minus 30. They've got to move their herd 120 kilometers. But just being with a group of people, we know what we're doing.

47:11 We know why we're doing it. We know how we're doing it. And we have the courage and confidence to adapt to it. And that was just a glorious sense of focus. They were absolutely clear. They were bold. And they had that sense of freedom of knowing what they were doing and their purpose. And it was a wonderful experience. And so positive, I imagine, for the, I don't know what the younger generation there are, like, whether it's like teenagers and stuff. There's, there's, what's what's yeah, it is the whole responsibilities. There's teenage boys and girls and they're they're they're following their parents.

47:51 No, they're all part of it, following in their footsteps. How much longer they will do that for, you know, one doesn't know. And again, it's, you know, this is what's being lost. But again, it's not for you or me to say, hey, then they want to move out of their mud hut or their gur or something like that. I mean, Jesus Christ, I tell you, I mean, you spend four nights in a mud hut in Kenya, you are exhausted. No water, no nothing. You know, they've got to carry the water. And you think, well, yeah, I understand they want a better life than that. And that is obviously their own dichotomy. And Emmanuel Mancuro, my Maasai friend, speaks about it at length of how do you deal with adaptation?

48:34 You know, how do you adapt to the current environment while maintaining your values? And I think that's a question for us is how do we create our values while adapting to the environment we find ourselves in? And do we have to redefine them as our territory becomes disrupted? Yeah. And that level of consciousness is a very practical exercise. I mean, inside of Team Super Dad, I've got a values exercise, which is explore your own values, be clear on your own values. Yeah. Which isn't anything complicated or, you know, ethereal woo-woo out there.

49:10 It's just get clear on what you stand for and what feels right to you. so that you can relate to other people, you can connect with like-minded people, you can know what doesn't work for you, what doesn't work for you. And it is, it is really, really, really clear and simple. And that's why I love talking to Indigenous people because they know it. There's no bullshit about it. I mean, someone sent me could I join some panel, and it literally was about 15 words of absolute gibberish. I mean, it really was. It was psychological, environmental, something, something which is to do with education. And I wrote back saying, Look, I'm really sorry. This is total bullshit and jargon.

49:54 You know, we've got to start calling it. We've got to start. You know, everybody wants you to be a victim. Oh, when were you a victim in your life? You know, oh, it must be your mother's fault. God, I've been a victim often, but it's always of my own stupidity. Yeah, you know, and I think we've got to start stopping letting other people, you know, play with our minds. We've got to start enjoying our own souls. Yeah, totally. Taking responsibility at the end of the day. Yeah, it's simply and enjoying life. Enjoying being alive. We have freedom. We have freedom. Well, that's the essence of your cock up club, right?

50:34 That is to celebrate the cockups, to celebrate the uh, yeah, it is. I mean, I can tell you why I said it up. When I came back from Japan about 20 years ago, I sort of came back, trying to settle in England, and I'd meet people, I'd talk about exactly what we've been talking about. And they'd say, you know, it's really interesting. Here's my card. When can we meet for lunch? So I ring them up next day. Fantastic meeting you. When can we meet for lunch? And it happened twice over 10 days. Someone said to me, two people said to me, you know, you are the most boring little man I've ever come across. How could I possibly be interested in your ideas about what you could learn from Africans? I mean, you know, I'm very successful.

51:14 I've got my own company. Really? I thought you realized when I said, yeah, let's meet for lunch that you knew that was the only way I could terminate the conversation. So, I mean, that really happens. I was with a mate of mine. I thought, Christ, I'm speaking English to people. I can't understand them. And I think this is the whole thing in life. We don't understand each other because there are so many nuances. So I then sat down. What do we have to do to find people who think like us? So that's when we set up the cock-up club. And that is literally, I would have cards printed saying I was chairman of the cock-up club.

51:56 So I either got when's the next cock-up dinner, or I don't do cock-ups. But it's the only way because how do you get people who've got the right attitude? I mean, so many people today have wolf spray for sheep. Hello, I'm very successful. You know, but you know, when you listen to them, at the end of the day, they're just going, you know, now is no longer the time for wolf spray for sheep. And that's what I think is so exciting now. And children to learn that it's not around their academics, it's around their ability to communicate.

52:37 It's the ability to contribute to their friends, to their peers, to work on projects. And that's where I really, really hope the future is. And that's what I'm working on at the moment. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And just finally, because you just mentioned that, right? What can a man do to sort of pull that brave sense out of him? You know, what, like, if, particularly in the world we live in today, right? We're all a little bit sort of henpecked by life. The sense of adventure and our own masculinity is a little bit lost or faded. You know, in your experience, and maybe I know some of the some of the programs you run and stuff,

53:20 like what can the average guy do to tear some just to tear some strips off himself to reveal a bit more of that stronger, the wolf, to be, to, to be, to be yeah, but I also think the whole idea of strength, humility is strength. Right. I really, really passionately believe it. Good leadership is the humility of authority. Good leaders have earned their spears. And I think it would be exceptionally arrogant of me to think that I can give people advice on this. It's just some of the things I've done with my own life. But really sort of drawing out my own territory, seeing what I appreciate, working with others.

54:05 And as you're doing with your group, I mean, getting fathers together, not really. really to introspectively what's right or wrong about themselves, but to think of a bridge they can cross together. Think of, you know, a journey they can go on together. That is what I think people can do. It's far more around talking to people about what are we going to do together than trying to do it on your own. Because I'm useless at doing things on my own. Whenever I'm feeling negative or whatever, I know about three or four people I can ring up. Hey, let's plan this journey. Let's go and have a glass of wine. Let's move. And so you've got this lovely sort of dynamic of movement from where we are.

54:49 And I think it's creating that dynamics. And I'd love to talk more about the mapping if that could be helpful for people at some point. And I'd be delighted to do that. Well, listen, this is we reach sort of the top of the top of our chat. Just do that. Tell people about the nomadic business school of business and what you do for people. I mean, it's really around just getting people to think about their leadership journey in life. My program with students now is really what your journey, your leadership journey to a successful life.

55:26 Starting to get them to define what a successful life means. And then I've got people like Nelson Mandela's prison guard, who's an amazing bloke called Christo Brand. Rebecca Stephen, who's climbed Everest and the Seven Summits, amazing first British woman to do it. Krishna, who is a Gurkha, joined the SA, joined the Gurkhas, invited to join the SAS, then went on to climb Everest three times. And those are the people that I want to talk to students about what is a successful life. How did they get through their mountains of self-doubt? How did they cross their limiting belief rivers? How did they get out of the swamp of being stuck in debt in a dead end situation?

56:11 And that's what I want children to hear about. How did they get through it to give them the hope that they can see their own roots through it? So that's really what I'm working with students on. I'm now developing this in for individuals as well to use it in their own lives. And then for corporates using the mapping to obtain some clarity of what's important, because it all starts with a map. It all starts with knowing where you are, where you're going and how you're going to get there. And that is what most of us have been robbed with or from, that we haven't had that clarity. Because up until now, really, it hasn't been necessary because everybody goes into an office. Everybody's far too busy to actually have to think about anything.

56:54 And now is the time to think. And that's why I think finally, and then to be honest, this last eight months has been a massive opportunity. It's been the most exciting time of my life because finally people are realizing you have to trust things and you have to unlock your willpower to see things differently. So for me, it's been a really, really exciting time of opportunity. And if anybody would like to talk to me about this, please, please get in contact. Well, I'm sure they will. So your email address is anthony at nomadicschoolofbusiness.com. That is it. Yeah. And this is the beginning of a movement. I mean, literally, it's been really exciting, really exciting talking to you.

57:36 And I can't commend you high enough for what you're doing. Well, I appreciate you saying that. And you know what? It is a journey. It's an adventure. Something you said today, I've just written it down. You just said loads of things, but you just said it here. It's a journey we go on together. So whether that's life is a journey we go on together. Team Super Dad is a journey we go on together. Our family, you know, your childhood is a journey we go on together. I think that's just, that's, that's beautiful. That is absolutely powerful and beautiful. Yeah. And that is genuinely how I see it. And once you can see where it is and where you see the waterfalls, then

58:17 it becomes easier to work on them together because we all face those waterfalls, etc. So love that. So what is this? It's just funny. Swamps, deserts. Oh, swamps, deserts, mountains, and jungles. I mean, they're all naturally deep, deep, deep and rivers to cross. But once you can start to identify the river or the mountain, it becomes so much more dynamic and interesting. I mean, I have on my screensaver, I have my map of what I'm going to do of my business. I know, you know, we've got to cross the sort of onto the plateau to where the future is.

58:59 And the future is around trust, clarity, and, you know, and agility. That's what people and organizations. organizations need. But how do you guide them to thinking that's what they need? Because most people so far have thought the more they can clutter their lives with what they own, the more successful they are and the greater the status. And this has somehow got to be flipped because it's no longer, you know, it doesn't work anymore. Well, that's the brave new world that's going to come out of this. I know. And that's Lila. Let's go and populate it together. Yeah, brilliant. Well, Anthony, we are, I definitely would love to do some workshops. We didn't even discuss it, do some workshops inside Team Super Dad for the Hero Academy group.

59:43 And there's the next intakes coming at the beginning of December. So we'll talk about doing that in 2021 and making that happen. Brilliant. It's been an absolute pleasure. Words can't really do it justice, really, to have had this hour with you today. My mind crosses to another guy I featured on the podcast called John Hall. He was the youngest captain of a merchant navy ship. And he shared his stories of traversing the seas of the world. He grew up in India. I'm going to introduce the two of you because he is an absolute classic guy, probably very much of the same ilk and age.

1:00:26 And I think you talk on like a household. I'd love to talk to him. I really would. So hold tight. I'll end this and we'll say goodbye afterwards. Anthony, pleasure. See you soon. Thank you very much indeed. Cheers. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Well done. You made it through. You are the hour crew. Just Anthony, what a top load. I love learning from, I love learning from people of all age, to be fair, but when you're talking to an older guy, and I mean that with all respect, it's just brilliant to hear,

1:01:03 yeah, I've used that word before, that wisdom. Just the adventures that he's been on, the strength of character, and some of the old-fashioned stuff as well. You know, there's a lot to be said for good traditional sort of morals and perspectives. But also just like the idea that standing on the side of a road and hitchhiking across America and sending his boys out to do the same. I flipping love that. And so, yeah, it just resonates totally with my outlook on life and the principles of Team Super Dad and everything we do inside the Hero Academy. So if you've enjoyed that and you want to know more about everything that we're up to, then come on over to teamsuperdad.com forward slash network to join the free group and forward slash teamsuperdad.com forward slash hero academy to make sure to secure your place to get in on the next intake of the hero

1:01:55 academy. That's it for this show. We'll see you on the wrap-up. More madness, banter and laughter, definitely with Glenn this week and maybe a couple of extra guests we shall see as Riley as Friday Rideaf rolls around as Friday rolls around. Thanks for being here, guys. Team Super Dad out. Bye. This has been Team Super Dad. Find us at teamsuperdad.com.