20: Separate but Equal

00:05 MoFax with Adam Curry for January 6th, 2020. This is episode number 20. First show of 2020. How you doing, Mo? I'm doing well, Adam. How you doing? Good, man. Happy New Year. Same to you, sir. Same to you. It's so 20th episode of Mo Facts with Adam Curry. And this is the year. We're going to start asking people to participate actively and support the work. I think we've proven our value. I hope so. Of the last 19, I hope they found some value in it, you know, and returned a favor.

00:42 Or return, yeah, the favor, return the value for sure. Yeah, the value. So the value for value system successfully deployed at the No Agenda Show is very simple. You listen to this show an hour, hour and a half, two hours, whatever the length it is. Did you get anything out of it? Did you learn anything? If you did, translate that into your own value and send it to us. Mofax.com or mofundme.com, M-O-E-FundMe.com. All right, Mo. I'm excited to find out what you got lined up for us. What are we going to talk about? All right. So if people don't know, that's a Kanye West school spirit. And I had a little school spirit. So I want to talk about the segregation of schools. Oh, okay.

01:26 All right. All right. We had alluded to this topic on a couple of other shows talking about segregation. And that's such a big topic. I wanted to break it down and maybe into segments. And we'll talk about the final stretch of the integration process. And that was the schools. All right. Excellent. So just to lead off, I want to start with a little MLK. I have a dream. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creeds.

02:08 We hold these tools to be self-evident that all men are created equal. I have a dream that one day on the red hills of John, sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will they be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood. I have a dream. My four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have a dream. It's a classic

02:50 classic clip on MoFax. Nothing like that. Yeah, so that's the that is the whole meme or encapsulation of the civil rights movement, integration, and the defeating of segregation. So I wanted to start off with that. I've said this on a show several times that I am against forced integration. Forced is the key word there. Yes, I think that's a universal issue. Forced is never a good, especially not if the government's forcing you to do something.

03:29 Correct. And the reason why I started off with the I Have a Dream speech is that's because that is where everybody is mentally set on the subject of integration. That it would just set that work. You know, King was successful. But even King himself has some doubts before his death. And I have a clip of Harry Bond, Harry Belafonte speaking on that topic. The last thing Dr. King said to me before he was murdered

04:07 was in my home when we were sitting planning strategy for the poor people's campaign, which was on the horizon of the politics of the day. Martin said, you know, I've been thinking long and hard about our struggle. We worked tenaciously for our rights. And the culmination of all that effort will be reflected in what we've come to call the integration movement. And I sit here deeply concerned that I suspect we're leading our nation on an integration trip that has us integrating

04:55 into a burning house. Okay. Have you heard that statement before? The burning house? Yes. No. No. The only burning house I can think of is talking heads burning down the house. That's not going to help us. So this is a very, how can I say it? In certain circles, this is a very popular statement of Dr. Martin Luther King's, but not to the masses. Okay. That at the end of his life, you have to have a secret handshake to get into this circle. Well, no, it's not that. It's that in the mainstream, they would never

05:41 propagate this side of Martin Luther King. They want to keep him the I Have a Dream King, not the second guessing of the house burning down. Right. Or integration itself is, was this the right move? Now it's very popular in our community, the quote-unquote black community, to second guess integration because we look at the results of it. And that's what this show, in this episode, we're going to really dissect how we got to the point of integration and the results of integration.

06:21 And not only now, looking back, you know, because hindsight is 2020, we're going to look at some notable figures at the time. And even they weren't as pro-integration as the mass media would have you to believe. So I have some clips here. We're going to start at the present day and see how integration has failed to the point that schools are probably just as segregated as now as they were in the 50s and 60s. And we have the Atlantic can schools integrate, can school integration make a comeback one?

07:01 The vast majority of white children living in the city have access to a high-performing neighborhood school. The vast majority of black students have guaranteed access to nothing. Do you think we're betraying the legacy of Brown Deborn? Absolutely. We have defied it in every way that you can. America's schools are the most segregated they've been in almost 50 years. And for decades, the federal government hasn't been doing anything about it. Today's typical white student attends a school that is nearly three-quarters white. The average black student goes to one that's almost entirely students of color.

07:42 In 1954, Brown versus Board of Education declared that segregated schools should be dismantled with, quote, all deliberate speed. We're sliding back into the two unequal systems Brown promised to get rid of. One for low-income black and Latino students and another for more affluent white and Asian students. Yeah, this is a topic that interests me a lot. I follow this in Austin mainly because now I'm a homeowner, so I'm a taxpayer and I'm an old fart and now I get to bitch and moan about stuff. So I've been, I follow what's happening with the Austin school districts. We have closings and this is one of the most liberal cities in America. It's a very odd place here in Texas.

08:27 But it's a big NIMBY, not in my backyard. It's always big talk, big mouth. But I believe, from what I understand, the schools are incredibly segregated in Austin. And I don't know if you're going to talk about this at all, but charter schools is now, you know, they're cropping up everywhere. And this is, on one hand, can be great, but on the other hand, it makes the problem even worse. So, yeah, I can attest to this definitely being the case. It's amazing that we're back to the future. The main thing that they try to get rid of, you can't.

09:07 It's human nature. Hey, Mo, Mo, you know, when you get to be as old as I am, you start picking up on a trend. Yeah, this happens a lot. You can't change people's, how people feel. Right. And that was how naive the civil rights, quote-unquote, civil rights movement was because it was like, oh, we'll just force our kids to, you know, force this love on you, you know, and pull it out of, you know, pull the equality, you know, equality out of you. I have, I have an analogy for you. Here, another one in Austin, they decided we need bikes. They just, you know, painted bike lanes on the roads downtown and in, you know, lots of places, but downtown is a lot of bike paths.

09:52 You can't just paint that and say, oh, it's going to work. to work now. And cars won't be making right-hand turns, cutting bikes off, driving over them. It takes a long time for these good intentions to really work, if ever. There's no evidence it's working. It's dangerous to ride your bike here. And that's an excellent analogy because the two have to learn how to coexist with each other. Exactly. But when you force these two things that normally don't coexist or maybe shouldn't share the same space, that has to be learned. That's why I'm totally against forced integration. Now, if you choose to want to be integrated, like our podcast is, this is a choice. And we come here and we have a conversation. You're not a white guy? What?

10:37 No. What? Yeah. Stephen A. Smith, I'm a black man. Okay. So I wonder, and how can I put it nicely? The people that were behind this civil rights movement, was this a kind of forced anarchy? Who knows? Because when you start peeling back the layers of who was running the civil rights movement, the NAACP, we've talked about that extensively, who they really were.

11:18 When you look about the communist ties to the civil rights movement, that they, that's one form of protest is anarchy. So was this a form of anarchy? But we'll talk about that a little later. Let's get into comeback two. Integration worked. In 1988, the achievement gap between blacks and whites was half of its pre-brown levels. No other education policy has ever come close to matching that success. So why'd we turn the other way? There was significant progress in terms of creating schools that were more racially and socioeconomically diverse.

11:58 But we have to acknowledge that there were other places where that didn't happen and where there was real resistance. Parents didn't want black and Latino kids coming to their schools. They ain't going to be in my grandson class. Not here they ain't. Some aggressively lobbied lawmakers and brought cases to the courts. Eventually, this resistance worked. Over the last three decades, school segregation has come back. So interesting to hear one of those older clips was, you know, my grandkids, they're not going to come over here to my school. I wonder if that still goes on, that kind of talk.

12:44 Maybe in a hushed tone, but I'm sure it still happens. It's just, I find it strange, just me being who I am, to force yourself into a situation. I never understood the civil rights movement of forcing yourself to lunch counters, forcing yourself into other people's schools. We had Plessy versus Ferguson, and that was in 1892. And that was kind of like where separate but equal was established.

13:25 And if I'm from the viewpoint of if we're going to fight anything in the Supreme Court, let's have the black schools be equal to the white schools. Because that was the claim that all they had better books and better facilities, better schools. This goes on today. We still, it's morphed a little bit, but the way it's presented today is the zip code you're born in determines your future. That's true. And we didn't solve the problem of the inequality of schools, not the racial balancing of schools.

14:04 Just the inequality of the education, of the material, of the state of the buildings, the safety, etc. Yeah, when we go to the black school, we should see the same safety, the same fire extinguishers, the same jungle gym in the yard. Yeah, of course. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's why you had a bunch of people wanting to integrate because, oh, yeah, that school is so much better facilities-wise. Now, the truth is that important. I've never really thought about this. What was the reasoning behind school integration? It's kind of sinister now that I think about it. It's like, well, look, your school's always going to be shit. So we're going to send you over here where it's not shit.

14:50 Yeah. It's kind of sinister. That was the same thing with no child left behind. It's like, oh, you can read, you can read well, so you don't deserve to be in this crappy school. So let's move it over to school. It's not six to school. Let's move you to a less crappy one. Yeah, exactly. We see this all, and it never helps. It never helps. And as you're going to hear in Comeback 3. Oh, wait, wait, wait. But it does help. It helps ease the mind of those who are better off. Well, we did our part. We let them come over to our kids' school. Oh, yeah, the guilt. Yes, exactly.

15:30 King's plan isn't the forced busing of the past. Instead, he wants to make it easier for parents to send their kids to a school outside their neighborhood. This is called school choice. In this system, students of color can avoid bad neighborhood schools and apply for better ones across town. And white parents can choose to send their kids to more diverse schools than the ones nearby. The idea is that parents can voluntarily integrate schools. But it's not as easy as it sounds. Natalie Hopkinson, a journalist and parent of two, has tried to get her two kids into largely white schools for years. They switched schools five times in 10 years. Eventually, she gave up and sent them both to private school.

16:14 When it comes to DC, race rules everything. And it's really depressing to me. The choice system very clearly disadvantages black students because the schools that are high-performing are in white neighborhoods, period. Families that are able have the means to be able to buy into those neighborhoods have a guarantee they will have access to those schools. Right. Same, same problem. Just continues. Yeah, so it's not the schools, it's the communities that make up the schools. And we spoke about how the communities have been under attack through social,

16:56 social programs, no man in the house, welfare system, and these things. So then you see the schools reflect what the community, the status of the community is. And what person in their right mind would send their child to a lower-level school? Yeah, you don't want to, but it's, but if it's the one in your neighborhood, it's either that or the voucher program or whatever. Yeah. But I'm just, I'm speaking of the school choice idea. It's like, oh, yeah, the white children. Let me choose. Let me choose the shit school. Yeah, they need a little diversity. Who would do that?

17:39 It makes no sense. This is what we're dealing with. And this is what irks me is the so-called leaders. Where are they at to call this out? Like, these schools are not equal based off of what I said before, separate but equal. The facilities should be the same. The amount of chalk, the text, the year of the textbooks, all these things. That's what we should have been fighting for. But nope. And Mo, I must tell you, I've heard about school choice, school vouchers, et cetera, for years and years and years. And I'm totally honest, only, only right now have I really thought about it in the way you're thinking about it.

18:23 It's like, well, yeah, holy shit. That's again, it's just insulting. It's like, no, we, and, and it goes both ways because if that's being offered, you know, there should have been a, and maybe there was a call saying, well, hold on a second. We don't want that. We want these schools to be better. And I'm sure those calls were there, but ultimately, it's such an accepted thing. And yeah, and just for me, it just kind of hit me like, oh, that's, yeah, it's kind of cynical and insulting. And the teachers don't really say anything because what do they do? They're all close these schools. The teachers work in these environments. You see them on the news all the time.

19:02 The roof is falling down, rats are running around. And it's like the solution is to close the school down and bust the kids out of their neighborhood. Right. That's the solution, not fix the school. No. It's just very, I don't know. I can't get my head around it. But one thing the last clip, the last set of clips brought up was the Brown versus the Board of Education. This was 1954. And this was the Brown family. They wanted to go to a white school. Well, let me let the next clip, where are we at? Brown versus the Board of Education.

19:45 not so equal one. It's early in the morning, and young Linda Brown, a third grade elementary student in the town of Topeka, Kansas, is getting ready for school. Linda and her sister will soon leave the house to begin their journey, but they won't be going to the elementary school located just seven blocks away from their house. No, instead, they will walk six blocks to board a bus that will then take them to another school located a mile away from their house. Why? Because of the color of their skin. The year is 1951, and this country needs a change.

20:26 Now, part of that clip sounded really old, and part of it sounded modern. Where was that from? It's from the Georgia Bar Association. Oh, my God. They need some help. Yeah, so it's for kids. It's for kids. It's for kids. So they have an actual gavel named, I think, Slammer. So maybe we can. I'm going to teach you how segregation works. Okay. But there was something in that clip that I wanted to see if you caught about the proximity. Yeah, walking six blocks to the bus.

21:08 So the white school is seven blocks away. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They only have to walk six blocks. Well, they had to walk six blocks to the bus. They had to catch a bus. So that means this family lived in a mixed race community, which goes back to our white flight moving out of the family. Moving out. You see where I'm going? Yeah. Because you can't say, oh, we want all the black kids to go to all white schools. That doesn't make any sense, does it? No. That was very targeted, and this was for a certain group of people. And we're going to get into that.

21:53 Not equal to. It was happening everywhere. African-American students were being denied admission to all white schools, especially in the states where segregation was mandated. The case, Oliver Brown versus Board of Education of Topeka, Shawnee County, Kansas, was named after Reverend Oliver Brown from Topeka, Kansas. Oliver Brown was an assistant pastor, a welder in the shops of the Santa Fe Railroad, and father of nine-year-old Linda Brown. Brown was also one of 13 parents to be recruited by his childhood friend, Charles S.

22:31 Scott, a civil rights lawyer. Brown and others were asked to attempt to enroll their children in their closest all-white neighborhood school. Reverend Brown did this in the fall of 1951, taking his daughter by the hand and walking with her into Sumner Elementary School. Okay, you rang your bell on the lawyer's name. They would have you believe that Mr. Brown to say, you know what? I'm fed up. My black daughter is going to a white school. I'm calling my lawyers. That's not how it happened. These civil rights lawyers called up families. Hey,

23:13 I'm sure that. Yeah, he's like an ambulance chaser. Yeah, and they use their kids as a weapon. Political, yeah, as like Greta. Oh, brother. This is the modern. She, what is her name? I think Cynthia Brown, I believe. She's like the modern-day Greta. They use these kids, put them in this very volatile and hateful environment because it's forced. We've seen the pictures. We've seen the little black girl holding a notebook on all these civil rights clips. Yeah, you're hard. White people yelling on both sides, like, get out of here, cool, get out of here.

23:53 It's like, what? And you put your kid through that for what? A better education? Well, I mean, yeah. I wouldn't, yeah. It's hard to say how desperate are you? I don't know. That's, I see the, I see the joke in it all. Absolutely. But I'm also thinking, well, you know, if you really want to make a stand, sometimes you got to do something. But clearly, this lawyer just jumped out of the woodwork. And I would say the lawyer kind of set it all up that way to use the kid. So my question goes back again. Why are we not trying to get better facilities for all the black children at the school that you're not trying to let your child go to?

24:39 I wish I had an an answer. There is no answer because it doesn't make any sense. It's like, duh. Well, but you want to force these certain privilege, and these kids are privileged. They have a certain privilege because they were able to move out of the neighborhood, obviously, because they have to walk seven blocks and then catch a bus to go to the school in the community where it's at instead of walking six blocks to this school over here that's in their community. So I'm just saying, um, yeah. So we're going to continue on with uh where are we at?

25:18 I think we skipped, we skipped the clip. We skipped Linda Brown explaining segregation to her kids. You want to play that? I think it, I think it worked out best this way. It's funny how things work out. So Linda Brown Thompson, that's that is the that's the little girl, right? That's the little girl, and she's going to explain her experience. The neighborhood that we lived in was an integrated neighborhood. And so when we went outside to play, I had playmates that were all nationalities. I had playmates that were Hispanic, that were white, that were Native American, and black.

25:57 So we all played together, you know, every day. And when school would start, then we would have to go these separate directions. My playmates wanted to know, well, why can't you go to school with us? And I wanted to know why I couldn't go with them, you know. But being children, we didn't understand what was going on. It was devastating. I didn't like it a bit. And I just wondered, why, why is this happening? You know, why couldn't she go to the neighborhood school, you know? And when the kids asked her why she couldn't go, they came and asked me, Miss Brown, why what's all of this? Why can't Linda go to school with us? And I tried to explain to them, it was the color of her skin, that black people could not go to school with them over there yet.

26:41 They could go. The Mexicans could go. The Indians could go. And the whites all went together. But the blacks could not go. So I tried to explain that because those very same children who came over to play with her, they ate my food, they slept in my bed with my kids, and they played with them, and they didn't see any difference. But then when school started, that's where the difference came in. You know, and I don't want to equate my experience to this at all, of course. But when I was seven, we moved to the Netherlands and I was in an international school for a couple of years, only English spoken. I picked up a couple of words of Dutch, but this was 70, early 70s, and Americans were not very well liked.

27:26 There was a Vietnam War, and you know, so really what the Dutch kids would say to me is, You crazy American? That's about all I would hear all day. And my dad switched careers, and the very expensive international school for all three kids ended. And we literally were told one Sunday night we had a week off from school, hey, guess what you guys are doing tomorrow? Like, wow, what are we doing? You're going to Dutch school. What? And so I entered Dutch school in fifth grade, almost, you know, not speaking any Dutch at all. And I'll tell you, sucked massive balls because I was different for immutable differences, things I couldn't help, but I was completely different.

28:09 And it's traumatic. You know, so, but just throwing out another analogy, but I can feel some of this. And I understand, I'm not assistant to the fact that she wanted to go to school with the kids that she played with in her neighborhood. And another small fact that I don't want to gloss over is why is it that every other group, non-white group, gets to go to school? But it's like, no, no black kids. We'll take the Mexicans and the Indians, but you're pushing the bounds with the black kids. I mean, I wanted to point that out as well. So are we talking about segregation here? Because that doesn't really fall under segregation under what how you think it would be of whites only.

28:53 Right. That's that's some funny business going on there as well. That no black people allow very selective segregation. Yeah, selective segregation. Yeah, I just wanted to point that out for the people that's out there listening. But here we are. So the civil rights lawyers got them to got their 15 families and they take it to the Supreme Court. And we have Brown versus Ward, Supreme Court one. By the early 50s, segregation was frayed by the war and torn in spots where the court had acted.

29:33 The white primary was out. outlawed. Housing covenants outlawed. Some graduate and law schools were forced to admit blacks. But the court was aware that the big fight was still to come. The schools. K through 12. White children and black in the same classroom. I love the music. It really sets me up. So this is the last battleground of the K through 12 schools. Right. They've, like they said, the war had a big effect on it. World War II is what they're referring to as the war because that was one, I think we spoke about on the last show.

30:15 That was one of the things that black people were able to join the armed forces and fight side by side. Yep. You had the Tuskegee Airmen. You had, I forget the tank battalion that were famed for being very successful in World War II. So you had a lot of black men, soldiers coming back home, and they were kind of breaking down some of these social barriers. Barriers. Yeah. So as he said, segregation was tattered, but they had to keep forcing, forcing. So we're going to get into Supreme Court too. Led by Thurgood Marshall and other young lawyers like Robert Carter, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund was running or aiding cases all over the country.

31:03 The court picked five and consolidated them into one set of arguments, forever known as Brown versus Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas. As oral arguments approached, people camped outside the building to assure themselves a seat in the courtroom. NAACP lawyers Marshall and Carter were up against a formidable adversary, John W. Davis, a former presidential candidate, making the last of his 140 appearances at the Supreme Court. But his arguments had a familiar ring. Separate wasn't necessarily unequal. Blacks should be happy with the way things were. Didn't states have the right to educate their children as they saw fit?

31:48 Throwing it right back to states' rights. Interesting. This is where I disagree because they said, shouldn't blacks be happy with the way they had it? No, because the schools were inferior. The schools were inferior. Well, the second part of that, though, the way I heard it was, well, wait a minute. Shouldn't the states make sure that that's, I mean, is this when we had a Department of Education or not? Because I think that's where most of the problems came from, is when we had a federal, I should look it up. Go ahead. Continue, Moe. I'll just look that up is when that started. So just a little anecdote that schools were not equal at the time. And I'm not oblivious to that fact because my dad would tell me he was like, hey, we had to go in and take books together.

32:33 And they got like books that were five, six years old. Pages were torn out of them. So I'm aware that the schools were not equal in facilities and materials. But there was something that the white schools couldn't give the black students. And we're going to get to that later on in the show. And also, in the time that we talk about now, PTSD, post-traumatic stress, forcing kids into an environment that they don't want to be in or they're not welcomed in has to be very traumatic. Incredible trauma. It has to be a very traumatic, but nobody considered this. It was like we were trying to win a political battle.

33:17 And if the kids are sacrificed, so be it. Well, of course, this is very modern to abuse your children for a political point. By the way, Department of Education under Jimmy Carter, 1979. Okay, so this, it was a school. So it was the state's responsibility to ensure that the schools were equal, which they were not, which if I had civil, if I'm running this show, I'm having my civil rights lawyers fight that case of, no, it's not equal. Then we, I think, I think that would have just been better off, but that's just me.

33:56 Let's get into Supreme Court III. Warren starts off in a bland manner, and you can't tell for a while as he's delivering the opinion what the outcome is going to be. And then he comes to the key line and he says, and we unanimously hold that separate but equal has no place in the Constitution. And it was just electric in the courtroom when he said unanimous. We conclude that in the field of public education. the doctrine of separate but equal, has no place.

34:33 Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. Therefore, we unanimously hold that the plaintiffs are deprived of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the 14th Amendment. Plessy B. Ferguson in education is no more. And in practice, Plessy B. Ferguson itself is no more. The era of Jim Crow, constitutionally speaking, is over. All right. I'm just trying to understand this. Explain. I need another explanation of separate but equal. Okay, so it goes back to an 1892 case, Plessy versus Ferguson. So Homer Plessy, who is seven-eighths Caucasian,

35:18 going back to the one-drop rule here, took a seat in a white-only, white, whites-only car of a Louisiana train. He was arrested after he refused to move to the car reserve for blacks. And this was also a plant. He was a plant. Well, sure. By lawyers. So this goes even back to the early late 1800s of lawyers using plants to bring about cases. Right. But on appeal, the United States Supreme Court upheld the state-imposed racial segregation, relying on the separate but equal doctrine.

35:58 It says separate facilities for blacks and whites satisfy the 14th Amendment so long as they were equal. So that's Plessy versus Ferguson or the separate but equal trial. Okay, I got it now. Yes. So that's what I'm saying. If you want to have your lawyers go fight, be like, hey, we've tried this case, Plessy versus Ferguson. We're looking at this school. We're looking at that school. They're not equal. You're not upholding the law. Right. But no, what they wanted to do was say, we want the select few handful of black children to be forced into white schools while leaving the black schools dilapidated, dilapidated, and

36:42 deteriorating. So essentially, this case and its ruling came down to, well, it's okay to leave these schools in a state of disrepair. Yeah. It's not uncomfortable. As long as the black kids have equal access to the white schools. Yeah. You can let it all go to shit as long as they can walk over that way. Yeah. Amen. But see, this is economical. That's institutional racism, bro. Light bulb. Okay. But it's for poor people. It's for poor black people. If you're middle class and like we spoke about about the Obama family that could move out of the neighborhood.

37:28 Well, at a certain point, I think it does more from purely a black-white issue, racial to poor and less poor. The lines do blur at a certain point. Yeah, they do. That's true. So fast-forwarding to now, we have Mr. Tony Harris from a former anchor on CNN. Oh, yeah. And he speaks on school desegregation failed. Learned people suggesting to me that the Brown decision set education back

38:09 for black kids. Why are we fighting these battles? When our kids are getting fighting for resources for what is a substandard education, graduating, not reading at a grade level. And in a lot of cases, not all cases, but in many cases. Why are we fighting this when we know there was a period of time in our history when we were educating our kids? And it round comes into effect, and you lose so many of the black teachers who were teaching these kids. And don't forget, part of the buy-in for a lot of these districts, these white districts, was that these black teachers aren't going to teach our white kids.

38:49 I haven't seen Tony Harris on CNN in a long time. Yeah, he hasn't been there for a while. I think he hosts a show called America Hates. It looks into racial issues. I think you saw. He saw Al Jazeera. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. So he brings up some great points because what we had happen was this thing called social promotion. Have you ever heard of that, Adam? Is that like Twitter? It's kind of like it, but nobody knows what they're doing. No, that's. that's uh, where you just kind of push a kid along. Like, oh, yeah, uh, we're gonna go ahead and move into the third grade, even though he's reading on a second or first grade level.

39:34 Yeah, this is let's just keep him going. This is a very big problem, and I think that these days it happens a lot more, and it's done kind of with the grades. You know, schools don't want to get a bad over everything's with metrics, schools don't want a bad mark, so they either lower the uh the difficulty of the test or you know, fudge around with the numbers just to just push the kid through the system. One of those things that they did, and I could just highlight this right quick, was they went from the seven-point scale to the 10-point scale. So, just when I was in school, an A was 100 to 93. That was an A.

40:12 Now, an A is from 100 to 90, and then it goes for B is from 89 to 80, and so on and so forth. You know, and it's something I never really, I always okay, rewind. Growing up in the Netherlands in the Dutch school system, it's a zero to 10 scale, always has been that way. And the more I came to appreciate the zero to 10 scale, the more I looked at the American system with A, B, C, D, F, and would say, this is really fudging. You know, it's like a C. Well, you kind of pass with the C, but really, in the, in the, in the 10-point system, that would be a failing grade at more like a five.

41:00 And I always thought it was kind of pussy. You know, it's like, just, just give me the real number. Well, that kind of system helps with quote-unquote privilege as well. Yeah, it's a C. It's like, it's kind of, yeah, go ahead. We like little Johnny, so we'll give him a B minus instead of a C plus. Exactly. Yeah. It's a fudge factor. It's stupid. The reason why I make that point is this is kind of how one example of how black kids were harmed because where one teacher might give you a B plus, the other one might give you a C minus is very

41:42 subjective. The other thing is about social promotion, this is another, and this is going to be a lot a conversation that me and my dad had about schools because he is an educator. He would say, I don't care how big you were. If you were reading on the third grade level, you were in the third grade. You could be 12 years old at his quote-unquote black school. The teacher wasn't passing you. It wasn't happening. If you ran on a third grade level, you were in the third grade. You were on the third grade math level. They would keep failing you and failing you and failing you until you actually performed. Well, we all know how that worked out. We all know how what changed over the years.

42:25 So what happened was, and I don't know if it's because teachers were scared to be called racist if they failed a bunch of black kids. Well, the black family was being destroyed at the same time. The black community was being destroyed at the same time through urban renewal, but that's another show for another day. And now you have these kids going into an environment that, well, I'm going to let Minister J. Samuel Williams and his wife explain it. In the black community, we were prepared by setting certain goals, objectives for ourselves.

43:03 This was done primarily in the home, in the church, and in the school at that particular time because schools had a heavy reinforcement into our characters because they were black schools. Schools were not integrated at that time. You know, do the best that you can with your life. You are unique. You have a contribution to make. You have something to offer. You have a talent. You have skills. Many, many other things that you do have. Go on out there into the world and get them. And who was J. Samuel Williams? So Jay Samuel, he was just a minister. But I found this video on YouTube, him and his wife speaking on black schools before integration.

43:46 And just to get perspective for somebody that age. Now, we could, like I said, I'm 40 years old. I didn't go through the changing of a school. So I can have a perspective. But I wanted to get someone of that age that experienced as it was happening. So we can get some perspective of what it was like from a person that attended black schools prior to integration. So that's what Mr. Jay Samuel provides to this. Got it. To this story. Yeah, so he, like he said, it's something about

44:26 I've had white teachers and I have had black teachers. I've had good teachers. I had bad teachers, but it's something about a teacher that has a certain vested interest in you, in you. And you get that from black educators. Now, I can't speak as far as it doesn't happen between the phenomenon between white educators and white students, but they don't allow you to quit. They don't allow you to. This is, and I'm just speaking from the 80s when I went to school. I had one teacher, Mrs. Tapp, and she would just give it to you straight.

45:08 Like, you know what life is going to be like. You know how the world is. And they will talk to you in a certain way that I think maybe a white teacher may not feel comfortable with saying to you. Well, I've certainly, and I think that's when the life of a teacher is most beautiful when they connect with a student. And I've had that certainly with one history teacher and one geography teacher. But I never received any kind of talk from them about, hey, now, you know, you know how this is all going to wind up.

45:51 The way I think that you got that. So having that connection with the teacher is universal. The downside, I don't think anyone said, well, you're going to wind up on the streets dead. And it's funny. My dad was an educator and he chose to go to the worst school. Whatever this school, he's like, what's the worst school? Send me there. And he was kind of like, he was kind of like Joe Clark. I mean, knowing you, it doesn't surprise me your dad did that. But he would bring kids home and like my mom would like fix big pots of spaghetti and feed. We're feeding like three or four students and I mean, all off a teacher's salary. So

46:36 yeah, so I just think, but you don't get that now. I don't think because these days it's legally dangerous. You know, you'd be before you know, you're being accused of some wrongdoing. It's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot of stuff you can't do anymore as a teacher. I totally agree with you. But not to go down off on a tangent. Let's get back to Mr. Jay Williams, Samuel Williams 2. Relative to white America, we were taught that a lot of the values, a lot of the values that came into being were set by middle-class, let's say, white America.

47:20 In a way, we were to emulate them, you know, because at this point, we were at the very threshold of integration. Emulate them, take on many of these as much as possible middle-class values and virtues. That was a kind of inferior stigma placed on black people. But you had to look through it to see exactly where, you know, the real truth behind it. That is a stigma of inferiority. You know, you're not exactly where you should be, you know, but you need to do this.

47:58 You need to do thus and so. In order to be, in order to be accepted in the white world, into a white culture. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what you're going to get, of course. It's like, it's so, it's almost obvious that that was bound to unpack that way. Well, you've got to do it this way. Well, that's not where I'm coming from in life. Well, tough shit, kid. Yeah, I can see where that's a problem, too. The whole thing is a mess. But this goes back to the conversation that we had about your friend coming over and you just wanted to play. Right. This is what, this is what Jay Samuels Williams is explaining. He's like, no, we have to, you know, when you watch something and you want to emulate it, not for the simple fact that you think it's, you put it on a pedestal, but you're like, oh, well, I'm sure you had this when you went to Dutch school,

48:49 to Dutch school. You're like, what are the Dutch kids doing? What's considered normal for Dutch kids? Let me tell you, they did division completely differently. They didn't even have one number over another number with a vertical line. It was a slashed line. It was like, what the hell? It's like, okay, well, I guess I do it that way, which I had no background in it. Very. it's messed up. Hey, this is a gip. This whole school system is a big gyp. And that's why you felt like the kid when you came, he was carrying that on his back. Like, oh, we have to emulate what we think middle class is

49:33 because you're trying to convince people that you belong. You belong there, yes. And it was never a point of time where you could let your hair down and be you. Man, were there any child psychologists involved in these rules and regulations and this whole thinking process? Or was it all just we know what's best for the kids? I just wonder about that. It's progress at all costs. I mean, it's progress. We need progress. Yes. And we don't care about kids crying in the street, talking about the world is coming to an end in eight years. No, it's just material. It's great for the photographic material to look great on my resume. Right. Not only that, but who can fight against crying kids? Yeah.

50:17 So these are how these are how these kids were being used, just my opinion. And it wasn't even a successful or a fruitful. Well, thank you. I mean, it's one thing. And look, it's like, if you're going to abuse your kid for the greater good, I mean, that's a very big sacrifice to make. But if it's for a misguided cause that, well, here we are. Look at where we are today. Then it's kind of sad. Then it was just, I mean, maybe people really believe this was a way to do it. I'm not in their shoes. These aren't these, you know, there's some smart people. Yeah. Yeah. But who do dumb things? They were smart people, but it was

51:01 my question: was it a status thing to say, oh, my kids go to the white school? And I mean, this is a real phenomenon that I want to bring up. We don't discuss it long, but a lot of times, quote-unquote, black people would like to be the only black in a situation. This is real. Oh, I'm the only black to live in my neighborhood. I mean, that means that a good thing? Is that how it's viewed? Yeah, I made it. And this is real. I mean, this is a real sentiment. It's crooked and backwards in my book, but it's like, what? Do you have any friends or acquaintances who were in that situation would say it that way?

51:45 Not in that way. Okay. They don't say it like that, but it's implied. It's where you can say something. Yeah, and it's received that. So tell me you walk around saying, I'm doing a podcast with that white dude. Right. Oh, yeah, about it. I made it to the top of the podcasting game. That's right. I'm here. That's just me. You don't see any other white podcasters hanging around him, do you? Any black ones? Yeah, exactly. Right, right. But I would never do that because it's like, and just to be honest. Oh, of course not. Of course, I get it. No, no, I'm just saying is it's the opposite. Yeah. It's because it's like you, that's another show.

52:27 But I mean, yeah, it's just that you have this gauge, like, oh, am I keeping it real enough? Or, you know, it's a mental thing. And it's like some people, they don't care. They want to make it away from their own people. And that's the case of this whole episode here. That they didn't want equal schools. They didn't want better schools. It was. They wanted to be over there with them. Yes. Yes. And this is one of the things that we go back to the white flat with Michelle Obama. It was like, yeah, all the white people left. And then, but who moved in? Right. Black people. So you have a problem with black people that you ran from.

53:12 It's this weird thing that goes on. But taught values three. It brought about some self-pride too, because in school, we were taught, we had role models. Like I mentioned before, we had role models and our teachers, you know, instill self-pride. And we just knew that someday, you know, it wasn't going to be like this all the time, that someday we were going to be somebody. So we just, you just kept that in your mind. One day we're going to leave Prince Edward. We're not going to be in farm for the rest of our lives, you know. And for the most part, most of us did. So she just goes on to speak about what was instilled in them by the teachers that they had at their all-black school.

53:57 So I just think if it's your choice, you want to integrate to the school, that's fine. If you feel like, you know, you want that balance, that's fine. The problem I have with the whole whole situation is twofold: one, the schools got no better, and two, the kids were forced into an environment that really caused them uh stress, yeah, and living with a person that never really got over it being my father. He never really got over that. I mean, because it's just it's a culture shock, uh, as you spoke about in the Netherlands.

54:33 Are there any um success stories of uh very successful uh black Americans who went through this process forced forced or not, but went to uh a white school and then became XYZ from I said black Americans uh well, technically, technically please have to be you didn't say eight awesome, but I'm talking more about you know, back in the in the 60s, 70s here, the time we're talking about.

55:15 I think a lot of your uh politicians, I mean, this is a reality. Uh, Conda Lisa Rice comes to mind, right? Corey Booker, actually, just good example. Yeah, I mean, so, but it's because of their economic status, right, allowed them to live in the good neighborhood. That's this is the missing piece here, yeah, and that's why I spoke about proximity. It's because your family was economically uh fortunate or successful. I don't want to say fortunate, like it was a luck thing, but they worked hard to move into that neighborhood. And your kid kind of deserves to go to that school. But did you think 10 steps ahead? Like, what's the environment really going to take the toll it's going to take on my child? Sending them to an all-white school where they were,

56:00 it's a show, good show called Everybody Hates Chris, and it highlights highlights where he was academically gifted and he got to go to all-white school, and he was the only black kid. And like, you don't want to be the only anything anywhere, right? That's not a good thing to be. So, I mean, I don't think the parents really thought it out. It was like, oh, yeah, we're going to make history, or you know, my kid's going to, you know, be, you know, be on the front. Right. Well, but I can see parents if it's not thought through saying, you know, this is the opportunity. I want my kid to have this opportunity and really not thinking it through as a kid.

56:41 True, but it does have long-term effects on the child, and then it has long-term effects on your community. Because what ends up happening is maybe that student that's super intelligent, super charismatic, needs to be an example for his fellow black students. Right. You know, you start pulling all the gifted kids out of the schools. That's why I was totally against no child left behind and every right. Then you leave just every rest all you literally leave the rest behind. Right. It's like, oh, yeah, okay. You can read all the kids can read on school level.

57:21 We're going to move them out to another school. So what are you leaving behind? Who, you know, where's the tutoring coming from? Where's the peer level inspiration coming from? Nowhere. You have a bunch of kids that, and then it has to have deal with your self-esteem as well. Like, oh, they just left me. Yeah. You know, so. Well, again, again, all of this comes from a completely failed policy idea, which everybody bought into instead of the obvious, which is, hey, let's make the schools in our neighborhood better. All right. So let's continue on with taught values for. So we learned to work within the confines, to be creative as much as possible, to make, as black people say, a lot of times, make do with what you have.

58:11 And by this adaptability to this own inner culture, you know, this is what brought forth many other things, many of the qualities and the strengths. And it meant that we had to live beyond where we were. You know, we were not taught just to watch where you're walking right now. You know, just to look down right where you're in the 50s. But look ahead. There's something out of there. You know, go get it. So that's just him continuing on with what they were doing of the day. Yeah. And what they were given from the, I just want to highlight that because everybody wants to make it seem like it's a couple of things I want to tear down here.

58:55 One, everybody want to make it seem like all the black schools are just terrible. You know, I mean, no, there's some very prominent black high schools. schools, even to today. One of them being, I think it's still open in Durham, North Carolina, called Hillside High School. That was the town I grew up in. And I really wanted to go to that school, but my dad was like, nah, you're not going to Hillside. Why not? Why not? Because they had already at the year I was, let's see, so I was in high school from 94 to 99. This, it already had been gutted out. All the affluential

59:35 kids. It was like the school for the quote-unquote ghetto. No, I'm serious. I mean, because it was no more middle class in the school district. You see what I'm saying? So it was like my dad had sense enough. He was like, nah, that's not going to happen. Even though he would go teach at that school, he was like, but he didn't teach it at school because he was at the worst school in that. Like, there was like the behavioral school. But you wanted to be a hornet. Yes. A hillside hornet.

1:00:14 Right. Because I just love, I mean, to be honest with you, and this may sound funky, but I just like always felt comfortable around being around all black people. Sure. I even went to a historically black college for that reason. It was just a little inside baseball. As a black child, you only have a certain amount of years where you can be incubated with your own people. Right. And to you have to become integrated into society. So, you know, high school is when you're your young adult, college is your even, you become a real adult, uh, quote-unquote adult, but then

1:00:53 you have to go out to the workforce and you really can't pick and choose. Then, so that was like, oh man, I want to be around, you know, um, my own people. But I think my dad had foresight to understand it, see, like, uh, yeah, they're not going to accept you, right? So, what school did you wind up going to? I went to Riverside High School, which was about 50, 50, 40, 60, somewhere around there, which Durham is almost like 50-50 black, white in itself, which is a strange. I mean, it's a weird, unique, I'm gonna say unique, not weird, a unique place to grow up because every other person you see is black.

1:01:32 I mean, at the time I was there, I mean, now it's a huge Hispanic population, but uh, yeah, it was just I don't know, it's just you just feel I and you know what? I used to think it was weird. Oh, you don't be like that mo because you know, uh, that that's not the way to think you need to think integrated, you know, integration mindset. But now that I work in it with a at a corporation that has people from all over the world at lunch, everybody sits with their own kind, it's forced, it's unforced segregation. I mean, it's weird because you would look in the cafeteria, it's like, oh, yeah, you have this group over there, this group over there, you know, it's

1:02:12 so it's like you would actually be made feel black people would be made made to feel bad because you wanted to do that, but then you see everybody else doing it, so right now, I'll just wager though, at you're a high-tech executive, you uh, yeah, you've got uh a lot of H2B visa workers, you've got people who are a recent immigrant background, right? Uh, which is a little different, um, but in general, when it comes to food, uh, you know, and I went to an integrated uh college not very long because I just couldn't stand what the hell I was doing there.

1:02:55 Um, and my roommate was a black kid from Trenton, New Jersey, uh, and even around food, yeah, there's so much difference in you know, culturally in what you know, what we want to eat. Of course, we all agreed on Mickey D's, that was easy, you know, and I drive, but um, lunchtime, food time is always going to be interesting, and people will, of course, gravitate towards people who are maybe eating something they like. Um, I don't even think it's eating, it's that when you want to speak in your native tongue, that too, yeah, sure, sure, you know, uh, when you want to say a joke and not have to explain it, right?

1:03:37 Or in other words, it's a bunch of different things. Let me take your side. So, what you're saying is it's it's a natural human occurrence to want to sit with your own culture. Everybody wants to be around their own kind. Now, can you intermingle with other people? Yes, of course, and you appreciate the things that other cultures bring. of course. And that's why I don't really get so emotional about racism because I have a very unique, and this is just me. I have a very unique view on racism. Racism is a weird form of nepotism.

1:04:16 Huh. Because if you were able to hire somebody that looks like you, you're going to do it because they're kind of like extended family. That's how I look at it. Now, do people charge it with hate? Of course they do. I'm not, I'm not denying that what you're saying, right? So, okay, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. When you equate racism to nepotism, it's kind of the reverse. Instead of I'm better than my, because a textbook definition, my race is superior to that person's race. Therefore, I'm going to hire the superior person. It's a little different. And it's not about superiority. It's like, well, I feel comfortable with this person.

1:05:00 I think it's a merge of both what you said because there is some vanity. Oh, yeah, we're the best. I think everybody thinks that of their whatever group it is, age group, boomers versus millennials. Oh, yeah. Of course, of course. So your group, you're going to feel that you're the best. And then you say, well, since my group's the best, I want to surround myself around with that group, whether it be to be comfortable, whether it be I understand or whether, oh, that's a distant cousin. You know what I mean? Like, well, no, you're absolutely right. And in the corporate environment today, the biggest problem I'd say is, of course, not racism.

1:05:43 The biggest problem is ageism for the very reasons you outline there. Certainly in Silicon Valley, where there are 40-year-olds, 40-plus, who are incredibly skilled at their technological, you know, their technological prowess, whatever it is, you know, let's just call it, say, coding, engine, software engineer. But they're very, they don't get hired because people want to have younger people around. Yeah, because they think they know, younger people know. Old people don't know anything. Well, true. I mean, no, I'm just saying, that's how they look at it. Like, oh, you know, I bet you didn't know how to download the app or whatever.

1:06:23 I mean, so, I mean, that's. And the reason why I'll say this, the reason why I say this about, and I'm going to be short on nepotism. When you go into a situation, you have a mindset of, and I've done a lot of growing in the last, I guess, 10, 10 years, because just being exposed to different things. I'm not going to say the gender or the nationality of my last boss, but the people that that person hired first shared the same nationality as them, the next four people they hired. Yeah, sure. And then the next two shared

1:07:05 the same gender as them. Sure. So I'm looking at now, I'm like, hold on, is this what is this? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's nepotism. Yeah, it's an extended form of nepotism. And just for a little, a little comic relief, I like nepotism. All right. Your daughter, Ivanka, will be taking Caroline's place on The Apprentice. Correct. Nepotism. That's true. Why? I like nepotism. You know, if you can't take care of your kids, you know that better than I. Look at that. Your daughter was a big fan of. I like nepotism. I think, you know, a lot of people say, oh, nepotism. So usually these are people without children. But I like nepotism.

1:07:49 And just to be to be completely clear, the textbook definition of nepotism, because a lot of people think it's only relatives, textbook, the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. So it's not, nepotism is often confused with only family, but family friends. But is that a weird viewpoint? I mean, that's just how I look at it. I mean, I don't really take offense to it. No, it sounds really honest. But you know what it is? In today's social justice world, even saying that, and I should probably play this clip on no agenda just to make some people's heads explode.

1:08:32 Just saying it, oh, that's so wrong. So wrong, nepotism. I bet you nepotism will be just as bad, certainly coming from a guy like Trump. People tell, that's just as bad as racism. You're cutting other people's shirts. It's an ism. You're cutting people short. You're jipping other people, not giving a fair shot, fair chance. But people do it all the time, whether it's religion, color, gender, age. And well, I don't know. I grew up and I two things my mom always said to me, and both of them no longer apply.

1:09:15 So now you're 15 years younger than I am, but I grew up with sticks and stones will break my bones, names will never hurt me, and life is not fair. So that's what I grew up with. And I think it was important that I heard that. Because like, well, you know, some shit's unfair. And oh, yeah, life's unfair. Okay. And a lot of people are unfair. They talk a good game. Sure. But if you got to choose between, just say religion. If somebody's a Christian, not me personally, but somebody's a Christian and the guy hiring is a Christian and the other guy's not. Sure. It's like, I got to look out for my Christian brother, which makes it family.

1:09:59 You see where I'm going here? But may I digress on that? But I'm just explaining to you. This is a lot to explain about American history and the history of race has a lot is baked in it is nepotism in my viewpoint. Sure. To expound on that more, I have a clip from just to go. This is Muhammad Ali, I think in 1971, I want to say, on racial integration. People to move in the neighborhoods with clean their own neighborhoods. And another thing, when you say integration, it comes on the intermarriage too, right? All been together. And I'm sure no intelligent white person watching this show or no intelligent white man in his or her right white mind want black boys and black girls marrying their white sons and daughters and in return introducing their grandchildren as half brown kinky haired black people and i'm sure

1:10:53 well you wouldn't but a lot of them would i'm sure people know this is the point what i'm trying to say is this what i'm trying to say is this and you don't have it you say you don't but you don't have it you really ain't gonna have it you on the show and you gotta say that's that's not true why would you want to do that because i don't i don't think i'm any different from you you see yeah we yeah we much different i mean i think society's made us different we are different we're all together society has made us different no not society god made us different no no we're just human beings he made all of us we all listen bluebirds fly with bluebirds red birds want to be red birds listen listen tell me when i'm wrong pigeons want to be with pigeons tell me when i'm intelligent they don't have intelligence but yet they stay together we should have more intelligence than them right

1:11:39 nice one but you won't hear this from the corporate image of muhammad ali and that's no no no there's a lot i've heard on this show that i never heard from the corporate believe me and that's the point of why i'm doing this you didn't hear about the burning house of mlk you didn't hear about this corporate uh this stance that ali had and it's not like i said we all bring something to the table we're all you know created equally but just differently and the analogy i use for that is a pound of feathers and a pound of stones they're both a pound but but it's two different things so it's so it's not like one is superior inferior whatever that's not the point it's that like people red birds like to be with red

1:12:32 birds bluebirds like to be with bluebirds now can we all sing together and make single beautiful harmony of course but but you won't hear this because it's like it's a narrative it's a very unpopular thing to say mo and i'd just like to take a moment to recognize the conversation we're having here um i think it's incredibly valuable it is to me and i hope other people who are listening consider that because you know take it takes trust it takes work it's a shitload of work you're doing mo on producing this um and i think it's valuable and i want everyone to consider thinking about us mofundme.com

1:13:14 i appreciate that adam and and it is it's it is brave it is brave for the and i'm not saying it because we're the two having the conversation but it's unscripted uh you don't know what i'm gonna come with i don't know what your response is gonna be but we show up every week to have a conversation to kind of enlighten each other yes uh i've learned just as much as i've shared because i i only can see things through my eyes now this uh colorblind thing they want to do oh we're colorblind no we're not No, no, we're not. No, you know, and if you, and that's that's so such disrespectful because it's like, oh, yeah, you're not going to respect a person to see them for who they are.

1:14:00 You know, you know what I'm saying? You want them to fit inside of a box? I think eventually on this show, we're going to pinpoint the moment where this all went haywire, where it was, and maybe it's a long period of time, but the idea that it just, it's not okay to say, hey, we're a little different. Now, this show is set up to have different, you know, that's the whole concept. You know, two different, two American guys coming from different backgrounds shooting the shit, you know, talking about stuff. But somewhere it became very unpopular to say, you know, it's like Mo and I, we talk two hours a week and then he's with his buddies.

1:14:43 I'm with my buddies, you know, whatever. And we don't really have integrated lives that way. But it's the way maybe it should be. And this is a very enlightening thought. And like, and it's okay to be different. We don't have to be this culturalist society. Everybody wants to tuck their culture away and like, oh, no, no, I don't, I don't, I'm not that kind of that or this kind of that. You know, I'm, I'm, even being American, it's like, oh, I'm not that kind of American. You know, I'm this brand safe American. It's like, no, I'm me. You know, I liken it.

1:15:23 The military is actually a good example, but a buddy of mine, Taxi Eric, in Amsterdam. He's a cab driver, but he was on an oil rig for eight years. You know, that's like two weeks, three weeks on, two weeks off. And he would tell me stories because, you know, you fly, it was in the North Sea, so you get on a helicopter, very dangerous, you know, with 25 people and one helicopter. You land on this little pinhead in the middle of the angry sea. And it's all different backgrounds, particularly from Europe. There's guys from Croatia, there's Polish, there's a lot of British, and even differences with the Irish and the Scots, the Dutch, the Belgians.

1:16:05 And they all come together and they all perform this miraculous, dangerous work on a drilling platform. But he would say, you know, the Brits are over there. They're drinking their stuff and that. And, you know, sure, we hang out, but we work really well together and we're professionals. But yeah, it was, you know, those guys do that and they have that and they got their special meal and do their thing. And those guys like to stay up at night. And somehow that's just the way it works. But it also just worked because they all wanted to be there for a common goal. But it was the differences that gave him the interesting stories. Like, oh, those guys were crazy. Here's what they used to do. And to speak on separation,

1:16:43 Europe is mostly white people, quote-unquote, white people. I mean, just to use the corporate designation. But they all are separated into small little nations. Hell yeah. I'm very different. So it's like it's okay for them to say, oh, no, I'm French. I'm British. I'm this. I'm that. I'm Italian. You know. Well, interestingly, no. The European Union, the project known as the European Union, is going exactly the opposite. Shut up. We're all the same. We all have the same, we have the same passport. We all have the same money. We all kind of want to do the same things. And you're going to do it the way we tell you to because we're the European Union Starfleet Command.

1:17:24 So the globalists are definitely moving in the opposite direction, which is, I think, was what you're pointing out is where the friction comes from. And that's the point: was this a test run to say if we can make the total opposite merge, oh, the rest of the world, it'll be a piece of cake. I like that conspiracy theory. Because a lot of things that came out of America in the 60s, it was just pushed around the world. And this, I mean, well, 60s, 70s, and even the 80s were pushed around the world. This is one world, one everything, one, one, one, one. One world, one government. Imagine all the people. Right.

1:18:06 The Coca-Cola thing. Yeah, exactly. So. Well, that was different. That was, I'd like to teach the world to sing a perfect harmony. That was a very good example of how about colors of Benetton. Yep. So I have a clip from Mr. Malcolm X, and he's going to explain the difference between segregation and separation. Is it fair to say as a generality and as a succinct way to put it that you believe in segregation of the races? No, segregation is that which is, Mr. Mohammed says that segregation is that which is. is forced upon inferiors by superiors.

1:18:48 Separation is done voluntarily by two equals. You never refer to the Oriental community in which Orientals live exclusively as a segregated community because they live there voluntarily. Everything there is controlled by them. The economy, the politics, the civic organizations. But the Negro community is referred to as a segregated community because Negroes are forced to live in that community contrary to their will, and they don't control the businesses of their community. They don't control the politics of their community nor their social life. Right. So that's the difference between segregation and separation. Now, I think we all appreciate a little separation because when you go to worship houses all over America, most of them tend to people worship with people that look like them in one way, shape, or form.

1:19:38 But one thing he brought up was they controlling their community. So this is where this story hits home for me. All over America, there were small but prosperous black cities. You had Rosewood, you had Tulsa. I'm sure you heard of Newark. Yeah, I mean, Newark, Harlem, all these places that was booming. But the one in my city was called Hayta District. And Hayta District, well, I'll let this clip explain it.

1:20:18 I come of age when it was flush, you know, with black businesses along Fairville Street, along Pettigoo Street, black businesses, and commercial neighborhoods. But you had five tobacco companies here: Universal, Ligamas, WL Robinson, American Tobacco Company, Imperial. And so a lot of folks went right to the back of that. Good thing about it, the Backups, they were all unionized jobs. So they gave black people an opportunity and a tool to use against discrimination and whatever else happening.

1:21:02 Okay, I'm looking this up now. The Haytai District. Yep. So as a kid, they would, I was a young freedom rider. So I think it's like seventh grade. They put us on the bus and they rode us around like we were in the civil rights movement. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What is this? What is it? Like a Civil War reenactment only for civil rights movements? Yeah, pretty much. Oh, okay. Yeah, so they put us on the bus. I mean, it was for the kids that were pretty academically once a year. Was there a certain date when this happened? Oh, of course, you know, Black History Month. Come on now.

1:21:43 Oh, that's right. What is that these days? Is that March? I forget. It's February. It's the coldest. It's the shortest. That's the easiest way to remember. I never realized that. It's the coldest and the shortest. 28 days. That's what it was. Let me find out what douchebag proclaimed that first. I wonder who came up with that. That is fucked up, is what that is. That's very funny. Everybody else gets better months than us after us. It's like, hold on, we need to swap this month out. If y'all don't give other people months, I would much rather have June. But I mean, that's the idea. You need a refund. You need a refund on that. Let me see. February.

1:22:25 Come on. Who proclaimed this first? I want to know. Oh, it was first proposed by black educators and the black United students at Kent State University. Educators. Okay. The first celebration of black history. So cynical, Mo. The first Black History Month took place at Kent State one year later, January 2nd to February 28th. So it was two months. Okay, President Gerald Ford recognized Black History Month for the first time. Thanks, Jerome. Yeah, well, he was a bumbling fool. Yeah, we got to.

1:23:08 But this is easier to remember. It just easy to remember what my total is. I'll never forget that. Yes. I'm sure you won't. And by the way, everybody, in case you don't remember, all of the things we discuss are in the show notes at MoFacts.com. That's where you can find all these links. So, yep. So, but yeah, just to go, they would take us to Hayta, and they would tell us a story of how Hayta was you had dentists and doctors' offices and taxi cabs and everything. dry cleaners. It was his own self-sufficient part of town. And the crown jewel, one of the crown jewels, was Hillside High School of the Black High School.

1:23:53 So it was just this rich history. But what they did was, and this is going to be another show for another day, they destroyed it with urban renewal. They took the Durham Freeway and ran it right slap dab in the middle of Hayton. Wow. So you got a West Side, Eastside, or North and South, whichever it was. Yes. I think it was East and West. Yeah. So that's, but you saw this same, and I promise I'm going to do this show later on. But this wasn't just a one-off thing. It was, this happened all over urban renewal highways, ran right in the middle.

1:24:34 And it was similar to what they're doing. This goes way. This is a way throwback, guys. But I think it's like show two, three, what we talked about, gentrification, and how they were taking the railway in LA and destroying the blacks. It's the same play. I mean, I was going to say, these plays work so well that they don't have to switch up. And guess who was on board? All the black politicians, quote-unquote, the bullet. They were on, oh, yeah, bring them on. Bring the money, bring the money in. They destroyed the community. And this is why you had a need to have integrated schools because you destroyed the community. This is depressing. I know.

1:25:19 Let's remember to do a show on urban renewal. That might be a whole show right there. That's pretty interesting. Yeah, make a market, and I'll get back to it. But the reason why I bring this up, bring it home to Durham is I was sitting on the couch one day, and this movie trailer comes on for the best of enemies. And at water last night, an electrical fire destroyed East End Elementary School. Mama, where are we going to go to school now? I'm going to find you somewhere. Your nice to go.

1:26:01 Not going to have black kids going to temp school. Oh, come on. They're going to put them somewhere. Missing Penny. I'm the hottest friend. We're going to beat school segregation once and for all. Listen to me now. I'm late. Who's next? They say you represent a great many people in this town. I'm holding the committee meeting. The council will vote to either adopt or reject school integration. I need two co-chairs. You and Atwater. And Atwater. I'm the president of the clam. He's about to hand you the keys to school integration. And you're going to lock this door.

1:26:47 Was you looking at that crazy white man? Holy crap. This is the story about Durham. Durham, yeah. Yeah. Oh, my city's rich with history. Wow. It's super rich with history. Like, like I said, but I saw, I was like, hold on, what? They're making a movie out of that. Of course, they made it a, you know, one of those bullet box office bonanza. You know how it goes. It's like, oh, the clutch. They got the head of the clan. And of course, it's like a buddy cop. It's like a buddy cop movie. Like, what is this? Another 48 hours? What? What? So we got a white dude with a black woman, and it's a buddy movie now.

1:27:33 Change. Yes. Oh, this. I love the subtitle. Change is worth fighting for. So are they going to save it now in the movie? Yeah. They save it. But as I always do, I don't go with the narrative. I go get the true story behind Best of Enemies. He was upset, and I was upset. And he was cussing and calling all black folks. And I was calling all white folks. And I couldn't stand white folks anyway. The children talked to us and got us together saying that they wanted to go to school with each other. And then we looked at each other like fools. We've been arguing about the wrong thing. She was bold and clearly never missed words.

1:28:15 Activist and Atwater herself. Recalling the moment when she and CP Ellis took a good look at themselves and turned things around for the greater good. And much to their and everyone else's surprise, formed a friendship. This head does the talking for me. Starring Taraji P. Hudson as Atwater. Have you read it? Of course. course I read it. And Sam Rockwell as Ellis. The film explores how their relationship evolved through being forced to work together. CP Ellis, he acted like he was the meanest man in the world. And I wanted to cut his head off. She can upset the world with her mouth if she wants to.

1:28:55 So they took these two. They took these two people that hated each other and they're calling each other all kinds of whatever, whatnots. Hey, let's put them two, their kids together in the school and see how that works out. What could go wrong? Exactly. So, best of enemies, too. When people say, white people say, there's, I don't have a racist bone in my body. It's like, do they get deboned or something? Because otherwise, you grew up in a white supremacist society. It's just a fact that you're going to have biases and prejudices like I do. And the thing is to work on that, to acknowledge it, and then, like CP, to overcome that.

1:29:38 In turn, it widened OSHA's scope. You know, we have this myth of a classless society and democracy for all, no racism. And then there's the uncomfortable truth of our problematic history. So it was the intersection of race, class, and gender that allowed this story to come together and to explore those issues. And sadly, those issues are just as relevant today and still need to be worked on. All right. So now, how do we know how this movie ends? This 2019 version of history? Oh, you know, her and him are buddies.

1:30:19 They get along and everything's good. They live happy. Yeah, happily ever after. You know how it goes. So instead of showing that it's hard and that, yes, people have biases on all sides and they like being with their own kind, but they can work together. Instead of that, they're going to say that this is how it works or it all works fine. Shut up. Is that what this movie is doing? Of course it all works fine because of the intersectionality. I heard it. I heard it. I heard it. He said it right there. The intersection, yes, of race. Was it race, gender, gender, and something else? I don't know. Does it matter? Sexuality. Yeah. Yeah. Class or something like that.

1:31:04 Yeah. Who funds these things? By the way, Sam Rockwell is a pretty big name for this movie. Yeah. I mean, it was a nice size movie. Is it streaming? I got to watch it now. I'm sure it's streaming. I'm sure it's probably on Net. Yeah, it's the 2018. So it's probably on Netflix or one of those. No, no, this was 2019, April 5, 2019. Okay. I had 18 in mind. Okay. All right. Yeah. So, yeah, here we are. I was like, what? I'm like, come on. I mean, the leader of the clan, the leader. The leader. It was in Durham. No, that's not what I'm saying.

1:31:47 Like, bro, if you could be easily shaking that, I'm questioning your leadership abilities. I mean, that's all I'm saying. The leader he is. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's easy. I doubt he was the leader. We'll just change him. Right. So there's a silver lining in all of this. Oh, thank goodness. They should talk. So we can take a deep breath. And we have school is integrated. And not only schools, but now the KKK is integrated. The KKK is rebranding itself. And in an effort to do so, they are being more inclusive. They are allowing Hispanics, blacks, Jews, and gays to join in on the fun.

1:32:31 Now, they say that they have completely changed what their mission is. They've even renamed themselves the Rocky Mountain Knights, which is interesting. And here is what they are arguing. The KKK is for a strong America. White supremacy is the old Klan. This is the new Klan. But if you want to join this new version of the KKK, all those wanting to join the ultra-right wing society will have to wear the white robes, masks, and the hats that they wear. This is a great clip. Where did you get this? I missed this memo. I mean, I was at the meeting, but I didn't get the memo.

1:33:13 I hope you wouldn't have that meeting. Of course not. But that's crazy. I didn't know about this. No one informed me. Yeah, this is how far integration has gone. You could join the Klan. Which firm did this rebranding? Hill and Knowlton? I mean, this is fantastic. But what you want to disband the Klan? I mean, like, oh, yes, we're going to keep the hoods and the hats and the sheets. But you're more than welcome to wear them. Which is. This is great. This is a news flash. I don't understand. Why is this not top of the news? How did I miss this? When did this? Where did this come from? These clips.

1:33:56 Young Turks. Young Turks. Oh, man. That's fantastic. Well, problem solves. But there's more. Oh, of course there is. But then this quote, did you have the quote from Jimmy Simmons? Yes. Jimmy Simmons, a president of the Montana NAACP chapter, said that while he questioned the use of the letters KKK, if the peace summit took place, he would quote, take a strong look at joining the Rocky Mountain Knights. This is why the NAACP is in the risk in some places of becoming an irrelevant organization and not enough young people in the NAACP. Like, who? How did you get to be the president of the Montana chapter of the NAACP? And this guy's rebranding it and as a big giant right-wing group, and you'll have to carry it.

1:34:42 What kind of leader are you? No, no, that's nuts. That's nuts, Jimmy Simmons. Don't join. You heard that right. And my mouth is agasp. The NAACP. Wow. The president is willing to join the KKK, the rebranded KKK. You let that soak in from the original clip of who put Brown versus Board of Education up to this. And I'll top that with Mr. Joel Spengarn, who is the spy leader of the NAACP. You let all that sink in.

1:35:26 I put there for a reason. Yes, well, the NAACP has been mentioned throughout the past hour and a half in all of these clips. And now you're going to go gut punch me at the end here and tell me that the NAACP is willing to join the KKK and take us right into that burning house. Wow. All right. Mo, what a journey. It's like a roller coaster that ended in a brick wall. I'm sorry about that, but let's just slam our faces. NAACP joined the KKK. Wouldn't it make more sense for the KKK to join the NAACP? I mean,

1:36:08 this is for optics. You think? Oh, man. I thought I was the crazy one. I thought I was the crazy. I don't know. So we need to follow up on this next week. I need to know what happened. And I need a picture of the guy with his hood on, with his sheets. That's really incredible. Very interesting. This is integration for you. It's like, oh, yeah, we can change our ways. Come on, join the group. So the next time you hear something coming up in the news about school vouchers, school choice, et cetera, think of this episode and think about the historical background of this forced integration.

1:36:54 And you got to look at the lawyers. What lawyers are involved? And what children are they using for this or abusing for this? Yes, because child abuse is quite common to push political motors. Is it ever? Well, it solidifies my thinking that we're on the right track with the show, Mo. This is one of the few places you can get this kind of honest dialogue, honest look at historical American history. And I appreciate you very much for doing all the work and putting it together. Once again, you've made my week. I'm glad I could do that, sir. And as I always say, pay attention to everything and the truth will reveal itself.

1:37:39 And we'll return next week here on Mo Facts with Adam Curry. Make sure you tune in, subscribe, and support us at mofundme.com. And I heard the voice rate. We were talking fucking to each other.

1:38:21 And not a bother to change the baby. buy it. Don't call me Nigga. Don't call me Waffley. Don't call me Neega. Don't call me Wadgy. I'm not that.

1:39:23 I want the one.