Wyla's Archives 1994 Mt Carmel Memorial [NQW3i HInkw]

00:00 I love Mike Hanson Arcaus. There's a lot of anger on the other side. And so we all need to remember where we're coming from and the name that we pray in, and The Prince Of Peace. A wise man said to me the other day Mr. J Jenkins I want to give him credit for this when i was telling him I want punishment! I want everybody punished! He said well Pam remember how Abraham Lincoln Remember what he said after at the Gettysburg Address

00:48 with malice toward none and charity toward all. We gotta come together people, we have to come together there's a lot of anger on the other side and I encourage you to reach down deep inside your soul and get in touch with this source that many of you invoke let us be an example And i thank you reverend Opwell for such devotion I thank you for such commitment And I just, I love you all. And we... Love is the most powerful weapon in the world and right.. We need to start to heal this nation and a great way of doing that is to reach the American people and I want to bring forward now Mr Jack Zimmerman as you know this is really not easy for Mr Zimmerman He's been when he was here before he came into a home and he met with his clients

01:45 And this is difficult for him. He has not been able to put this away, he's not been able to put it aside. He could just turn away from it and make a... you know spend his time doing other things. He could be off making money right now but he is here, he has something to say and I appreciate him being here. He was very eloquent last night before the TV cameras and so Mr Zimmerman will you come forward please while I talk? I'm going to speak with him now Did you want to give an introduction also? Okay. And Ron Engelman, I don't think Ron Engelman needs any introduction... This is our MC folks! Rod Engleman and most of you know him for those who don't he was a radio talk show host in Dallas He raised a little ire because he tried to help the situation here and he's a hero to many of us most of us all of us so here there ya go Thank You

02:40 I think the question really is, thank you very much. Why? Look out here and you say why? Why did this happen? Why did over 80 people lose their lives here at the hands of the government? Was it some sinister plot that the Branch Davidians had that they were going to foist upon us, the American public or was it very simple? Was it very simply the fact that the ATF felt that they needed some film footage of coming out here and getting these Branch Davidians down on their face, and going through because they were about to go before the Senate Budget Committee. And they needed some good film footage and TV coverage? Did Robert Rodriguez, the undercover agent that was here, who was living right over there... did he tell the truth?! Did he go to the ATF and told his superiors that the Branch Davidian's were peaceful? The Branch Davidians were non-violent

03:45 And then the ATF decided to take advantage of that and this is the outcome of it. You know, in the affidavit there was a letter in the affidavit that said that the Branch Davidians planned on doing something in Waco that would make the Los Angeles riots small in comparison The problem is that this thing was dated three weeks before the riots took place in Los Angeles But that's not what happened. What happened was the government did something that made the Los Angeles riots small in comparison They showed, as you can see right here they showed the entire world of the brutality The US and United States government was capable of Last night I was watching the news and i saw something That I never thought I'd seen before on the news It was a survey

04:40 And the survey said simply 56% of the citizens of the United States of America do not trust The United States government. That's a pretty heavy thing to say 33 percent Do trust them and the other 12 are kind of ambivalent or have mixed emotions But the point is what we're looking at here today is ugly, ugly truth of how brutal our own government can be to our own people. And this is something we have to remember forever, and Reverend Otwell was absolutely right. We all have blood on our hands because of it. Because we stood there at Satellite City two miles away and didn't come in, didn't force ourselves in. We were over there on T-shirt Hill standing there looking at binoculars just barely seeing the outline of the roof of Mount Carmel and not making our stand making the government know how we feel

05:37 The government lied and lied and lied, and the Branch Davidians saw those lies and heard those lies right here in Mount Carmel. I talked to Sue Johnson yesterday. Sue Johnson is the sister of Steve Schneider who was a right-hand man for David Koresh Steve Schneider and David Koresh got the government to give them some batteries for a flashlight or something. They jury-rigged the batteries and got a cellular phone that they had to work, and he called his sister. They wanted my phone number. They wanted to call me. They wanted to talk to me at one o'clock in the morning I got a call from Dick DeGaran saying to expect a call from David Koresh didn't know what he wanted to talk about but would appreciate it if i called him back

06:21 David Koresh's phone call never did come. Their batteries wore down before he could make the phone call to me Yesterday, Sue Johnson told me what it was that David Koresh and Steve Schneider wanted to talk to me about They wanted me to do something whatever I could over the radio because they were afraid They were afraid that the government was going to kill them And that's exactly what Steve Schneider told his sister the night that he called her at midnight Sue, I'm afraid. I'm afraid that the government doesn't want us to come out of this alive." He was absolutely right and our hands are not clean because it was us it was our responsibility The government's supposed to be working for us obviously they're not they're working on us I'd like now to introduce a gentleman that did everything he could he and another attorney Dick DeGaran

07:17 Jack Zimmerman and Dick DeGaran went into Mount Carmel, they entered this building. And they entered it prior to being burned and they talked with Steve Schneider, they talked with David Koresh, they talked with a number of the other Branch Dominions... They saw the bullet holes in this building! They know the bullet holes that entered from the roof not exited from the roof. They know- They saw the bullet holes that entered through the building from the outside indiscriminately firing through the walls Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce an attorney that tried his best to help bring this to a peaceful conclusion. One that obviously the government didn't want it to come to. Please welcome Jack Zimmerman. Let me begin by telling you that I take a backseat to no one in this ground here about standing up for what's right. 30 years as an officer of Marines

08:25 While it may not have been successful, Mr. Otwell I did stand sir and i did go in but enough about me. I think that the remembrance that we have today should be for the victims. I want to talk to you a little bit about those people they are the most important ones he can rail at the government but I think particularly with our members of the media here the message that has not been transmitted to the people of the United States, at least from my travels around speaking on this subject from coast-to-coast is that people really don't know what kind of persons the Branch Davidians were. You'd think that they had horns coming out their heads...that they were some kind abnormal persons Let me tell you about two people from Wisconsin Steve and Judy Schneider They were in my opinion from having spent

09:28 two full days intensively talking to Steve and several hours speaking to Judy, and then spending many many hours including a personal trip into the home of their family in Wisconsin. Let me tell you about Steve and Judy Schneider and their daughter 2-year old daughter Mina First of all they were educated people. Steve was a college graduate They were working people. Judy had worked had been out in the workforce. These were not people who just sat around and were lazy and didn't contribute to society, they came from good family you talk to Sue Johnson as it was just mentioned enter husband Tom and you talk to Wayne and Karen Peterson Judy's brother and sister-in-law on your talk to the parents and UC by being in my house like I I was their homes in Wisconsin and you see what kind of people they work

10:29 They were decent people, they were peaceful people and they were religious people. Now I first met Steve Schneider on April the 1st went inside and was astonished at what i saw to set the scene for those who don't remember electricity had been off for almost three weeks there was no electricity there was no running water there was no plumbing and they've been isolated and they were under siege some people say that Branch Davidians were keeping hostages just the opposite. The hostages were being kept by the government and instead of seeing someone who was fretting, and worried, and emotionally unstable instead I saw Steve Schneider who was calm he was confident and what was most surprising to me because in my Marine Corps background with how well groomed he was how clean he wasn't how we managed to do that under those circumstances it just struck me as a first impression

11:37 He had on a clean long-sleeved shirt that looked like it had just come from the laundry. He had on a pair of blue jeans and tennis shoes, just like you and I would wear. It was well groomed he had a haircut any ways articulate persuasive and calm Judy with the same way we spoke for some period time she had a wound to their hands even shot in one of her fingers it become infected You recall there was some talk about her being released to see a doctor or send the doctor in and the government only would permit that if she agreed not to go back in. She chose to stay inside instead of taking that agreement After we had been speaking for an hour-and-a-half or so, I guess I made some kind of involuntary movement backwards And it embarrassed her and she realized

12:31 what was causing my reaction was the fact that she had, in order to combat the infection in her wound had been eating raw garlic and that there was a characteristic smell that she had become used to because...and others because she had done that for so long but she realized perhaps I didn't know where it was coming from. Judy was a mother She loved her child and one of things we talked about when she came out when she came out, not if she came out. When she came out who would take care of Mina until she was either released on bond or went to trial and was acquitted? And she told me that she wanted her mother to do that these were the kind of things we talked about

13:19 not some kinda wild-eyed crazy thing that a lunatic would talk about but the kind of things that decent human being, a mother would be concerned about. What is going to happen to my baby when I come out and go into custody at least temporarily? When we talked to Steve about what should be done obviously the correct legal advice was let's get outta here lets take this fight to the courthouse lets win in the court house an he agreed He agreed. His reaction from personal conversations to the loss of life was one of distress he repeatedly stressed how the Branch Davidians were just as upset at the loss of life with ATF agents they were on their own which convinced me that their religious beliefs were genuinely felt this although I personally did not subscribe to their religious beliefs it convinced me and it convinced Dick DeGaran

14:23 that whatever their beliefs they were genuinely held and that they were religious people. They weren't vindictive people, they certainly were not a threat to Waco or anybody else and that's the key I think that there is not...that message has not been delivered to the American public That the Branch Davidians were not a threat to anybody They were out here, they were doing what they thought was called for by their religion And they were not a threat to anybody they were not threats that deserved capital punishment. Steve reminded me when I asked him, those of you who did not visit inside and haven't had a chance to talk to those that lived inside need to be aware how spartan the conditions were and that the home was in process still being built

15:16 And when asked about his religious beliefs and what caused him to do this, he reminded me that he left a very comfortable life in Hawaii to come be here and live at Mount Carmel Center. Not the compound which was the spin put on it by the government if you remember that the Steve became the first lieutenant and it became the compound and all these other military terms to justify the appearance of all these people in military uniforms out here but that was Mount Carmel Center, that was their home. And he reminded me that although his belief were different than mine He genuinely believed in that and when I passed on the messages from his family

16:00 personally passed on the messages from his sisters and his parents, and Judy's brother and her parents. The response was tell them that we appreciate their love were loyal to them But I am convinced that what I'm doing is right and that's what God wants me to do. And if they want to support me, then they need to support... ...what we're doing in pursuit of our religious belief." To me there was no question that whatever his belief he genuinely held that He wanted to come out Judy wanted to come out They were going to come out

16:41 And on April the 4th, when Dick and I went in for the second 8-hour period at four o'clock in the afternoon after we had explained all of the legal options to them. Then they had left the room and uh...had a discussion with people that they wanted to talk too They came back and Steve said We accept your advice as being correct. We understand that it would be our best interest To come out right now walk out with you However, we make decisions on two levels in here. There's the secular law and the spiritual law We agree with you that the secular law should say come out today however our Spiritual Law says we must wait for a sign It was on the eve of Passover And then you know what the history from that The next time that we talked to them it was on December the excuse me Was on April the 14th when Steve read me a letter that had been written by David Koresh

17:41 over the telephone, he read the letter in which the Branch Davidians through David Koresh said that they were coming out and they were wanting to face man and answer the charges. But it couldn't happen until his religious project that he had been waiting to complete was over. He told us it would take about 12 more days. We went back told the FBI after the attorney-client privilege was specifically waived so that we could do that. We gave the FBI a copy, we read to the press verbatim what that letter stated and I told them that the excitement that I heard in Steve's voice with his Wisconsin accent still I can hear it as if it were yesterday...that we believed they were going to be coming out and could the FBI wait another 12 days?

18:41 The answer, of course was we have all the time that's necessary to resolve this peacefully. And I've got to tell you that after several decades both prosecuting defending and serving as a criminal trial judge it was my opinion shared by Dick DeGaran that those FBI agents on the ground who were in charge who gave us that promise were sincere its history and extraordinarily unfortunate that their opinions were overridden by the bureaucrats in Washington. And we know that at six o'clock in the morning, two years ago to the day everybody in the Mount Carmel Center was healthy given the circumstances they were alive and a few short hours later at 1 p.m., those who had not been fortunate enough escape the fire had all perished What's the lesson to be learned? This cannot be repeated

19:47 Now you can shake your arms and you can scream and yell, we have demonstrations but I've got to tell ya that the only thing that the FBI or ATF is going to respect so this is not repeated is some court decision that binds their conduct. Or some type of congressional mandate in the form of funding or lack of funding. That is, in reality the only way that we're going to keep this from happening again so my suggestion what I'm calling for as a representative Steve and Judy Schneider is a congressional oversight investigation by the appropriate committees that control the Department of Justice

20:35 so that a thorough investigation is done, so that guidelines can be established the next time someone in Washington doesn't like the cut of someone's clothes, color their skin or what religious philosophy they happen to believe. And so that federal law enforcement might is not used and the way it was used two years ago on this site That law enforcement effort was a failure by anybody's standards and the FBI was thoroughly embarrassed by it. Professional law enforcement officers were embarrassed across the country by what happened, it was a failure! The rain is starting up again we have other speakers let me conclude by saying this 50 years ago this country helped to liberate the Nazi concentration camps and discovered the Holocaust fifty years ago

21:27 We must, as a country always remember that and never forget it just because of the passage of time. By the same token we as a country must remember what happened here on this ground two years ago and never again." Thank you Mr Zimmerman I appreciate that some insight that only he and Dick DeGara know and our men... Alright this is gonna be cute

22:07 We can't waste a lot of time because there are an awful lot of people here that have a lot of things to say. All said and done, after the fire the people that were incarcerated placed in jail, the people who were in hospital with burns bad burns including Misty Ferguson little 16 year old girl suffered greatly because this tragedy then came the trial at that trial the judge decided who would be on the jury. The jury forewoman of that trial was Sarah Bain. Sarah Bain was here one year ago at the Day of Information and learned, first, that she hadn't heard much about the Branch Davidians She then became eventually the jury forewoman of the jury of the Branch Davidians down in San Antonio

22:56 Sarah is here and I'd like to introduce Sarah Bain to you, and she'll tell you a little bit about what her feelings are now that the trial is over. Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Bain. Ladies and gentlemen, I am among one of the most frustrated individuals that probably is walking these grounds today. Frustrated first of all because we're even here. Why did all this have to happen? And why do we even have to be here?

23:32 In my opinion, there ought to be 120 or 150 Branch Davidians carrying on their daily routine... worshipping whatever their life entailed still ought to be happening out here. From the jury standpoint I have found out so much information that we were not presented during trial that makes me not pleased at all with what has happened to me personally this sign over here is one of the very things that I think must be answered for. When we finally were in our deliberation stages, several of us were voicing frustration over the very fact there were 11 defendants on trial One of the things that we found some peace though it was now seemed to be false peace was in saying well this is just a first step there will be more to come

24:33 The ATF hierarchy surely will be called to answer for what actually took place. If it had not been for those in control who ordered the raid, we wouldn't be here today. There would be no reason to be here. It would be status quo. There were so many things that should not have happened. I've been... if we sat for seven weeks seeing hearing witnesses seeing evidence, having things. We were bombarded with information and during that time we would look out across the courtroom and we saw people supposedly these were the Branch Davidians who had committed these heinous crimes And yet at the same time we didn't know these people. We saw one woman ten men and that's exactly really what they were to us They were not individuals

25:38 It was not until I had the unfortunate opportunity of going back to the courthouse in June, when it was time for the sentencing phase that I had an opportunity finally to meet some of the attorneys. To meet some of the survivors, some of these still existing Branch Davidians that I came to realize more about who the Branch Davidian are what they represent And there is nothing, absolutely nothing that I have learned about the Branch Davidians that could ever lead me to believe that they were involved in any kind of conspiracy against our government. Those which makes me even more pleased we came out with a verdict that said they were not guilty of a conspiracy to murder anyone These individuals as Mr Zimmerman was saying although he can speak from much closer and much more personal angle than i could ever speak

26:34 he has to be right on target. All I see are loving, caring religious folks who ask for nothing more than to be allowed to carry on with their lives When all of this first hit the news media you're probably very much in remembrance of the fact that some other things that were being said were that gee it's a good thing we stopped this now because when we got in there we found these plans they had plans of some buildings in Waco and surely they had plans to bomb buildings or to set them on fire, or do horrible things in the city of Waco. Impossible to believe! When I was going to school over these hills for Baylor University...I had no idea that there was even a group called the Branch Davidians

27:28 How such a group could have lived in Waco and in this area for 35 years peacefully, and then all of the sudden turned into this renegade group makes no sense. Anyone with any logic could say that they had no reason to have this thrust upon them I am here hoping that even though I wish we didn't have to be here something must be done to keep this before the American public to see that it doesn't happen again, to see that no more children die and that no more crepe myrtles have to be planted row on row. Thank you. Thank You Sarah All of this took place there was an author a writer gentleman that saw what was happening didn't like what he saw and decided do some investigating and did a lot of investigative reporting

28:41 on what happened here, found out a lot of inside information about the government's thoughts and what the government had done and the reason they had done it. That gentleman wrote a number of articles all of which I've read in The Soldier of Fortune magazine He is with us today and i'd like to introduce him right now His name is James Pate Mr. Pate? Thanks Ron You look alot drier than I do Well im trying to stay dry its kinda hard I gave Pam Hawkins some names and phone numbers, uh...and she's circulating those names and phone numbers. And for the sake of brevity, I'm not going to go through those names and phone numbers but they are the names and phone numbers of several people in Congress that if you don't call them, it will change here. Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich is one I would recommend These are people we should call about congressional hearings on Waco

29:56 Senate Judiciary Chairman Orrin Hatch, both of you are United States Senators from Texas. But the really key people are House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime Chairman Bill McCollum and Congressman Bill Zelliff who is the chairman of the Oversight Subcommittee in the House Criminal Justice. And one person you really ought to call is the Undersecretary of Treasury for Law Enforcement, Ron Noble. His phone number is 202-622-0240 I'm going to give you some important information and I want you to call these people in Congress and raise hell with them

30:40 I'm going to tell you why Phil Winoski and Chuck Sarabin, the two raid commanders who led this disaster out here that started it. Uh...I'm gonna tell you why they got their jobs back We've been puzzled by that mysterious development And i'm gonna promise you something If you don't call these people in Congress and make your voices heard now This week next week and a week after that we will never get any answers and there will never be accountability There will only be more WACOs Most of what people remember about Waco when I talk to them and travel around the country is a lot of people remember the bad jokes. And they tell those over and over It is no longer important issue most people believe, and I appreciate you guys coming out particularly in this bad weather To make it an important issue But people say... People tell me put it behind you Get over it We're not joking today because what happened out here was nothing less than evil

31:44 The unanswered questions lingering over the ashes behind me here are blacker and uglier than the giant pile of smoke two years ago. The 51-day Battle of Mount Carmel began with an ATF publicity stunt as reckless and vainglorious as Custer's charge at the Little Bighorn It ended with more criminally negligent conduct, a deadly armored poison gas assault approved by Janet Reno and flawlessly executed. Yep that's what the Justice Department investigation of itself said. Flawlessly executed by the FBI I thought about that flawless they made no mistakes maybe everything did go just according to plan now there is concept that begs more answers

32:25 We have no answers right now because Congress and the Clinton administration have refused to allow any meaningful forum to independently address facts which suggest that ATF launched a deliberate attack on a home and church it knew was occupied by scores of women and children, that the ATF did so with helleborn gunfire and direct involvement of US Army Special Forces soldiers. That the FBI hostage rescue team launched a second attack that was approximate cause of a deadly fire." We have no answers, says Henry Ruth who was ironically one of the authors of the Treasury Department's investigative report because and I quote Mr. Ruth here that FBI has never subjected itself to thorough external investigations in its history since the 1920s nor have they been held accountable in the way other agencies had been held accountable part of this goes back to the magic of J Edgar Hoover To the mystique he created and fear he created among the political apparatus in Washington

33:20 We also have no answers because the Justice Department and the Treasury Department have conspired to aid in a bet in the ATFs and the FBI's cover-up of the truth. Independent eyewitnesses, for instance Mr Zimmerman saw physical evidence of indiscriminate gunfire from ATF agents at the front door and from helicopters yet not one government investigator has ever questioned Jack Zimmerman am I wrong Jack? Have you... okay No federal investigator or Dick Degarren And a great body of physical evidence has emerged refuting the government's claim of mass suicide, suggesting that most victims were killed by the chemical Janet Reno said was so safe to use on those children that she was so worried about. There must be some reckoning in the facts accountability for acts and meaningful punishment of guilty because without it federal law enforcement is in the eyes of many frightened citizens losing the legitimacy necessary in all societies except police states

34:19 Law enforcement agents cannot be allowed to be above the law, even acting in their official capacities. Especially acting in their official capacities. Facts do not lie and facts must be acted on We have many new facts we have many disturbing questions and we have no meaningful answers from the government because President Clinton and Congress haven't allowed it. If the ATF charged in here like Custer, the effect of the FBI's policy on April 19th was no less deadly to the Branch Davidians than the Army's rules of engagement towards helpless unarmed Indians at the Battle of Wounded Knee. It is not surprising Clinton and Congress are reluctant to delve into the Waco Massacre. The answers promise to be painful for everyone."

35:02 But it is a healing that needs desperately to occur if the government is going to continue to enjoy the allegiance and confidence and legitimacy in the eyes of its citizenry whose members have so lately, and sorely been abused. Such healing as vital importance to the survival of personal liberty in this country. Time may be the tincture that cures all ills but two years after the Waco massacre our leaders still turn a blind eye to this festering sore on the national soul Instead, the United States Executive Branch which includes the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the ATF has made it clear that they will not admit wrongdoing, will not correct wrongs and will not punish the guilty. To the contrary, this same government persists in tightening its noose around our necks by steadily eroding rights and liberties. Career bureaucrats and people elected to supposedly protect and preserve our liberties say they do this for our own good

35:54 for the sake of public safety. Unable to cope with crime, government wants to take away a citizen's right to protect himself Then government uses crime as an excuse to take away more liberty For those who have not read history, public safety can be synonymous with state security And that fact is true today in the United States as it was in Hitler's Germany in the 1930s In the 1930s in Germany It was not just politically incorrect but downright dangerous To question actions of police agents for any reason Our federal law enforcement agencies made it crystal clear that on the ground where we stand, that right or wrong the government is willing to use overwhelming deadly force even when scores of innocents are endangered and if you resist the government will simply kill you. No matter how minor the alleged crime and they will kill anyone who stands with her even near you

36:45 Make no mistake about this. No matter what Janet Reno might say, watch what she does pay attention to actions not to words and that's what I encourage you do with Congress in the next few weeks because i'm still very skeptical there is going be a meaningful forum provided in congress Republicans have pledged to give us smaller government That's what they say but watch what they do while they've been trying to pass the contract with America The law enforcement bureaucracy, unleashed by President Clinton in the name of public safety have taken out a contract on America and on liberty. And on anyone or anything that stands in their way To paraphrase the Bible what is to be accomplished from all this for our nation and our society if we gain a whole world of public safety or state security? And sacrifice our national heart and soul What is to be gained when crime fighters become baby killers

37:39 What kind of upside-down world has evolved when our president, our Congress and our news media clamor for an investigation into the deaths of three citizens by foreign soldiers in Guatemala yet they are uninterested in the deaths almost 100 men women and children at the hands US police agents in their own country? What kind of Orwellian doublespeak have we embraced when our government's warriors are called peacekeepers, when those who were to supposedly keep the peace become warriors on inanimate objects. We had a war on alcohol in the 1920s, a war on drugs in the 1980s and a war on guns in the 1990s and we still have alcoholism, we still have drug addiction and if private citizens did not still have guns no telling how far federal agents might've gone with their assault on liberty. Fear of the government that fears your gun because the government is not engaged in a war on crime it is engaged in a war on liberty

38:30 Government is engaged in a massive propaganda campaign aimed at hiding the fact that it is failing. Booze, drugs and guns are all inanimate objects They have no conscience they can take no action on themselves they make no decisions In the real world wars are waged not against inanimate objects Wars are waged against people And people many of them innocent people are the ones who die Also killed in the process are the essential liberties, the heart and soul of what the founders this country sought to establish. Many unwitting citizens have been conned by the government's propaganda into yielding their liberties to the government in the name of public safety and I think Waco played a big part in that That my friends is a one-way street Ben Franklin said that the man who will trade liberty for security shall in the end have neither Governments can take away your rights they sold them if ever give them back The cloak of public safety is an alluring garment

39:23 but the fit is ever tighter and difficult at best to remove. Once that liberty is gone, you can't get it back without a fight." One of the political philosophers who heavily influenced the thinking of our nation's founders was the noted English jurist John Locke. Locke said quote I have no reason to suppose that he who would take away my liberty would not when he had me in his power take away everything else And your government will tell you a little liberty here and there is not going to ruin your life, this is all for the common good. Again pay more attention to what people do not what they say." Your government also said that they were concerned about the welfare of Randy Weaver's children so it shot one through the back killing Sammy Weaver and then next day shot Sammy's father and his friend and then assassinated their mother in front of her other children

40:04 Janet Reno said she made her fateful decision that led to the massacre here two years ago out of concern for the Branch Davidian children. Those were her words, but it is her acts and the crimes of her agents that bring us here today." One of my favorite writers is Henry David Thoreau and I picked a quote here because He must have been clairvoyant when he wrote this. He must have understood the true nature of modern federal law enforcement and its concept of child welfare. He wrote, if you see a man approaching you with the obvious intent of doing you good run for your life! This speaks to a much more far-ranging problem that has to be redressed or else I foresee more violence and injustice in America on a much greater scale than even the Waco massacre And that problem is the Federal Government's campaign to seize and consolidate new power over individuals as never before

40:53 Americans Today, I'm going to quote some stuff from a book by a friend of mine named James Bovard who's a columnist for the Wall Street Journal. The book if you want to get it is called Lost Rights and Jim writes that Americans today must obey 30 times as many laws as their great-grandparents had to obey at the turn of last century. Federal agents publish an average more than 200 pages of new rulings regulations and proposals in the federal register each business day I'm not making this up Jim Bovard's not making it up Individual privacy is vanishing beneath the flood tide of government power Government officials have asserted and your representatives in Congress have aided and abetted a de facto right to search almost anybody Almost any time for almost any reason, and if the Waco rate is any indication in any manner they see fit

41:45 Today, a citizen's right to privacy—even the ownership of the cash in your pocket can be nullified by the sniff of a single floppy-eared hound dog. Army commandos and National Guard troops gang up to trample crops, shoot dogs and scare the hell out anyone in their way in search for a politically incorrect plant that just a few decades ago the government was paying farmers a bounty for growing They have twisted this phony war on drugs into lies to merge military tactics and personnel with civilian law enforcement. And that's what happened right here. Drugs and guns were the excuse to bring 90 armed agents, and four Green Berets to attack a humble religious retreat that was home to scores of innocent women and children in a vain and foolhardy attempt to arrest one man with no criminal record for his failure to pay federal firearms tax

42:33 As our leaders fail to lead, they tell us that they are helping us with each new law passed. But each new law and regulation diminishes the freedom of us all. As John Locke wrote, The end of law is not to abolish or restrain but to preserve and enlarge freedom. In the 1990's our lawmakers and law enforcement agents make mistakes we pay the cost in liberty And this sham must end Our politicians have sought to maximize social progress by maximizing the number of people labeled as criminals These new criminal classes were not created through changes in people's behavior, but by politicians moving the line between legal and illegal behavior. And the more new crimes have been invented the less the government has protected citizens against the old crimes In federal North Carolina my family's hometown for just about since the lava cooled in that part of the country on the same site that the state ratified the United States Constitution there now stands in the middle of downtown traffic circle an old public market house

43:34 From the steps and balconies of this old market house, estate sales sometimes occurred in times past in which slaves would be sold and slave families thus broken up. Their fates decided by the whimsy of a bidder's fancy." And as we all know, that was not only wrong it was evil. An evil we paid for with the blood of hundreds and thousands of men Today your liberties and my liberties are put on the election block and our rights are sold and bartered according to the latest political deal making In the same way that it is morally reprehensible for one person to buy or sell another person It's also immoral for our elected representatives to auction off the liberties of US citizens

44:13 We have paid dearly for idealizing the state. And that's what a lot of the opposition to us is all about People want to buy the government's line, they want to believe what the government tells them But there is no virtue in denying the law of gravity because gravity isn't just a good idea it's the law There should be no virtue in denying the limitations of government Good intentions Ms Reno are not excuse for perpetual failure and growing oppression The more we glorify government, the more liberties we will lose. The time has come to face up to the pervasive failures of government especially such monumental atrocities as the Waco massacre We must not only take corrective measures, but punish the guilty. The time has come to radically reduce by whatever means necessary the power of government officials to coerce expropriate and subjugate other Americans

45:08 and I think they did to the Branch Davidians, because their religious beliefs are for any other reason. America needs fewer laws not more prisons by trying to seize far more power over our citizens than is necessary the federal government is destroying its own legitimacy it was a revolt against growing arbitrary power that sparked the first revolution in this country and when I say revolution I'm not just talking about the war with England that led to independence. The war was only the effect of the revolution, the revolution John Adams tells us was in the minds of the people and revolt and I've traveled a lot in this country in months and years since Waco talked to a lot of people and I'm confident of this revolt or at least armed resistance is on the minds and on the tongues many people today precisely because of the government's refusal to be held accountable for the travesties justice such as occurred on this hallowed ground

46:03 People, not just political extremists and social activists but ordinary hard-working people of the heartland who worship in mainstream churches pay taxes and consider themselves patriotic Americans. They have grown afraid of the federal government's power they've realized it's dangerous to be right when the federal government is wrong These are the same type of everyday folks who band together when the government authorities moved to confiscate firearms on April 19, 1775. The government was upset because male citizens had been organizing into independent paramilitary units." Does that sound familiar? The ordinary citizens who confronted the British soldiers at Lexington had no intention of fighting and in fact they'd been ordered not to fire And as often occurs in this kind of confrontation there was a nervousness about the whole operation somehow someone fired a shot and started a war

46:51 We know who fired the shots that started the Battle of Mount Carmel, the ATF. They still deny it." But the initial statements of several ATF agents to Texas Rangers confirm it. Some of the Green Berets who trained the ATF for the Waco raid whom I have interviewed say nothing else was ever considered and nothing else was ever rehearsed except what millions of people on TV saw, ATF agents trying to flashbang and shoot their way into a religious retreat The ATS...ATF of course did not have a No-Knock warrant And the agent charging at the front door had no warrant at all had not read or even seen a warrant. That constitutional requirement was a small detail that the ATF overlooked The Treasury Department report on Waco said they had no raid plan until three days before the raid That too is a lie, one of many and I have classified army document i've just written about

47:39 dated 25 days prior to the raid in which an Army lawyer, Major Philip W. Lindley, Assistant JAG Officer for the Army Special Operations Command of Fort Bragg North Carolina referred to the ATF's raid plan as part of the army's evaluation of the ATFs training request and Major Lindleys memo for the record indicates that the ATF asked for the presence of Green Berets in proximity to the target." End quote. And at least four Green Berets were here that fateful day, and I'll tell you who they were. Sergeant First Class Chris Dunn, Staff Sergeants Warren Ackley, Bob Morland and John Wilson. And I'd like somebody to put these men under oath and ask them what they were doing here where they were and why they were here

48:22 Major Lindley, who had his career threatened over this memo, characterized the ATF raid plan as quote an actual law enforcement mission with civilian targets to be attacked. And he didn't say it was a law enforcement mission with search warrants to be served, it was a law enforcement mission with civilian targets to be attacked. That's the Army's characterization of the ATF raid plan He also said, and I quote, the degree of involvement proposed crossed the line and exposed everyone involved to criminal as well as civil liability. I mean you can't get much plainer than that folks not where i'm from After consulting with other military lawyers Lindley said all agreed that the raid plan was not advisable As I said Major Lindley had his career threatened over this Some other people did too

49:12 But no doubt there are many other good and honest government employees who we do not know of, who have been threatened if they dare step out of the government's dark shroud of silence into the light of day and speak the truth. There are also – I know you're not going to like to hear this – but there are also good and decent agents in the ATF and FBI that wish they could speak up and tell the truth but don't dare because they have homes and families, and they know first-hand what the federal government can do to homes with Bradleys and M1 tanks. What can be done to families with poison gas? And they are as frustrated as you and I." I've got a couple of letters here from ATF agents. I want to read them to you. They're about Waco, and they're published in The National Association of Treasury Agent Newsletters called... it's called The Agent. And I just wanted to just...I picked a couple samples here um..to tell you that they're just as worried about this is we are

50:05 The first one here says, four ATF agents were killed during an ATF search warrant execution on February 28th. After investigation by outside experts commissioned by the Treasury Department, the official report indicated that ATF supervisors Sarabin and Winoski had neither the experience nor training to command such an activity, that they knew the crucial element of surprise had been lost, but nevertheless they ordered the assault on the Davidian compound to proceed And finally, they later lied about the whole thing. Winoski and Sarabin were placed on paid administrative leave for almost two years. In late October of 1994, Winoski and Sarabin were fired by ATF. Several weeks later in mid-December of 1994 they were reinstated

50:47 Am I missing something here? Didn't four agents get killed, weren't scores of women and children slain. Was the Waco report wrong or has this only been a bad nightmare? This whole thing is rotten and stinks to high heaven." I want to read you one more letter it's very short. "'I believe Sarabin and Wenoski have the proverbial smoking gun.' Why else would ATF cave in and give them a favorable settlement with such record-breaking speed?' Make an impartial investigation, maybe an impartial investigation will disclose that back in February of 93, Sarabin and Winoski were only following orders. An investigation may reveal that they've been covering up for someone higher in the ATF chain-of-command all these months." And that's what I want to talk about right now We now know who that higher-up was

51:40 The Friday before the raid, former ATF Director Steve Higgins promised his bosses in the Treasurer Department that if there was any hint that the element of surprise had been lost then the raid would be called off. And as we know, the ATF Raid Commanders Phil Winoski and Chuck Sarabin and Ted Royster all knew that the element of surprise was lost All the agents in the raid knew this element of surprise was lost Mr. Sarabin and Mr. Winoski were fired for ordering their raid to go ahead anyway They got their jobs back but They didn't make the final decision to go ahead with the raid. In the final minutes before gunfire erupted at Mount Carmel, and I'm talking about a very short span of time these two men using the cell phones issued them by the ATF made a direct call into the office of Ron Noble, the Undersecretary for Treasury Law Enforcement in the Treasury Department, a position which he had not even yet been confirmed Mr. Noble you see is the man who was in charge producing the treasury's

52:36 investigative report on the Waco massacre. Well, how convenient! He is the same man who gave the final go-ahead for this raid It wasn't until lawyers from Mr. Winoski and Mr. Sarabin subpoenaed the cellular phone records for 28 February that the Treasury Department suddenly offered them their jobs back with full back pay and even to pay their attorney fees I want you to call these people in Congress and ask them why Mr. Noble has not been put on a witness stand, and put under oath and asked about this because if Mr. Noble knew, Mr. Benson knew, that puts his resignation as Secretary of the Treasury in a whole new light. Ask your Congressman

53:17 Just how badly one must err to be held accountable? How bad do you have to screw up to be fired from a federal job? What degree of incompetence, malfeasance, malice or pure evil must be proven to hold the Federal Law Enforcement agent accountable. I'd like to know! As columnist Paul Craig Roberts himself and former Treasury agent wrote in The Wall Street Journal Waco happened because federal agents don't expect to be held accountable There is no higher authority looking over their shoulders. We need a permanent special prosecutor to investigate and bring indictments against both federal agents who use excessive force, and U.S attorneys who bring phony cases in order to cover up those abuses. Nothing less than the credibility of the federal government is at stake." I'm going to ask you do one more thing...I want you to pray because there are people here that believe in the power of prayer And uh.. I want you to pray that people

54:15 The conscience of the people who are out here, all the FBI agents, all the ATF agents are gonna work on them and they're gonna make them come forward and tell the truth. I want you to...I'm hoping that Judge Walter Smith here in Waco that his conscience is going to be prodded by the power of prayer. Walter Smith is a disappointing specimen as a human being He was, in my estimation a half-assed citizen and a half-assed Republican. And when you put it all together on the judge's bench he was a whole ass of a judge I want you to pray that people like Jeffrey Jamar who has had to resign his job because this is worked on Mr. Jamar I've seen him, he's aged a lot

55:08 I want you to pray that these people think about this and people come forward and tell the truth because that's really important. The Davidians tell me their dead friends and family members are at peace, and that judgment awaits the living for everyone involved, the living in the dead. The festering rot of injustice continues unalleviated by the salve of truth. And when these people who were here go to bed at night, I want them to dream about this. I hope they do. I want their sleep to be stalked by the specter of the people who died out here in the fire, whose fervent prayers will be muffled by gas masks as the flames look closer. Maybe by the desperate pleas of children groping through black smoke crying for their mothers and fathers and perhaps their sleep will be haunted by the shrieks of agony as hellish flames roar through their dreams thank you thanks James and one thing that he didn't tell you that i'll tell you

56:21 Get the current issue or the May issue, I believe it is. Isn't it James? The May issue of Soldier Of Fortune What he was talking about here today Is in an article inside the Soldier Of Fortune and I strongly advise that you get it! I just found out that these flowers That are sitting here infront of us were sent by Karen Westerfield of Texas City, Texas And she couldn't be here but she sent the flowers Our next speaker worked for a while, quite awhile actually I think for the Dallas Observer as a writer. He became involved in what was taking place down here and is currently well as matter of fact just completed a book on what happened here at Waco at Mount Carmel. I'd like to introduce Dick Rebus. Dick? I'm supposed to speak 10 minutes and I hope I make it short of that

57:31 Just yesterday I sent off the final draft of what i believe will be the definitive book about what happened here. The book doesn't have a title yet because in now marketing departments give books titles and not authors My publisher Simon & Schuster will spend the next few months trying to gear up a sales campaign for that book For a writer it's kind of brave new world but this will get the word out most of what I say in that book will sit well with most of this audience, which in speaking to it, I'm kind of preaching to the choir. The book is 100,000 words long and covers everything I learned in about 18 months trying to figure out what happened here Before I say anything about what happened here, I want to mention someone There's a guy in Maine, civilized state of Maine I might say named Mark Sweat who last week wrote me an email message

58:38 Saying Revis if you're gonna speak speak for all of us Mark sweat is an average American whose father is in an old folks home He's been unemployed so long since the economy went south that he's not even bitter about it anymore And he's devoted these last few months to collecting the religious documents Of those whom you call the branch Davidians and putting them in electronic form. I I don't think that anybody can fully understand what happened here until they see those religious documents. If you want them, I will give you Mark Sweat's email address The other thing i'd say is this to those of you in the press Is that if you ain't hooked up to email your behind Now for what I have to say...I am speaking mainly to the press this morning because

59:35 for that this has been my career, it was my father's career. It was my grandfather's career I am a priest and practitioner of the press and don't know a lot about other things The reason why I quit a salary job to write this book was not because anything I felt about the government though i felt it was wrong from several things I saw but was because I thought It would get me personally a little closer to solving the problem that all of us have. And I hope it will get the readers of my book closer to that. That problem is with blind men and elephants, most you know this story, I think it originally comes from Kipling or India. About bunch of blind man who go out look at an elephant one of them says oh its like a snake

1:00:34 he's holding its tail. And another says, yeah but it is like a big snake he is holding his trunk and another argues that it is like a tree because he is holding his leg This is the central problem of human existence we don't know who are we don't know where we are I might say that in covering the Waco situation The press had hold up the elephant tusk and have sexual organs And it said, ah those people out there at Mount Carmel they are sex organs in tusks. They had a part of the picture and that one sold and was cheaply come by the government gave us that information and that's why the press barons put that out as truth but there all kinds of truths and none of us know which one is absolute That's the problem with human existence at least in the secular world

1:01:42 Now when you look at what happened here, there are always two sides. We don't talk much about the second side The second side is religious It says God sees that elephant and if we have faith in him he will tell us as much about our existence as we need to know The people who lived here believed that and their take on what happened And what happened involved that belief which no one in the press has fathomed yet, which most of our constitutionalists ignore. Which is beyond our discourse and which comes to be the very most important question in our lives I'm not a religious person but that search for the whole elephant for meaning it's what life is about One time I asked one of the residents of Mount Carmel

1:02:52 Was sitting in a restaurant with them smoking and I said when are you gonna get around to asking me? When i'm going to accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior Because, I was expecting that from bible readers And what they said was well we don't do much of that because what We believe can't be explained in 15 minutes When you begin to look at What they believe You're Gonna find out That's true almost every person who lived on this property was an intellectual of the Bible in the same way that the American nation as a whole is a bunch of football intellectuals. They knew its ins and outs Now then, if I can break down for you what they believed and what influenced what happened here in 15 minutes or less maybe two minutes Here's what it was This little building out here was Noah's Ark

1:03:57 God told them to get in it. Now if you think back to the days of Noah, God told Noah to build an ark Everybody thought he was crazy He built the Ark! God told Noah and whoever he could get To get in that ark They got in that ark seven days before the flood These people out here were in their ark The flood hadn't come The Bible says no more water or fire next time They were expecting it to come. They were expecting fire, they were expecting to be attacked by Babylon and Babylon is just this secular world where we're confused and we can't decide what the truth is. They were expecting Babylon to attack them and sure enough along comes Babylon and does it on February 28th

1:04:54 The whole secular world then said, why don't you come out? Why don't you surrender and why don't you send your children out. And the people on the inside says God has not sent us a sign. The fire hasn't come and they stayed inside waiting to hear from God. Secular people say well why didn't you send the children out and some came out but the essential answer to that is Do children not have souls The person who is religious does not put life on this earth as his principal value. His principal value is eternal life God told him to stay in that ark, if they stayed in that ark, God was going to take care of their eternal life and nothing on earth compares to that So the people who died here are in their own circles regarded as martyrs to religion

1:06:03 which is supposed to be untrammeled in America. You can look around and see the results, and they've been trammeled a little That's all I want essentially to say this morning. I want to tell you that there were two reasons when you look at this situation there are two forms of logic One-and Mr. Pate is the master of it-is the logic that the government had The logic of the blind men holding the elephant The other is the logic that the believers had

1:06:39 those people who believe that God was showing them what the elephant is really like. You can't understand this situation without keeping in mind the two tensions, the tensions of those two views which essentially are incompatible I have one last thing to say...I came down here during the siege when the government was handing out information that the press barons took and sold everybody at a higher price and made a good profit from And I looked at the situation and said, there ain't no story here. We can't get it till it's over That's when the documents will be around that's when the people will be around That's also when the press abandoned Waco When this building burned everybody left as if they were here to cover a visual story TV has its own logic maybe thats what is should have done The print media should have hung on

1:07:38 and gone through the documents that were available, they're a bird's nest on the ground. And demanded the documents that the government has not yet released some of which it tells us it will not release until year 2000 I don't know why they want to hold onto them keep them in secret that long but its gonna be that long But I saw something here that changed my mind and that interests me in this story I went with a man who calls himself a constitutionalist To file some papers in court and he was arrested for trying to file papers in court. I said, Dick Revis when have you ever seen the government behave this way before? I'm not too shocked by much what this government does. I had seen it before when i was a civil rights worker in Demopolis Alabama and Dr King's movement in 1965. I have not seen such government arrogance in my life except two places Waco Texas

1:08:48 in Demopolis, Alabama. The last thing I want to say is this it's to the press...I am a veteran of the New Left of the Civil Rights Movement and Anti-War movement there is today a movement you've heard from some other speakers today calls itself Patriot it calls itself Constitutionalist and from what I've seen in the last 18 months I think it's as big as the new left was but the new left got more press I don't understand why. I don't understand the constitutionalist movement and i wish the press would start asking these people what they represent so it can tell us They have some things to say that, I personally cannot evaluate because I can't, I want to distinguish myself from certain sectors of noticed in them Want to reiterate? I am a new leftist! I believe that all races

1:09:57 and all religions, including the Jewish people are human being. So were the people who lived on this property I think our government should respect us all Thank you. Thank you Dick a lot of rumors going around here right now concerning Oklahoma City And evidently it has happened Federal building in Oklahoma City was bombed this morning Bob Brick's office is in The building that was bombed we nobody knows

1:10:52 who was injured at this point or if anybody was killed. Buck Revell, I think we all remember him from here in Dallas he said that bomb fragments were found and he believes it to have been a terrorist attack and did mention that today was the anniversary of the fire here in Waco however I just received a report a couple minutes ago that said Hamas has taken credit for the bombing So that's all we know at this point is that the federal building in Oklahoma City has been bombed and I guess it must have been a pretty big bomb because damage was done to a building next door. And that's all we know at this point We're going to take a little bit, I've got to make an exception here Gordon if you'll hang on one minute, Gordon Naval will be up here in a couple of minutes along with, he'll introduce Ramsey Clark but at this time I'd like to invite Pam Hawkins up

1:11:53 Pam has a poem that she would like to read and ladies and gentlemen, Pam Hawkins. I wasn't planning on sharing this until this afternoon. I believe with the events we just heard about it probably is as well I will tell you something personally, that I called and spoke to a counsel at the House Subcommittee on Crime. Told him to be watching Waco. Tell Congress to watch Waco on April 19th We could halfway expect a provocateur type of situation And so...I just trust all our people work within the law. I know I do. And I want to share something with you that's in my heart. And if the good Lord can open the door

1:12:47 And a shorter version of this, but not much shorter is in today's Waco Tribune Herald. John Young was kind enough to give me a guest column after Dave Hall encouraged me to do this and I want to tell you when I got up last year to sing, I said two things...I'm here for two reasons. I'm here because the Lord loves justice and I'm here because I am a mother Now, after another year of talking to Christians a lot of people who say they're Christians and that the Brasovians deserve what they got I'm here for another reason because i love this country not just our freedoms but i love its soul. And I want to talk to you especially those of you who aren't here or on the other side of that camera about blue bonnet time in Texas and it is blue bonnet time in Texas and they are beautiful aren't they? Suddenly there just everywhere

1:13:44 They have sprung forth unbidden by any of Adam's race, heeding a call that they alone can hear. Oh they're perfect and so very welcome." Few of us I believe would deny just how comforting it is to watch the bluebonnets repeat their ageless cycle and be caressed by their gentle fragrance in a world that is acting out its insanity at an accelerating rate. Few of us would not admit we sigh with relief to see the Blue Bonnet and to be assured that this at least is still right with the world. Yes, it's bluebonnet time in Texas and in a large field outside of Waco The bluebonnets bloomed very sparingly And I want to stop here and tell you that I wrote this last year when the fence was still up However as one travels the road leading to that field

1:14:42 One notices that the bluebonnets are joined by buttercups, wild rubina Indian paintbrush and a score more of their kind as though I haven't looked forest. We're providing an unparalleled bouquet for the dead and thereby making up our oversight As he so often does In that field clover and wild grasses stretch as far as the eye can see And cover the land there but nothing can ever cover the desolation there The wildflowers, come out here on a sunny day. Come out in a sunny day and you'll know what I'm talking about the wild flowers and the gentle breeze the sun and the cattle lowing The bullfrogs croaking These things all speak of harmony and peace but the ruins in the midst tell another tale A tale of horror and fear Of tranquility shattered Of pain and death Horrible death! Of conflict It looked like a war

1:15:49 Something else grows in the field, but unlike the bluebonnets it is the work of Adam's children. Hard cold and gray it is neither pleasing to the eye nor comforting to the touch The fence stretched around what was left Keeping the secrets in and the curious out until all the secrets could be removed But I'll tell you one thing It could not contain...it COULD NOT CONTAIN THE QUESTIONS Oh so many questions So few answers The tanks have rolled away, the fire has died away. But the questions? They will not die! The agents died...the believers died and the helpless little children died but the questions? The questions do not die Other things died in this field here other things also dreams ideals feelings of safety and security all shattered under tank treads My love of ignorance

1:17:00 I want you to note that my love of ignorance died in this field and it lies buried alongside my naive belief that Uncle Sam is a benevolent old gentleman, jealously guarding my best interests and the interests of my children. My political lukewarmness – in short, my comfortable life, my plans for a comfortable future are all died in this field. What did you lose in this field? Think about it! Because everybody lost something and those few who survived the ordeal having lost everything Everything including people they loved and needing comfort in love and balm for wounds on body mind and soul And yet finding themselves moving in a world that is unreasonably hostile to them They appeared us to be like the living dead. Do they not so much death? I

1:18:06 But the questions will not die. The questions... Questions like, why didn't they pick him up in town? Old questions you know like, why such extreme force to arrest one man and why helicopters is it true what I hear that they were firing Why are the jurors protesting their sentences and why are nine people serving life sentences when they were acquitted of murdering conspiracy Why were two BATF agents pardoned

1:18:43 and no explanation to the American people what do they know. Why didn't the FBI listen to its own experts? Why was a gas used on American children that is banned by the Geneva Convention? Why wasn't more care taken? I want to know why, I demand to know why! I have a right to know why and you do too but there's one question I don't hear asked very often as a matter of fact I've only heard it once And yet it is of such significance that these other questions, compelling though they be pale in its shadow. It is a question that does not ask why? It asks where? Where is the love? Love? Yes! Love! Where is love? It takes many forms...where is it?! I mean God IS LOVE and many of us believe He dwells in us so WHERE IS LOVE?? Where is love???

1:19:54 We've seen the anger and the hate, the outrage. But where is the love? In this city in the shadow of so many church steeples Where is love brave love daring love Love that will reach across an invisible and yet very real barrier Love that doesn't fear what will people think what will people say oh Love that refuses to close out members of the human family because we understand them, or their ways or their religion. Or because we've heard something about them Where is it? Mr and Mrs Methodist and Baptist...where is it?! Presbyterian...whatever! Just go down on a list where is the love?

1:20:47 But the media masters, like so many pied pipers spin a tale play a tune that suggests to us what we should believe practically how we should react. And like the unthinking children of Hamelin have we not blindly followed? It is suggested that we judge and we quickly do so forgetting what the Savior said about judging Oh oh but what happened here was so monstrous So horrific and yet so close It's just really more convenient to judge these people and wash our hands of it, get out of our mind and bask in our own self-righteousness. Forgetting that the Savior condemns self righteousness? Do we not seal our own fate in this nation so uneasily balanced on a precipice? Sermons are preached, hymns are sung but where is love? Where? Huge amounts of energy and resources are expended

1:21:56 raising elaborate monuments to a simple carpenter. And what is the one thing he wanted of us? The one thing he wants from us above all, He! He who would leave the ninety and nine to seek the One Lost Sheep What does he want of us and love one another? Love... where is it? I'm not asking these questions idly or just because I want a chance to get up in front of a lot cameras but because I am grieved for the soul this nation

1:22:37 And I believe in the future of this nation, and I believe it does have a future. And I believe that we have to start with the heart So i suggest That each of us Search our heart and In the stillness of the night and in the solitude Of our private place We come face-to-face with our creator On our own terms however we meet him And present an answer Because my friends im telling you something true When all the rhetoric has ceased when all of the causes no longer matter when you and I are dust. Even, even when this groaning globe we so proudly rule is nothing but a cinder floating in space. Even then this question will haunt us it will chase us my friends it will chase us and follow us past today through tomorrow beyond history and into eternity

1:23:48 Where was the love? Where was the love?" And it is appropriate that we should ponder this matter, especially today and any other time we remember April 19th 1993 Bluebonnet Time in Texas. A little more information on the bombing of the federal building up in

1:24:27 Oklahoma City, as I understand now it was a the federal courthouse. The ATF headquarters are headquartered in the Federal Court Building As I understand they have evacuated the FBI building in Oklahoma City. I also understand that they found another bomb and they're afraid it's going to go off and there was...there's Children's daycare center or something nearby. And as I understand, a couple of those children were injured and have been taken to the hospital thus far we have not heard of any deaths is the result of the bomb but possibility that there is another one there and they're afraid that it might go off

1:25:14 Now I'd like to introduce a gentleman that became involved in an investigative manner here in Waco and uncovered unbelievable amounts of information that was unknown to most of us. And he investigated what took place here for some time, and is now involved in one of the lawsuits against the federal government. Ladies and gentlemen, Gordon Novell Well, I guess the rain is going to make me cut this short. But it was meant to be short in the first place. Most of the reason that I'm here today is to introduce Mr. Clark. It's about the only reason that I got or had enough courage to get involved with an investigation like this because the government, I am sure, isn't too happy about this.

1:26:21 If it's near the ATF headquarters, I would almost chalk it off to the ATF bombing their own headquarters so that people don't remember what happened out here today. My heroes in this travesty and the people that came after it...I concur with the originating speaker out here who said we all should have marched on this place. That's what we did wrong. We didn't do that this was a good reason to lose your life trying to stop something so we're after the aftermath now. My heroes in this thing of Ron Engelman and Dewey Millay, Scott McQuagg, lady by the name of Carol Moore you'll read her book Massacre of the Branch Davidians Jim Pate, so eloquent up here Tom Williams and Dave Hall And these people are where

1:27:26 You can't do this by yourself. You can't investigate a case like this by yourself, you have to have people who you believe will help ya and these people certainly have There was a lawyer... which is almost a dirty word today Who stopped being a lawyer and became a children's poet And then he wrote a poem recently about it and calls it the Children of Waco I'd just like to quickly read it and introduce Mr Clark They carried away the wreckage and they scraped the earth 18 inches deep, and hoped we would forget. But I have become suspicious about how they used words like cult and concrete bunker and pit... ...and how we repeated the words until Davidian became a synonym for kook! I have become suspicious. I HAVE begun to remember."

1:28:22 I remember there were 17 children, infants and toddlers who lived in the arms of the American dream until American thunder rained bullets down from an American sky. And the air around them turned white with powdered poison. I have begun to remember how towards the end they huddled together in an empty food storage room and hoped that flames would pass...and hoped somehow to survive the pain of the poison gas." I remember the explosion we saw on the television news, a three-second ball of fire that swallowed the souls of 17 children and haunts us today like an unforgiven sin. They carried away their wreckage they scraped the earth 18 inches deep and hoped we would forget but now after all this time i have begun to remember and i want someone to tell me why was our government here in the first place?

1:29:24 Why did they make a circus of the original assault? Why, when the water had almost run out, did they ventilate and burn this church. And why and finally what are the names of the men who set the concrete cutting charge that exploded in a three-second ball of fire killed 17 children and burned a hole in the soul of our nation When they bulldozed away the wreckage and scraped the earth 18 inches deep, these are the questions they hoped we'd forget to ask. The lawyer's name who is no longer a lawyer and is a poet is Brad Baggart And he says that he will get involved back in this case The gentleman who was about to come up here probably more than my life really knows

1:30:20 He stood courageously for freedom and truth and justice for over a quarter of century. He is one of the great heroes in the aftermath of this sad affair because cowards like me wouldn't have the guts to do it without him, I can tell you that His name is Ramsey Clark Of course the real heroes of this place are out here We meet on hallowed ground because they dared believe

1:31:26 and kept the faith. I feel greatly indebted to those who have brought us here it's the only place to be today physically, it is the only place henceforth to be in spirit if we want to save this country The idea of planting those crepe myrtles over there one for each soul is inspired and I hope will all come back bring more with us

1:32:23 and always remember this event when we can stand in the shade of those crepe myrtles and breathe the fragrance of their blossoms. We're told that the long struggle for freedom is between memory and forgetting it is absolutely essential that we remember what happened here not enough has been said about those who gave their lives they were religious people

1:33:30 They dared to live their faith. I think of those on the Mayflower and those who died on the Mayflower, nearly a fourth of the number that started out because they dared to live by their faith. They wanted to be let alone and they couldn't find a place where they would be let alone without crossing a dangerous sea. One of our great justices Louis Brandeis said that the right to be let alone

1:34:21 is the most comprehensive of all rights, and the right most cherished by civilized people. Was it too much that they wanted to be let alone? Of all the whys about the government's conduct... The first question is why were they here in the first place? They had no right, no business here! And all the little whys are subsidiary to that We have to try to understand what happened

1:35:18 In fact, my sermon today will come from the Gospel according to Saint David Koresh. It's the first line of the poem that he completed that was to be the preface for the work underway that he hoped would be his ultimate expression of his religious faith. It is a line that seems so very apt at this time and place. Search forth for the meaning here

1:36:20 search forth for the meaning here. There were three general acts of our government that were criminal in their conception and in their execution, and the rest is detail. The ATF knowing of the presence of little children women and men at a church center planned and partially executed a paramilitary attack

1:37:29 No other explanation of what happened is possible. And we know it, and we watched it. Then we watched the long lonely days in which our government deliberately inflicted violation of all humanitarian law, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, cruel degrading and inhuman punishment on all of the occupants of that church

1:38:14 thinking of every way they could to torment them out of their minds and out of their faith, and admitting it in their reports. There's no need to recount all their cunning or all their violence. And finally, the grand plan which was simply to destroy the church two years ago today— armored vehicles battering at the building for six hours flooding it repeatedly time and again with gas

1:39:16 I wonder if there was a storm at sea when the Mayflower crossed that was nearly as threatening or horrible to its occupants as those hours for the men, women and children in the church here. And the fire this time took the lives of all those who would not yield their faith when you think of what they suffered through all the days of torment and the hours of direct assault and violence. And they gave their lives

1:40:15 They gave their lives because they believed. They did have a cause, they were religious people and they ought to have been left alone and they had done no wrong and the government had no right to be here. And it is for us, the living, to see that they have not died in vain Let me tell you it's not enough to only say that we failed The struggle goes on!

1:41:06 the fruits of their struggle and the good of their lives. It's imperative that you and I persevere relentlessly until every person in prison is free, out of prison, they're innocent established until there is a special prosecutor and prosecutions of the people who violated the rights this church and its members and took their lives

1:41:58 The integrity of the Constitution and the laws of the United States depend upon our doing that. We cannot run away from it, there has to be accountability! Those people would be alive they would be praying right now and it would be a better world except for the mad violence of our government agents and we are responsible for their conduct and we have to hold them accountable and the truth must come out. The great hope for the civil actions

1:42:35 is not money. Our materialism is one of the great flaws of this society, we measure everything by the almighty dollar but these plaintiffs don't want money they want truth to prevail they want principles of law to tell the government thou shalt not violate the rights of the people to be let alone you cannot murder your own citizens with impunity You will be held accountable and finally on this hallowed ground

1:43:19 There has to rise the monument chosen by the members of the church. The church goes on, I hope it will be a living monument another church from which music and love and children laughing will come forth. I hope it will be on this site and I hope it will tell the governments of the world to renounce violence against their people

1:44:09 to respect all of their rights, the first being the right to be let alone and that people will assume responsibility for seeing that governments serve and not destroy their purpose in their lives. Let us go forth from here committed to see that these beautiful souls shall not have passed in vain. Thank you

1:45:14 A little bit of an update on the bombing in Oklahoma City. As I understand, the one bomb did go off six children were killed 90 people have been injured two more bombs have been found and disarmed Hamas has taken credit for the bombing but every news report that i've heard thus far every news reporter is mentioning that this is the second anniversary of the fire here at Mount Carmel People here are mount carmel have nothing to do with it

1:45:50 Yet the news media, it seems as though they can't forget. So let's pray for those six little children that lost their lives and let's pray for the 90 people that are injured up there We're going to take a short break right now For just few minutes we were going to wait until about 1 o'clock this afternoon but we're gonna take just a short break And then we're going to begin our afternoon service The memorial service the planting of the trees. So if you'll all stick around, we'd certainly appreciate it and those speakers that spoke this morning we would appreciate it if you would come up here I guess they want to take some group pictures and then well will take a break here for little bit thank you very much ladies and gentlemen It is the best most comprehensive book on Bohemian Grove written by Mike Hanson my old camera guy

1:47:06 Hello folks, this is Jeff Davis with the legendary Jeff Davis Show from Central Texas USA. And I love my cans and archives! Peace out baby! Automatic weapons... helmets on them... dressed in black....I don't know if you can interpret ATF or whatever on there but i would think that i would be a little bit concerned about somebody's going to try to use some deadly force on me And I don't think that I'd have the courage to step outside as Mr. Koresh did when this thing started, to approach you peaceably but yet the lead started to fly and he can argue back and forth about who started it I guess. I just like to know though what happened to the door? The very piece of evidence that would've proven what shots came from where You see that's crucial! See I'm no dumbass! Now I know a thing or two about law and I know a thing or 2 about evidence

1:48:08 And that was a very, very important piece of evidence that seemed to come up missing somehow. Now another question I have, your use of deadly force policy at the ATF. Can you just kind of in 20 words or less can you tell me what justifies the use of deadly force in the ATF? Is that what the question is? Yeah. Deadly force is to protect the lives of other people and protect the lives of your fellow officers and protect your life from imminent danger. Second question here then I'm done Did you order a bulldozer to knock down a wall in a house that you knew had women and children in it, perhaps injured individuals?

1:48:55 Did you order that? Did I order it? Yeah. No! Who ordered it?! I had no idea. Again, now I come back and you were there 1100 feet from there. 1100 yards. You could have jumped in a pickup truck drove up their and tried to stop what was happening that day No, because when it started I was at home. Wait a minute! You said you were 1100? I was 1100 and drove from my residence once I saw it on TV and I drove up there back up there. I was not there when the thing started no. I just have a real problem with violation of posse comitatus there. I have a real problem with the fact that gas was used. Gas that is widely known to be carcinogenic on kids

1:49:43 And you people in the federal government want us to believe that you care about our children. You've got to be out of your minds, and I'm going to lead on this. I do hope...I do hope that you people in the federal police organizations—I do hope you'll stop and remember from time-to-time—that I know y'all got a herd of ya'll out there. You could blacken the horizon but we have 300 million firearms on our side. And I think one or two of us know a thing about pulling the trigger And if it comes to a shooting war, we're going to protect ourselves. We're gonna back you up all the way." But I still hold true to the fact that if I saw a co-worker or I see another human being—I don't care what he's wearing and he's over here and he's gonna illegally use deadly force—I'm prepared put around in his head. And I don't care who he works for. It is a damn crying shame that there weren't a bunch of us around back then just surround you bastards! And take YOU down!

1:50:48 Thanks for coming sir, my name is John. First of all that's one official position he is here officially I would not believe anything that the ATF or FBI says at this point My question sir is listening to your comments you seem to be really dangerously ignorant what all going on and I'm wondering how people in the ATF and other federal agencies formulate their opinions about what the truth is in this country. Do you get your information from ATF management? Do you get your information from propaganda bureaus like the Anti-Defamation League? Apparently, you've never watched any of these videotapes concerning Waco so my question is it seems like its real dangerous with lack of knowledge that I see you guys have

1:51:42 I'm fine with my opinions, it's just on my own. That's it. Agent Littleton? Yes Now this is a classic thing we saw this in the Nuremberg trials 46 in Europe We saw Germans SS and and also a regular Army saying, oh it was my commander and his commander that commander. And I was just there doing my job." Then you say that you haven't seen Waco Rules of Engagement was up for Academy Award? It's not some footage they cooked up it came out in the Senate hearings with Arnold Spector and others so to sit there and to say that you haven't seen the footage even the third generation

1:52:36 It's very obvious. They have one of the inventors of flare technology who works for the Pentagon, they're saying well this is automatic weapons fire and then they lay a schematic down and show where all machine gun nests were and it shows 60 minutes wooden air or port that introspection that does work for the ATF who did a study and said yes, this shows people exiting and entering the building firing automatic weapons. You see an incendiary device several of them being fired in some those rounds were actually found those incendiary grenades And I understand that the ATF needs more funding for Comrade Clinton and the Clintonistas We understand this and we understand that we have footage y'all loading up the cameras going out to kill a buncha kooks! And i'm sad your agents

1:53:23 Some of your agents got injured and killed. And I'm not going to sit around and make threats when it comes time for me to leave my parents, my girlfriend, and my life, I will for my country! And I really don't want to die because...I really don't want to die because I love this country but if i have to die for my country I will. And either- I think I can see that little gleam in your eye you would almost laugh when you say I can talk about that or I have no idea about that You you sir look like a gangster. You look like a criminal you you reek of it, sir Well that's fine. That's fine well yeah No, it's not personal It's the it's the huge give it to the fact. It's the big deal this was why I don't come here I'll never will come again But this is what it comes down to I had to come and talk to you and tell you

1:54:15 that I've read the Constitution, I know what's going on in the country. I know about Rex 84. I know about FEMA. I've been around at the national parks and seen the executive orders. I know what is going on in this country from Oklahoma City to World Trade Center bombing The October 29th, New York Times 28 even admits it. I've got a copy of it in my car that the BATF and the FBI helped the terrorists cook the bombs Andre Stossmeier, the Air Republican Army Carol Howe warned the FBI and the BATF It doesn't matter Y'all stir up these hornets nests to have media events to scare the sheep

1:54:54 And frankly, it's sick and it's sad. It is the nature of power That all you are a Roman centurion and all the rest of your type I know there are good people that have left your agencies and have left all the apparatus of control I want to know why haven't seen Waco Rules of Engagement? Why won't comment? You said you were 1100 yards away from back of building where automatic weapons fire was coming from You saw Sir, there's footage of it. There is tape of it! You want me to give you one of the tapes? Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps your not a criminal. Perhaps your just power hungry. Let him respond. I have to say that there was no automatic rifle fire coming from the back of the building. I'd like to see the tapes but I haven't seen those. Well they got them at the video store or why don't you call C-SPAN and get a copy from em'. They aired on TV and thats how controlled our press is

1:55:44 You scare me. Seeing our local police training with you guys in black ski masks and we've gone up from 390,000 to 490,000 officers and they're building helicopter bases here in Travis County. Damn it! We've been sucked off for so long. We pay 62% in some form of tax, we just wallow around and beg like a bunch of little pigs at your feet and it isn't good enough because you're insecure and deep down inside you can make the rationales all day. We're self-righteous, we're doing what's right I'm nonviolent to the end defending my country from what's coming and we see it building up, we see it preparing while President Clinton wallows over in China So do you

1:56:25 You have no soul if you do not come to grips with what really happened in Waco because you obviously won't even comment on all the missing evidence and on everything else that is happening. The front door, to the flare footage and then Oklahoma City with the seismographs and General Barton. It's so much! There is so much going on. So much evil, so much tyranny, so much barbarism What do you think when you walk into your office and there are all these little fleets of minions? It's sad to me. They need to go work for the mob or something, at least there they can sleep with themselves at night and not act like criminals. In short I shall lower the microphone. I do acknowledge you for being willing to stand there and take the heat it is not easy to stand in front of a jury of your peers which we are right now sir. We are judging you

1:57:31 We are judging the group for whom you work, with whom you work. I heard you say early on that in your opinion the people at Waco got what they deserved did you say that? I could have yes. for all this? You want to comment on that. If I said they got what they deserved, what i meant was they caused it themselves. Did y'all say that? They brought it on themselves. I didn't say that. Reno did! Maybe it was Reno who said but whether they brought it on themselves or not you have children that were killed by their very own government and thats you

1:58:23 And I am absolutely, I have not been this upset for years because I want to know what does it feel to work for one of the most hated groups in this country other than the IRS? How are you doing? Fine. Glad your here. Thank you. I've got a couple brief questions It was stated during the hearings, the congressional hearing It doesn't matter who the Congressman was, everybody knows. The question was put before them did the FBI fire one shot? The answer was no. I'm asking you to your knowledge did the FBI fire one shot or 1,000 shots

1:59:20 When? After they took over. I have no idea. Alright, second question sir Do you know if there were any foreign troops on that soil? To my knowledge there are no foreign troops on that soil Were there any United States of America forces armed forces Army Marines That type There On the compound grounds, in any area? Not that I know of. How about in the vehicles? No not that I know of. Sir I think we can prove that to be a lie very easily. You ask me what I know and Im telling you what I know. Again Im not all see all I can answer is the question

2:00:07 on any of this stuff. If y'all can do anything you want to, all I can attest to is what I know." Yes sir, okay? I'm trying to help you with what's about to say if I would give you a copy... Okay Of the rules and engagement. Lastly, I'm having a lot of trouble controlling myself yet forgive me. I am an ex-recon marine And I was in the jungles in Vietnam. I dove out into the middle of night into a jungle in Cambodia at Laos and did some things for this government that went against

2:00:44 all the rules and regulations of warfare. I can believe this could happen at Waco Do you honestly think, sir that that was a fair thing to do at Waco? In your heart Your heart sir, i would like to know your part To decide what? To go through the whole thing...to kill people in the manner they were killed And I know what it's like to suck gas into my lungs You know, I want to know your heart sir. I don't care who was right or wrong. I want to know your part Thank you again

2:01:25 They were supposed to come out and they didn't come out. I have...no? Yes ma'am? You said you were 1100 yards in back of the property, is that correct? I can understand being the helicanter...first of all I want to know have you been back to Waco since that time? Have you been back to see any of the damage done? No Yes, there is something left. There are the tank tracks on the concrete, there are incendiary flares on the concrete... yes, there is something left I can understand that you wouldn't have seen the automatic machine gun fire from your vantage point because that's hilly country and probably didn't have the best advantage You did however see the two tanks, did you not? Did you not see the two tanks ramming the building?

2:02:20 Bill, I'm glad you're here. Glad to be here! No we are! You're the first live ATF person and I've seen all the TV news and everything... And you know I have my opinions as well When you first got up there you said something that you were born from the country There's a lot of country boys in here and ladies too Take your coat off for a second Let's get... no seriously take it off I mean, let's get down here. It feels like a pecking order and we're not all up here to pick on you. We need to...we're Texans, we're Americans, we're human beings. We care about people. And we care about people! We are looking that for you too. You are talking the truth

2:03:13 that you know it. Yes, sir we're talking through this we know but we open in our eyes were saying look at something besides what somebody lays down get a second opinion okay and that's what I'm saying here You know, people have asked you for an apology. We're not looking for a potential apology It was wrong for human life to be done the way we did whether it's ATF or whether it was the Branch Davidians Or whether it was pedestrian that got run over looking at the scene

2:03:54 You know, we're human people here. That's what we're trying to do is the quality of life and that's why everybody is in this room and were coming from the heart. We want you see these things. That's why people want you look at these rules and engagement okay? And study them. It would be a good idea to take a look at that book that you recommended as well. Yeah yeah that'd be a good point. I was going to say since he had asked us to look at this report. Thank you for being here. Sir. I live in Waco And if after 28 years in law enforcement you can't answer some of these questions, and I truly believe that you're not sorry. Please resign! I'm not going to put any more heat on ya. I just want to say the book he's talking about there was a copy of that book in the state library on the third floor You don't even have to buy it. Good. Top look at it Thank y'all very much Yes maam

2:04:54 And I was there when the shooting started. And you said that you were in the back of the building? No, no, no. When you were in the back of the building... On the 19th. But what I want to tell you is... You're talking about when the shooting started not like she's talking about on the first day and I was in front then. No, I saw them with my own eyes. I told it to the grand jury I was in the back of the building and the three helicopters came in shooting. And what they were doing was peppering David's room, In fact when Jack Zimmerman got up in the trial he said that he had been there and it was like Swiss cheese! Now they tried... Before the shooting started There was no shooting going on The first thing I heard was a sound from the helicopter just like if they were on top of me

2:05:56 And then I went to the window, saw the shooting. I heard the shooting and finally three months later realized that they came in trying to kill David because his room extended out from south of the building and that's where they were hitting with all their rounds. I was apparently the only one who saw that They were on the northeast side of the building. They turned to go to the northwest. I dropped to the floor because I could see that their helicopters were between the second and third floor, and I began to question what I had seen. It was such a shock to me! I couldn't believe it. I've seen plenty of war movies. I came through the Second World War but I never saw it

2:06:55 in fact, in reality. And when they did turn everything was very dead quiet and then after they had turned...and you understand I didn't see anybody in the helicopters They asked me that and I said no, I was looking at them face forward but there was a girl up on the third floor She was a person that had 50 to 80% of her body affected by the fire. She's over in England now, but she gave her story and when she did

2:07:45 I heard it, when i heard what she said she looked out her window which was where the helicopters were turning to go to the front of the building. She saw the men in the helicopters that had guns that were doing this shooting and she confirmed what I had seen and so I know who shot the first shots and I told them who shot the first shots Now by the time they get to the front of the building, see I saw two trailers come in. I was on the bottom floor and took newspapers up to my room threw them on the bed and lay down and read them that's when i heard helicopters By the time they turned around to the front of the building then turned to continue firing all hell broke loose there

2:08:49 When I went out into the corridor to leave, I left the 2nd of March with the tape that David made the 1st of March in the evening. When I walked out there wasn't a window that had any glass in it all the Venetian blinds were hanging on one side Now I know there was nobody at those windows because all the women lived in those rooms and they were on the floor over the children to protect them. And they said, They didn't shoot until they saw somebody in a window." All I have heard from you and from all of things that has been said by our wonderful government is lies. It makes me furious to think

2:09:53 that we had no enemies around us. None of our neighbors were our enemies and yet the government feels that it's right for them to come in and start shooting at us, and when David opened that door to let them in and asked them not to use their guns because of the women and children, that's when they started shooting him in front And one of the men that I had worked with for years, and we traveled because of the things we were publishing. He was one that was shot and when I tried to find out what the government said about his body they tried to tell me he had committed suicide and his stomach was just as smooth as babies yet he had four or five bullets in it

2:10:59 because I talked with one of the men that held his hand while he was screaming. They came in not even caring about the people in their own country, they wouldn't use that gas on their worst enemy because it was against the law so what law did you come in on? I haven't heard you say one thing that gave you the right to come here don't say it was for guns

2:11:36 It was not. Now let me tell you a little story about the guns, there's two stories on it Henry was the one that gave us a license to work under him and the reason we did that is because we had called everyone in from all over the United States and all over the world because David was given this very deep study and you couldn't get it if you weren't there. Now, they had gone over to check him and when they got there they saw David Koresh, David Koresh, David Koresh, David Koresh... And they said who is this? He got on the phone and called David and David said tell him to come here! Tell them to come here I'll show em' I'll show em'. Do ya know what the answer

2:12:41 Brothers told him in the BATF, oh we don't want to do that. We don't want to do it like that! They knew you see there were no guns there except the ones that had been shipped in a box No ammunition nothing they're just just plain guns and you know You can't do much with a gun unless it has some bullet in it and they were packed away Nobody was blown apart

2:13:21 And I don't think there was more than two or three guns there. Because, I know that Paul and his young son had taken everything we had to a gun show because that's what we were doing at that time so he could survive without someone having to go to work and believe me, the people where I lived were not riffraff and they weren't stupid We had people that graduated from Harvard. We had one of the girls who came from Canada, that worked for the United Nations as a linguist She also worked for the Canadian government For schools where she laid out policy for children to follow Most of them were from England, social workers They all have fairly good positions

2:14:23 Nothing mattered except they wanted to kill us all. Nobody wanted to kill you? When the trials... Guns were found, ammunition was found No guns found Yes there was I'm sorry There was And your information about the helicopters and stuff like that You can look at raw footage on that and see the helicopters and none of them ever got... I looked out the window and saw them! ...and so did Margie So did Margie. Margie explained it, she explained what she saw with the men there with their guns and shooting and all Anyway I feel sorry for you You're a sad human being And I hope that the day will come when you realize your position before God

2:15:19 That's all I have to say for you. Now, I'm embarrassed to say this but I have kids that I have to go pick up from the babysitter and cannot be late it was made very clear to me And I really understand why you can't give opinions or say too much because there is a civil case pending which involves the ATF agents I don't know whether you're named in that case or not, but I understand that from an official capacity you can't say too much. You can't admit too much because it will be used in evidence perhaps. I would like to believe the official reports that both the Treasury and the Justice Department put out as a... In their review of the case, their so-called review of the facts

2:16:22 I have copies of both of them and i was there like yourself. To reiterate David's words on one of the negotiation tapes, he was very sad that they were agents that were killed He said they're agents that were wounded and I feel same way but if we can honestly look at stories that are told We have to admit that the government story is not all truth

2:17:07 It's a one-sided view. There may be many of them, many agents that were there that have their side of the story that they firmly believe in and there are survivors who have this side We have every reason to be angry like yourself you lost friends somewhere in between is a balance of truth not just our side and not just your side depending on where you were

2:17:49 What you saw, what you heard and what you experienced is where your prejudices are. We hold no malice toward the ATF or the FBI but we find it very hard to believe them and trust them because if they were so right in their stand that they took and in the way that they performed their tasks then would not need the lies and covering up and losing of evidence

2:18:33 and the delaying in the courts, they would be more than happy to have the truth come out. It may not be your fault that the door was missing. May not be your fault that there were shots fired from helicopters but I think in all honesty as a human being you've been long enough in the Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearms to have seen a lot of things that were wrong Nobody climbs any corporate ladder

2:19:19 without sacrificing principles. I don't care whether it's a business or government agency or law enforcement, even in the church we see all kinds of things go on that are wrong and there are those who turn their back on what is wrong in order to succeed, in order their benefits every time I see this kids put through school or whatever their excuses and their reasons are. The ATF is not without fault, the FBI is not without fault and I am not without fault David's great concern was for the safety of not only the people inside the building but those on the outside of the building on February 28th it did not have to happen that way truth of the matter is very plain

2:20:27 David could have been approached prior to February 28th. He could have been approached on February 28 in a peaceable manner and all this could've been avoided You may feel justified in firing because you were trying to protect your officers The people on the inside that did fire probably feel justified in responding, to protect the women and children perhaps their own lives volatile situation. I'm sure there was fear and panic and all kinds of feelings on both sides on February 28th If we were a bunch of crazies that just wanted you all dead, You'd have been all dead There was no ambush 50 or 60 people standing at the windows with machine guns and bazookas ready to blow you away Or you would not have any ATF agents walk away after two-and-a-half hours

2:21:42 even if you still had some ammunition. That was not our intent, it was not our intent that there should be any shooting and we were made to pay for defending ourselves for 51 days by another agency which I understand you're going to absolve yourself from being the FBI who also justify everything they did the torture and the lying because they feel we brought it on ourselves We refused to come out

2:22:30 Like you said, those reports show wrongdoing in the ATF. They show wrongdoing in the FBI I don't believe myself that a court case in front of a jury where all the evidence could be brought out would be excuse me...a terrible thing We've asked for that and the government, be it the BATF or the FBI are stalling for all they're worth because they do not want to go to trial

2:23:14 As in the case of Lon Horiyuchi, who feels he is justified in being protected by his position in the agency for shooting Vicky Weaver. He doesn't feel he should go on trial, should be exempt maybe you feel the same way for some of the officers involved in WICO but if the truth's ever going to come out then it needs to be allowed to come out and all the evidence needs to be put out on a table

2:23:56 not just the jury and the courts to look at, but for the whole American people. We cannot just tell our side and you cannot tell just your side and come to the truth because we're both biased I hope that in the months years whatever remain for us all to go through that somehow there can be some kind of reconciling some kind of acknowledgement And above all I believe

2:24:45 What would have pleased David the most would be that those who were party to the raid and siege that followed could somehow ultimately learn the truth that David tried to put across, and have a part in his kingdom. That was all he was interested in was saving souls regardless of what you may think of him, his lifestyle or teachings or what took place for 51 days. David was very concerned for souls

2:25:22 And that's what we're about. And we would love to see you all saved, I don't want revenge. I don't wanna see any more people killed on either side but unless they're willing to be honest with one another and face up to the things that we as a government perpetrate and do and take a stand about whether it's right or wrong based on the facts not on our loyalty to our agency or whatever then we will have other Wacos

2:26:02 we will have other situations where people will feel justified in resisting abuse of power or a violent entry on some pretext. Let me just say, in closing that I am sorry this ever happened Hello folks, this is Mike Hanson here on the Mike Hanson archives on YouTube and here on my Facebook. And we're here at the 25th anniversary of the memorial service here in Waco Texas and we got Clive Doyle here can you tell us a little bit about what your thoughts are on the 25th anniversary? Here it's It's alright everybody knows

2:27:08 It's kind of hard. My daughter just died, my daughter just died there. That's what I heard and we didn't put it out on the internet because we were asked not to this is first time people out here on my a lot of them don't know yet That was your first daughter died at Mount Carmel and this was another daughter. This is my oldest daughter, she's the youngest that died in the fire. Karen was coming down had her plane booked she was coming down for the memorial. Ended up dying in a head-on collision with a drunk driver

2:28:04 People up in Pennsylvania saying it was deliberate, it wasn't an accident. Tried to run a cop off the road first I guess the cop avoided it tried to run down another woman and she avoided it. Karen was third in line so they say she died instantly which is at least she didn't suffer too much But seems like every year there's a few more that'll go. Yeah, it's just not many left Clive I'm so sorry for all the stuff that has happened to y'all and hopefully it will get better but you always say its gonna be better It will get worse before it gets better Well once we're gone here maybe TRLD called me this morning

2:29:07 Well, what do you think the government's learned in 25 years? I said nothing except don't have the press set filming everything. There's Desi okay well we're getting ready to start who do you got speaking this year? Phil Arnold James Tabor I believe Catherine Lessing Marylyn Bowen wants to say a little bit. Oh good, I can't wait to see her. It's a lot of people. Alright well we're getting started here folks hope y'all can make it here for the 25th anniversary and what's the address here if they could still make it? 701 Jefferson Waco Texas Hope to see you here folks

2:29:53 Come on, anybody want to come up here? Alright that's it. Alright who wants a lady? Let Jamie go. Go ahead. Yes sir. God bless the Republic! Death to New World Order!!!