Waco Siege Survivor Clive Doyle With Gary Johnson About 20th Anniversary Memorial On April19, 2013 [roVdnw9umYE]

00:00 Good evening and welcome to Live & Let Live on the Logos Radio Network. I'm Gary Johnson We are live on Sunday, April 14th And we're talking in this hour with Clive Doyle He is a survivor of the 1993 federal assault near Waco Texas He is a student of David Koresh and he's here to mark the 20th anniversary of the 51-day siege of the home at Mount Carmel, where more than 80 people eventually died in the siege and fire on the last day and shootings on the first day on February 28.

00:50 He's going to be telling us about a memorial that will be held on Friday, April 19th at 9am in Waco. It will be the Helen Marie Taylor Museum of the Life and History of Waco that is 714 Jefferson Avenue. Let me correct you there... Go ahead. 701 Jefferson. We got the wrong address in our letter we sent out Alright, well it's in the same block I'm sure. Hopefully people will find... Well it takes up the whole block pretty much just one block away from Waco Drive and in front of is a vacant lot so you can see it from Waco Drive

01:34 Okay, well Clive welcome to live and let live and I guess let's start talking about this particular memorial service you Were telling us exactly where it is. So if in Waco Near Waco Drive if people are driving to Waco how would they get there? If they're coming from Austin You'd come up Highway 35, Interstate 35. And you would get off... Let's see the easiest way would be to get off at Valley Mills probably and drive up Valley Mills to Waco Drive and then follow Waco Drive down

02:25 You can't turn on 7th Street, there's no entrance into Waco Drive. But you either take 6th or 8th Street to go one block to your right and you'll see the museum. Alright and this is the Helen Marie Taylor Museum? Correct Who is Helen Marie Taylor? Hello, Marie Taylor is an 88 year old lady currently living in Virginia but she's had this museum here for many years now and she has shown support you know for us over the years. And uh...

03:07 done some refurbishing to the museum and it's kind of been closed except by appointment for a while but she is going to make this a reopening, rededication or whatever. So she has coupled it by sponsoring this event for us as well allowing us to use the facilities Okay, so who is she? She's somebody obviously concerned about the history of Waco. She's very into the Constitution and people's rights you know she feels that our rights were violated by the attack in 1993 and feels very strongly about that needs to be voiced and American public need to be made aware

03:57 Okay, and as you say it's at 701 Jefferson Avenue in Waco. And so you'll be at the Helen Marie Taylor Museum from 9 a.m to 4 p.m on Friday April 19th. So Clive what are you planning to do there? Well, in the past we usually have guest speakers that come and speak in the morning. And we try to get through with most of the main speakers by noon because around noon we like to read the names of all those who died, pay them tribute and remember them so

04:46 it's gonna kinda follow that line we've got several speakers scheduled uh... will also be having a uh... presentation by young man from california one of the ones that help me write my book and uh... pete he has put together a collage of of all of the people at tied in there in the fire uh... or throughout the whole 51 days for that matter. And so he will be presenting this picture that he had made up and it'll be hung up in the Branch Davidian exhibit, but is on the second floor of the museum there's a whole room dedicated to what happened in 1993 and so forth

05:42 All right, it was a very interesting... There will also be after the reading of the names and so forth then there will be a lunch which one of the survivors Sheila Martin is in charge of providing food for everybody that comes. In the afternoon, we're hoping to show a documentary, Waco The New Revelation. It's part two of the three documentaries that Mike McNulty made in regards to this event. He made Waco Rules Of Engagement first then he made New Revelation and then he made a short one called The Flair Project

06:31 And so we hope to have copies of the last two for people to purchase if they wish too, but will be showing the new revelation at least in the afternoon. All right. Clive this event it is the 20th anniversary what are your thoughts about this being the 20th anniversary? uh... it's getting this guy i can do a special anniversary or what uh... it's kind of special to some people because you know some people like call numbers like tenth anniversary when they have an adverse things like that but uh... i think every anniversary is important and getting the news out as important

07:27 And as long as we're able to do that, uh... will continue but We find or we found over the past 20 years that even many of the people that survived this horrific attack and You know the event that we went through Many of the survivors have also passed on in the last twenty years. So just how long will be around? To continue this you know might might be left up to Uh, you know you know, different ones that have a burden. You know the Lord lays on them to take this up, pick up the banner after we let it go if that's the way things happen. Exactly. Clive, you mentioned that you had written a book. What is the title of your book and what is it about? The book is called A Journey To Waco

08:20 It actually came about as a result of interviews with Catherine Wessinger, who was a college professor in Louisiana. In New Orleans, Louisiana and from the taped interviews that she did over couple years I think i did something like 40 tapes she put put this book together and of course we went over it together and made some changes but uh, this is pretty much a summary of Those 40 tapes that were made trying to not only tell my life story and experiences but also the beliefs that we have why we Branch Davidians were there at the time and also of course what went on in The raid, and the trial and so forth came later. All right? And

09:19 Catherine Wessinger, is that how you pronounce it? Wess-inger. She's going to be one of the speakers at the memorial on Friday April 19th, is that right? Correct. Bailey University or at least some other professors are putting on a symposium all day before the 19th And she's scheduled to be a speaker there, and of course we are having her at our memorial as well. So she is going to be doing double duty this year!

09:56 yes uh... in katharine wethinger uh... co-wrote your book and journey to wake of she also like cocoa wrote that she will martin's book uh... a lot of labor money hold them and spoke as well so she is he's worked on three books fourth for the survivors and she also had a book called uh... how the millennium comes violently uh... in our own right you know part of her Teaching program and everything. She's done quite a lot of research and a lot of writing on the subject over probably the last 10 years or so

10:37 Exactly. So that's Catherine Wessinger, she is one of the speakers at this event. Clive, is there an admission charge to go to the memorial? No, there's never no charge for coming and no charge for the meal we just welcome everybody that comes We will have Maybe some DVDs and stuff for sale if you so choose, but nobody's forced to pay to get in.

11:15 Right, and the meal is very good. I know from going previously Sheila Martin puts together quite a lunch there so if people are interested in this this is going to be this Friday April 19th at 9am in Waco at the Helen Marie Taylor Museum of the life and history of Waco at 701 Jefferson Avenue in downtown Waco, one block from Waco Drive. I see... Waco Drive is actually Highway 84 if people are not familiar with the name you know if you look on your map you'll see highway 84 runs through Waco

12:05 Okay, all right. I actually don't know this Clyde do you have a website that people can go to? I personally don't have a website there are quite a few people that have supported us over the years that kept up websites and then kept people informed as to the latest goings on so to speak but i don't personally uh... have a website of my own no Okay, we are talking with Clive Doyle. He is a survivor of the 1993 federal assault near Waco Texas. He's a branch Davidian and he's student of David Koresh You're listening to Live Let Live on the Logos Radio Network on Sunday April 14th In this hour were talking with Clive Doyle. He is a survivor of the 1993 Federal siege near Waco Texas

12:58 He is a Branch Davidian and he's student of David Koresh, and he was one of the people who was in the house there when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms came in there with about a hundred agents and they began shooting. And then there was the 51-day siege, and finally there was the fire at the end. Clive actually escaped the fire. And Clive you... I guess you went from the fire to the frying pan because then you were put on trial is that right?

13:38 well not immediately uh... when i came out of course i was arrested and uh... but because of the burn that had on my hands in my ankle and neck um... they determined they needed to send me too parkland hospital in dallas and i spent three weeks there uh... after which federal marshals brought me down to mcclellan county jail in waco most of them uh... survivors were held there in the McAlenna County Jail. Those that were indicted ended up leaving Waco in November of 93 and going down to Bayer County Jail, San Antonio and that's where the trial was held for seven-and-a-half weeks Myself and two other people who were on trial

14:29 ultimately were found not guilty of all the charges against us and we're released on february twenty eighth nineteen ninety four so i kind of figure out uh... you know imprisoned or incarcerated for twelve months it wasn't technically correct but from the time of the rate until the time we got out with this uh... a complete year right that you I'm not sure that's the right way to put it. You were lucky in that you were found not guilty, some people were convicted and sent to prison for as much as 15 years. Well everybody had

15:13 the first three charges on them. Some of them also had extra charges, minor charges or lesser charges beyond that so when the trial was over the jury that were there found everybody not guilty of the first two charges which was Conspiracy to murder federal agents and aiding and abetting the motor of federal agents. So, technically as far as the crime itself involved in the raid and then and ensuing 51 days everybody was found not guilty.

15:52 uh... the third count was having a weapon during the commission of a violent crime three of us were found not guilty of that in my case that would be only three charges i had so i was exonerated but on the other hand some of these others got got a guilty verdict onto third count and what happened was the The lawyers for both sides went up to the bench after the jury had been dismissed. They went up to the judge and said, well how can you have people found guilty of having a weapon during the commission of a violent crime if they're innocent of the crime?

16:33 and uh... i guess that kind of court to judge off guard because he's well but the jury made a mistake and uh... i've already released him it'd be a lot of trouble to get them back and i don't have to tell me how to change their verdict so all just wait for the third count not only with a three of us but only had three charges exonerated but several others uh... were on the verge of getting out including a young lady from uh... canada who had uh... jumped out of the fire from a second floor window broken her ankle and everything she was almost set to get on the plane to go back to canada and they've re-arrested around monday morning and uh... basically

17:18 recharge or well a rearrested and then several months later when those that were still being held with taken to uh... the court again for sentencing the judge acted like they would be able to have everything in the case of them and i gave most of my think all but one n e eight put forty years on them and uh... so it took us a trip to louisiana today appellate court uh... where the appellate judge judges decided that the uh... sentencing was too severe and that they ought to be resentenced but they send it back at the same prejudiced judge that we had in the trial and he just gave the guys forty years again and so uh... it took another two trips for the supreme court in washington to

18:10 get that over time and then all men will reduce down to fifteen years there were two women that we're also uh... given sentences but they were left the senses like five years in three years so by the time of the charges will reduce that with the two ladies were already out So that is amazing, Clive. As you said the charge having a weapon during a crime is a conditional charge you have to first been convicted of a crime

18:48 before you have this additional uh... i guess additional penalty and yet somehow no the we went from a forty year sentence to fifteen years since i don't know how you know and i've heard you explain this before how it ended up with even a fifteen-year sentence for these people but it is it is amazing uh... well how did that happen was at the prosecutor who's pushing this or wasn't just a bad judge your work the judge was excuse the expression, but the judge was corrupt and very prejudiced. I mean just statements he made throughout the trial let us know that he had no love or concern or fairness in him throughout the whole trial

19:34 uh... he was just definitely prejudiced against us and there were quite a number of remarks that were made that showed that throughout and so uh... i think the appellate court recognized that the only sad part about going to be a pallet court was but the defense lawyers our guys had instead of appealing their conviction, they only appealed the unfairness of the time that was given to them. that's all of the appellate court ruled on initially they said yes uh... you know if i had an argument therefore uh... based senate back uh... for for resenting which it to me implies that it ought to be changed madden sending it back to the same judge he delvery demonstrated or all over again just helper pregnancy was and and uh... put the forty years back on a much risk

20:34 to me like a slap in the face not only does but to the court of course itself so like i said it took two efforts to major efforts to do to get up before the supreme court before they finally uh... listen to the case and chose to reduce it and then they're the ones that altered the length of time, and of course most of the guys except for one were able to get out a little bit early on good behavior. But one young man from England was

21:11 somehow they had it in for him and persecuted him and tortured him, and all kinds of stuff throughout the whole pretty much the whole 15 years he was in there. They just moved him from one prison to another and did all kinds of atrocious things to him. Is that Livingston Fagan? right livingston fagan from england i mean they they put in the worst prisons we've still got in the system and uh... you know it was a god's doing the persecution of what can be in my book likey you know ran afoul of some uh... in-house gang sort of thing he that would look the gods that were doing the torturing in the prison than the threatening and all of that stuff so uh...

21:58 He had a pretty hard time and he stayed the longest of all of them. He was the last one to get out. Clyde, what was the name of your judge? The judge in the initial trial was Walter Smith Jr., unfortunately he was also the judge in our criminal trial... I mean in our civil trial that we brought later on against the government and he demonstrated his prejudice all over again by not allowing us to sue any of the agents, We weren't allowed to discuss the planning of the raid. We weren't allowed to discuss the 50 days in between. We're talking with Clive Doyle, he is a survivor of the 1993 federal assault near Waco Texas. I just wanted to tell everybody that we are talking with Clive Doyle He is a survivor of the siege near Waco Texas in 1993 That's 20 years ago

22:59 and they are having a memorial on Friday, April 19th at 9am in Waco at the Helen Marie Taylor Museum of the Life and History of Waco at 701 Jefferson Avenue in Waco. One block from Waco Drive also known as Highway 34 Highway 84, thank you. And it's going to be Friday from 9 a.m to 4 p.m there'll be lunch during the middle and it is free to the public we have Wendy on the line here Wendy what do you have to say to Clive Doyle?

23:46 Hi, this is Wendy Taylor from Houston. I've been a longtime friend and supporter of Clive and the other survivors. Um...I mainly called in tonight because it was the only way that i could hear your broadcast um... I do want to say if its okay to plug I'm the administrator of a Facebook page. It's facebook.com slash remember Waco, it has all of the details of the memorial and symposium at Baylor University the day before if anybody needs details or links to register for the symposium everything is on that Facebook page um... i was just calling and if they have glad i am to hear that clad on the show tonight and i hope that people there are aware of uh... what really happened at wake up what really happened in oklahoma city uh... which i believe also is a chain of events that if things had been done differently would not have

24:41 ultimately culminated in and the terror of the so-called terrorist attacks that uh... nine eleven and that war is that were involved in now uh... everything in this country could have been very different if people had been awake unaware and i i just hope that people wake up and then really pay attention to the broadcast but i'm still thankful day you had clive doyle on your show tonight in order to give him a chance to share with information what people Beautiful. All right, Clive? Good to hear from Wendy always! So Wendy you've got a... I asked earlier about where people can go online to get this information so they go to facebook.com slash remember WACO

25:29 Yeah, that's a page I created just in order to share the information. As soon as I get it posted on there all the information about the memorial is on there and anybody can logon and like that page for all of the information for the symposium at Baylor and details of the memorial this year Alright great Wendy, I want to ask you what are your thoughts about this being the 20th anniversary? Do you think that people are forgetting about all of this or is it something that people are remembering or what?

26:10 you know it's interesting you'd ask that for years i thought i would the only way to a wacko in houston they cared about this and then i got involved in the ron paul campaign i met so many other people uh... there is a lot more people that are aware of the truth than what you would ever realize And in recent years, it's become more and more. Here recently there was that case in California and I can't remember the suspect name now but there is a case just recently you probably know what I'm talking about. I think that was at Dorner in California they told us he was so-called at war with the police department ended up in a standoff

26:57 cabin and and uh... and the agent ended up in a standoff with him burned his cabin to the ground and and wake-up call must become it's become a barbade they say well you can't name of chris dorner and they said that he was quote unquote wakened and i think that the really a sign of the time that people are starting to be aware of the fact that our government can committed crimes against humanity they have done these horrific acts in violence again benefit people and any even people that may have had deserve to have criminal charges brought against them but instead of bringing criminal charges they murder then on-the-live

27:37 television uh... it with impunity that there's no fear of the consequences but i think that people are becoming aware of this and i don't think that really a good thing i think is that with this you'd be here being the twentieth anniversary i think a lot more people are starting to wake up to what they're really going on in this country and i think the more people wake up the market but we have to really bring change and in order to get back to a government that honors the competition All right, well Wendy thank you for calling in and again her website is facebook.com slash remember Waco Clive I wanted to ask you something about something that Wendy just said About the fire You were actually in the fire

28:28 did you guys set a fire? I think the official story, and correct me if i'm wrong is that you guys decided to commit suicide and set yourselves on fire. So when you were in there what exactly really happened? The official government line as you said it's that we chose to commit suicide and we did so by setting ourselves on fire my testimony is that there was no plans that i was privy to uh... provided suicide or two to burn the building down in fact every indication uh... david gave me throughout fifty one days was that we wanted to preserve the building because it was a greatest witness but we were telling the truth about the shooting on every twenty eight and uh...

29:25 you know also that when hopefully when we would be exonerated and we'd have a place to come back to and so uh... you know like i said i heard of no plans too to burn the place down or and to go out in a m ablaze of uh... glory so to speak or or uh... you know commit suicide but uh... the government is stuck to their position now i don't point blank you know point the finger at the government say they purposefully lit the fire, but When you understand all that has gone on all it's been revealed through investigations and so forth over the years They certainly created the environment for one They pumped gas in they use propellant to in order to pump that gas in which was You know

30:23 you know palpable and uh... may poke holes in the building that would demolishing the building around us and that created a chimney effect they told of those prior to the nineteen with uh... you know do people have any fire extinguishers uh... you need to get some fire insurance and all these kind of statements leading up to the last day so Like I said, whether...I don't point blank say they did it on purpose as far as lighting it but they created the situation and that's quite possible that uh..the initial fire was started accidentally. In fact, I know some investigators who would testify to that fact from what they've found out so

31:12 Well, Clive when the fire started you just barely got out of there. I was probably the last one from what I've been able to figure out... now when it was taking place and i did choose to come out made an effort to come out and got outside uh... i thought of the only one that had made it because everything what in the air i was in this pitch black you couldn't see anything he couldn't see people you could save flames you couldn't hardly see where the opening laws but i eventually came out a pet

31:55 By the time I got out and was able to look around, I realized that other people had actually passed me. from inside the building had gone past where I was and got out ahead of me. And like, uh...I think i mentioned one of the women jumped out a window and broke her leg there were two other women that also jumped out second floor windows on the front and uh...one young man from England came out a window on the second floor most people that survived the attack on the 19th and the fire

32:33 were, I think allowed to do so. Because there was no cameras at the back. This is the 20th anniversary of the 51-day siege, the shooting on February 28 and then the fire on April 19 where more than 80 people died There is going to be a memorial for this on the Friday, April 19th in Waco. It will be at the Helen Marie Taylor Museum of the Life and History of Waco at 701 Jefferson Avenue near Highway 84 about block from there

33:26 The memorial will be on Friday, April 19th from 9 a.m to 4 p.m It is free to the public there will be lunch served courtesy of the organization of Sheila Martin one of the survivors of Waco and Clive you were telling us about the trauma of the place is on fire and there's smoke everywhere, and you just... ran out and uh... just you got out of the new you lived to tell about it you were you're telling us that about that experience in and what happened so i i want you to find finish your description like i was saying there are only nine people that survived

34:24 out of about a hundred and thirty that were there when the break initially took place as only nine that came out of that fire and uh... i think the reason that there was only that few that made it out partly because of the demolition that the tanks were doing which were blocking off hallways and exit routes. They said they were making holes so people could come out but if you realize the size and weight of those tanks breaking into a wooden building destroying floors, hallways and exit routes

35:04 You know, it was a wonder anybody got out in a sense. But on top of that the ones that did survive all but one of them came out either on the front or on the southwest side of the building which was in view of media cameras that had been set up several miles away. The FBI kept moving the press further and further away you know initially during the raid they there were press right along the front fence. Some of them actually came in the driveway behind the agents that drove in, but as each day went by, the press kept getting moved back further and further until they were like 10 miles away but they still had these zoom lens and they could see pretty much the front of the building so the ones that uh... that we're inside that made an effort to get out of the fire came out the front end

36:01 basically you might say what tolerated to uh... they were not killed but we believe that many of those who are in the back and hopefully would have got out because there was less damage by the tanks at the back area like in a cafeteria section and so forth we found out later that they had been fired on some were driven back in by gunfire. We believe that at least one, maybe others were shot and killed outside and then later on bulldozed back into the rubble after the building had burned down so uh... that's what kind of limited how many survivors of the fire there were otherwise it would have been a lot more but people wanting to escape couldn't

36:53 Amazing, Clyde. Just absolutely astonishing that nine people survived the fire there were also some people who came out earlier and so those are among the people who I think Sheila Martin actually came out earlier Those are the people who eventually Were among those who went on trial afterward Yeah several several people that were put on trial, were not even there throughout the whole 51 days. Paul Fatter was not there on the day of the raid or anywhere else during that whole debacle Bob Kendrick and Norman Allison were two of three people who tried to come from downtown on February 28th and come back into the building through the fields and up a creek bed

37:48 one of which, one of the people that tried that was shot. The other two were arrested and put on trial so you know many of the survivors that are still alive today were people who were already outside building but during this age David and Steve Schneider that we're doing the negotiating with the fbi uh... actually negotiated thirty something people howton specially uh... many of the children and and be all the people in so forth and so uh... you know sheila martin was one of those that came out during this age but for those that didn't get out uh... by about mid-march then uh...

38:41 you might say victims of the tactical team who was surrounding us with barbed wire and destroying the building bit by bit, throwing flashbang grenades at anybody that made an effort to come out. Things like that so people balked coming out in case they were shot. And it wasn't until a fire in desperation. Some of them finally did manage to get out, but like I said others that tried in other areas where there was no coverage by media cameras didn't live to tell the tale. Clive it's just absolutely astonishing all this that happened 20 years ago and now you're having a memorial this Friday April 19th

39:38 in Waco and I wanted to ask you a little bit more about some of the people who will be at the memorial. We talked about Catherine Westinger, she's going to be there she is as you mentioned a professor at Loyola University in New Orleans, Louisiana. One of the speakers there Clive is going to be Dick Revis the author of the book The Ashes of Waco can you tell us a little bit about Dick Revis? Dick Revis was a reporter back when the initial siege took place 20 years ago

40:27 He, as you said he wrote a book about it. I helped him on the book and helped him with information for it and so forth collecting news clippings and things like that. He used to come to the memorials. He's spoken at some of the earlier memorials In fact, he made the statement one time. He said I don't go to church... The only time i go to church is when I come to these memorials but uh... he moved away from texas and uh... his teaching in a college out in north carolina so

41:04 that's been a few years since we've seen dick but he has agreed to uh... to come and speak because he recently was asked to go to a gathering of federal agents up in washington dc just uh... called probably a month or two ago and uh... he went and spoke about uh... came away with it you might say very negative attitude about what he heard and what he saw going on there. And so hopefully, he will address that when he speaks it. We have another young man that's going to speak who is currently suing two FBI agents

41:53 that were involved in the Waco situation, but they've also been involved in other major high-profile situations where the government are involved. Is this James Spencer? James Spencer. Like I say he's currently got a case against some of the FBI agents and he thinks he's got a good case of perjury and misrepresentation of the credentials and uh... also conveniently tampering with or losing evidence you know paperwork and so forth uh... in in many many different cases uh... he's got all kinds of paperwork on on cases that they've been involved with them it's almost like there is there to lose it guys for the government

42:43 they conveniently misplace or lose documentation and evidence and so forth, so that when a trial comes up it doesn't go the way of the plaintiffs or whatever goes in favor of the government. Well Clive I'm very sad as we think about this. I know you lost family members in siege and I think it is important that we remember this not just on the 20th anniversary but every year. And, I want to tell everyone that they can go to this memorial on Friday April 19 at 9 a.m in Waco it is at the Helen Marie Taylor Museum

43:32 of the life and history of Waco at 701 Jefferson Avenue. As Wendy said earlier, you can find out more by going to facebook.com slash rememberwaco Clive Doyle thank you for joining us here on Live and Let Live. Well thank you for having me on Again, the memorial is going to be on Friday April 19th at 9 a.m., at the Helen Marie Taylor Museum at 701 Jefferson Avenue in downtown Waco You're listening to Live and Let Live on the Logos Radio Network We are live on Sunday April 14