Mount Carmel Branch Davidian Massacre Memorial April 19 2012 [tOb V2YxdBY]

00:00 Glad to see everybody here this year. This is the 19th annual memorial, it's the 20th one since the fire. I had one during the month of June in 1993 while I was at Jennifer's. It's hard when you think back, it's hard to sum up all that happened During the 51-day siege in 1993, we're here today to basically remember and pay our respects to those who died. And to bring out some things that we've learned since then as far as what took place so we ask that you bear with us

01:09 One of my speakers hasn't showed up, so they told me to just keep talking. One of my speakers hasn't turned up. Not the one that's here but chose not to speak So what we want to do is ask Catherine Lessinger She will come forward at this time. Catherine Lessinger is a professor from Louisiana, from Loyola University She's been involved over the last few years in writing the history of survivors. She interviewed Catherine Madison before she passed, helped write a book for Bonnie Holliman before she passed away and wrote a book for Sheila. And as you'll see over here there is supposed to be coming out in August but she has not come yet

02:08 She's going to talk a little bit about that, but also about some evidence that she discovered as she read through the logs that were released through the Freedom of Information Act and so forth. The things you want to share with us. So let's get started. But after we got finished with Clive's book it is off at the printer right now not printers, it is with punctures and prepared for the printer And I started reading through

02:51 and it's a 594 page document. It is available in the Lee Hancock collection at the archive at Texas State University in San Marcos. And Lee Hancock is a reporter with Dallas Morning News, and somebody was following her, leading to her a number of very interesting documents. And okay I'll try and speak louder... that's not a microphone is that? Is that a microphone? For us. Pardon me? Yes for them. Alright I'll try and speak as loud as I can or maybe I'll come over here.

03:37 no not good buddy we're recording this I spent the last month and a half reading through all 590 page It's not intended for public consumption. It was an internal document What it does is, it's a compilation of various laws so you know within the agency we have the HRT Hostage Rescue Team they had their law The negotiators they had their law Back in Hoover building in Washington DC

04:23 SIOC, that's Strategic Information and Operations Center. All the guys, the FBI agents who were out here in Waco on the case in 93 their commanders were reporting constantly back to SIOC. SIOC was directly involved in all of the decisions that were being made So, and then somewhere you know somebody took within the FBI took all these various diverse logs and pulled out entries and put them into a compiled event log. And that's what I've been reading okay? And so there are various agendas in the log

05:07 And you can see the various agendas of the negotiators, HRT, SIOC. So obviously we know there are various agendas in the law but despite the agendas and the agendas are interesting to talk about but you also gain very interesting information that if we don't have otherwise so I thought I'd just share with you some things that I learned Also, I was reading the event log in conjunction with a book by a man who was the negotiation coordinator for March 24th. His name is Gary Messner and he's got a book that was published in 2010 entitled Stalling For Time

06:00 He also gives some very interesting information on what was going on behind the scenes with the FBI. And you know, those of us who have been concerned about what happened and have studied It's been very obvious that the actions of the HRT, the tactical actions were undermining the negotiations. And every time... Well you know quite a few children came out early on but later when adults started, every time adults would come out

06:35 the HRT would do something to punish the Branch Davidians, which would discourage people from coming out. And what Gary Nessner reveals in his book is that even the negotiators thought that negotiations were being undermined and that's why he got pulled off the case because by March 25th they called him back out of Waco and they sent somebody else in because he confronted Jeffrey Jamar about the tactics. And then he got a call that night, and they took him off the case. So I don't agree with everything he says in his book about religion and all that but nevertheless there's some interesting information in this chapter relevant chapter

07:28 It's a bit hard for me to know where to start because there is so much to highlight and of course I want to wrap it up. You know, time to immortalize everybody but looks like I've got a little bit of time So here we go Well, I mean we're familiar with the events that came out but i'm going to start here with March 12. And March 12 is the day that Kathy Schroeder came out and then also later that afternoon at 6 p.m Oliver Garfurtz came out and then that night suddenly the electricity got turned off and uh interesting thing happened that one-that night um

08:34 And of course there were bugs inside, and so one of the bugs picked up David dictating an SOS message to be flashed through one of the windows using a flashlight. And of course, the FBI saw that and then the next night is when they brought in the spotlights. So the spotlights were there to harass people inside the residence but also critically I think to prevent anyone on the outside seeing the SOS messages Also, the next day March 13th

09:14 Jeffery Jamar, the on-scene commander told the negotiators that they should not make any effort to call in to do any negotiations. So the log reveals that Jamar was directing the negotiations but he was always in touch with SIOC. They were fully onboard with the decisions that were being made by March 15 you know that's when they started using combat engineering vehicles to push the lumber back behind a building. They were flying in his book, talks about how they pushed it up that big pile and that looked ominous to people inside. March 16th is kind of interesting. On March 16th Mike Panera, the lead guitarist of Iron Butterfly called the FBI

10:09 and he recommended that the agents use loudspeakers to play in a gata de vida over and over again at the branch divisions to drive them out of residence. He said it worked during the Vietnam War, and he said that if you could offer to bring iron butterfly into Mount Carmel they would play in person so that's the first mention using the irritating high decibel sounds as a kind of psychological warfare. It comes from Mike Panera, of Iron Butterfly.

10:46 But also on that day, a special agent in charge arrived from El Paso by the name of Dick Schwein. And he took over the evening shift. You know, Jamar had the day shift. Schwein had the evening shift and he was very much responsible for implementing the high decibel sounds through the night but again with approval from SIOC. On March 17th SIOC ordered the negotiators to take a hardline approach. What they meant by that was set a deadline, say have 10 people out by 1 p.m., buses are there if they didn't come out something will be destroyed and so all the destruction that we saw during the siege lot of that was in response to setting that deadline and people not coming out

11:43 But, so they got that order from SIOC at 9.35 a.m., in the morning but at 10.15 am the negotiation team enters this law and it says I'm quoting, Poresh has set up this situation and is trying to fulfill a prophecy which he dies And then it mentions a psychiatrist by name. It says, this psychiatrist would say this idea over national media. And then a particular negotiator was tasked with calling the psychiatrist so he would say that idea over national media. So that's the first entry in the log about what I see of manipulating the national media

12:38 March 18th, they started removing the fuel tanks. Clive talks about that in his book. March 19th, two men came out here today, Brad Branch and Kevin Lund. I didn't know what time you guys came out but... What time was it? Well anyway you guys came out on March 19th The next day though, the next night Jamar on March 20th, Jamar spoke with an official in SIOC and this is quoting from the log. It was agreed that we seem to get more productive results when we put pressure on compounds. Okay so that was the entries for March 20th however they didn't really ramp it up until a little bit later because on March 21st seven people came out

13:43 You know, early in the morning it was Victor E. Collingsworth and Annette Richards at 11 a.m., Rita Riddle, Gladys Ottman 1258 p.m., Sheila Martin, Ophelia Santoyo James Lauder They got seven people But that night there were... oh no excuse me later in the afternoon early evening The tanks destroyed some vehicles. And it was that evening that they started playing the high decibel irritating sounds during the night, okay? So a very successful day getting people out and then they ramped up the psychological warfare. Anyway this is where Dessner had a confrontation with Jinnahar and he got pulled off the case and uh... He was pulled off by March 25th as other people came in

14:39 Somebody else came in as negotiation coordinator. But the negotiation coordinator was not by our stage, but he was still playing a pretty significant role. March 28th, this is when David Korosh received a telephone call from his party Dick DeGaran who had been detained by his mother. And then that was followed on March 29th, March 30th, March 31st April 1st Dick DeGaren came to Mount Carmel, went inside numerous times. Spent many hours inside talking to people and then later Jack Zimmerman came the attorney who was representing Sue Schneider and a lot was accomplished during those talks but interestingly let's see on April 6th there is interesting entry

15:44 because the negotiation, the guy who was the head of a negotiation unit based at Quantico called SIOC and he... this is what the log said. He called to request any update on any possible contingency plans that deal with Correz should we fail to leave the compound at the end of his holy week." And then it goes on to say, "...He was told that no definitive plan had been agreed upon furthermore no deadlines have been set That was at 8.35 a.m., however, at 3.30 p.m., SIOC logged that a request from the HRT to the Army at Fort Hood for 48 illumination rounds and 36 ferret CS rounds had needed authorization from higher up

16:42 So the guy at Fort Hood couldn't get that authorization. So HRT was then devised so they could seek that authorization to get ferret rounds, but that were obviously shot in on April 19th. So here you've got a negotiation big boss being told no deadlines nothing's planned and nothing is in the works but yet they're in process of ordering ferret rounds and SIOC knew them Toward the end of the siege, the FBI became aware that the Branshavidians were collecting rainwater in Alcove or Courtyard.

17:25 And they very much did not want them to do that. And so, they started... and you can see the alcove is to the right of the central tower it's on Matt's diagram over there on your table. So when people would go out where they were collecting water FBI HRT guys would start throwing in flashbang grenades And this happened a lot. So it happened for the first time apparently on April 7th, two flashbangs thrown at people or fired at people in the courtyard. April 9 is very interesting because that was Good Friday. And Steve Schneider, who spent most of the time on the telephone with the negotiators. He requested to be permitted to go outside between 3 and 4 p.m., the hour regarded as when Christ died on cross. And he wanted to light seven canisters what he called incense

18:28 They seem to be some kind of smoke canisters because they emitted orange smoke. So, they gave you permission to go out and lined them up and pull the tap and release the orange smoke during that time but at 630 p.m., HRT agent advised SIOC that her special agent in charge, Jamar and HRT commander Dick Rogers quote there would be no plan to fight a fire should one develop in the Divinity. So that decision is in the law as of April 9th in response to the incense incident on Friday

19:21 Also, they're ratcheting up the harassment in the Branch of Indians at 7pm that night. Steve Schneider came out the front door because somebody in a tank beckoned him. A lot of times, the telephone line wasn't working you know it would get run over by the tanks and so it was not unusual for somebody to come up in a tank and back them for him to come out and talk to them then they'd work on getting phone lines fixed So they backed him he came out and threw a flashbang grenade at which of course unnerved him badly Also that evening, somebody else was in the courtyard who got flashbanged. By April 10th they were laying concertina wire around the building. Clive talks about witnessing that also on April 10th, the negotiators began to start asking questions about pregnant women and children inside so they wanted to know the due dates of pregnant women and Steve told them

20:25 And I'll mention that again in just a minute. On April 14th, this is the end of Passover ended April 13 so April 14 David wrote his letter saying that he would write his manuscript and his little book on the seven seals and then they would come out He was going to give the manuscript to Dick de Gearing's attorney two Bible scholars, Dr. James Faber and Dr. Bill Arnold and then they were coming out so at beginning at 1021 a.m., Dick DeGarrett spoke with Steve by phone apparently he read the letter to them And so by 1250 p.m

21:16 Byron Sage negotiated or reported this new development to SIOC about the plan, you know writing it and then coming out. By that afternoon Steve and Judy Schneider were starting to request typewriter supplies because they had a battery operated word processor that they were trying to use because they didn't have electricity because the electricity was turned off I think it's kind of heartwarming but poignant that by that afternoon, Neil Vega apparently was very excited about the prospect of coming out. So he started hanging out banners outside the windows, little friendly banners. He goes three banners, read Proverbs 1 2 3 4 we come to love not war another banner let's have a beer when this is over and third banner my name is Neil Vega

22:16 So a series of three. And then about 30 minutes later, he hung out three more banners. He goes, media and FBI don't know the truth. You can't accept the truth. We could still have a few beers together on one banner. The next one is I'm an American. I love America but EATF killed my family. So SIOC at this point knows that David has a plan to write his book and come out But the log at 6, 11 p.m., SIOC called an HRT agent in Waco and asked him to prepare a notification list should assault take place. Anyway I'll clarify that in a minute. Also though very...it's 645 pm

23:12 Greg Summers brought out a packet to give to the HRT guys at one of the tanks. And David had signed his contract with this attorney, you know? So it's a retainer contract with an attorney so I think that is clear sign that he was signing or coming out because he signed the contract And that was the first step. We also at that time sent the letter that had been read to them previously about writing this little book Also later that evening, SIOC called back the agent and the Waco Command Post and gave further details about what they mean by negotiation notification list

23:59 And basically he was told to list people in a timeline format relevant to who should be contacted prior, during and after assault plans initiated. So it's a list of people in the government who should be notified. April 15th negotiations logged an entry called Health Concerns about the two pregnant women And that Nicole Gitt was five months pregnant and Aisha Gergarcos was due in May. That's what they wrote, Somebody Else is Flashbacked! So David is writing his book but on April 16th at 1 15 a.m., a tank runs into the building

24:54 And apparently it was in the room right where Graham Craddock was sleeping probably, in his bunk bed. But apparently Graham was so out of it even though he ran the building and came to push the building down a foot and half. Graham didn't wake up that David Thibodeau had to wake him up and get him out there. So you know just one more thing to disrupt the plan to come down Dave, Steve and Judy are still asking for a time of our nursing bonus. April 17th that's when the Janet Reno, they got the approval from Attorney General Janet Reno to, um... For the assault on April 19th They had the meeting with her starting at 5pm by 7pm The log shows that plan was approved Then that evening

25:58 an official in SIOC called the HRT commander Dick Rogers and he read the rules of engagement to Dick Rogers. The rules of engagement are not in the law, but what is in the law, he also read to Dick Rogers a document entitled stipulations with regards to use of CS which is very interesting. And I'm summarizing here number one if during insertion his subjects say we must back off or will harm the children, we back off if you do not give negotiation. Number two, if a subject is viewed threatening children and there's a clear shot the subject will be shot. Number three, if subjects are threatening the children but cannot be seen, we back off. Number four, be sure that all who leave compound following insertion of CS are interviewed concerning location and condition of the children

26:56 Number five, the mere presence of a child in the door or opening does not stop insertion of CS. And number six and this time I'm quoting from the law it says if mass suicides are indicated perceived with emergency rescue plan is briefed welfare of children is paramount in this operation So a little bit later, another official called and read the same documents to Special Agent in Charge Jeffrey Jamar. So Jamar and Dick Rogers were both clear on these instructions. April 18th they removed the remaining vehicles from front of building that complete the installation concertina wire. They talked about having funnel there at the driveway

27:47 Clyde, when he escaped from the chapel side ran into the Constitutor wire and then came out the front. Steve and Judy are still asking for... they were asking for a Decept typewriter ribbon for this electric word processor They were also asking for batteries but they were told that the commander would not allow them to receive batteries at this time Somehow they raked out batteries anyway because we know that Rick Reddell brought out a prepared floppy disk with David's first scene, which is an incomplete manuscript of the first scene.

28:43 Those of us who've studied the negotiations know that all throughout the negotiations, the Brashendinians kept asking for milk for their children. A lot of times they didn't get milk right away. A lot of times the milk was kind of like hostage to get more children sent out and then children would be sent out and milk still wouldn't be sent in on some occasions but every now and then they would send in six gallons of milk But on the night of April 18th, first of all the typewriter ribbon cassettes were delivered. No batteries for the typewriter or processor but negotiators for the first time without being asked sent in mail for the children. So that was the evening of April 1st. Okay so we get to April 19th.

29:41 There's a different law. This event law doesn't really have much on April 19th, but there is separate law for April 19 that I'm going to start referring too and basically it shows that special agents in charge Jabbar and Schlein and another guy were in the forward tactical post I don't know where that is, but I'm going to guess it's the undercover house which is now destroyed. It's not there anymore but it's the house across the street that the ATF uses as an undercover house and I think the FBI can continue to use it as their forward operations center so that's what they were... Then there was a rear

30:26 tactical command post where Dick Rogers was located. His call number was HRT1. I don't know where the RTOC, the rear tactical operating system was but I think a good guess is the guard in the back behind the building Special agent in charge Bob Wicks who did handling the press briefings. He remained at the command center which was over at Texas State Technical College and that now on April 19th is called OSC, Operation Support Center so that's where he's located So I'm going to just mention a few things from April 19th At 125 AM

31:27 a physician, pediatric burn specialist from the Galveston Burn Clinic called and talked to an agent and offered his assistance if needed. Just out of the blue in this lab so you know it's not hard to imagine that he was returning somebody's call but we don't know why. As we know the assault started at 6am The log only reports the audio for two bugs, but there were actually more bugs. There were a total of 11 bugs throughout the siege and a lot of them got thrown out or destroyed during the siege We don't know how many bugs were operating during the assault on April 19th

32:18 But in 1999, Colonel Rodney Rawlings talked to Lee Hancock with the Dallas Morning News. And he told her that he was present there during this assault. He was a head military liaison between the FBI and Army basically. And he said he and the FBI agents were listening to surveillance devices from real time audio from the surveillance devices in real time And he said that they were using the audio from the bugs to direct the tanks where to go. He also told her that they could hear children and mothers inside their concrete at the base of the central tower, in whose words crying talking to three. So we can assume there are more bugs than what they reported.

33:18 All right. So here's what the law, just a few things from the law. At 825 AM SIOC requested that a remote camera be placed on the tank dome to look inside rooms for subjects before the building was torn down and that is what the law says You know, there was a lot of things going on. I'm not gonna recount everything but you know Clive in his book he talks about how at one point he decided that he wanted to get a bottle of water that he had left in this room And the log reports that about 10.15 a.m., a man is seen through one of the front windows with a gas mask on, looking around for something in one of the rooms and then he picks up something solid and then leaves." Okay? So I think they saw the line. But moving ahead here... 11.55 a.m..

34:19 HRT1 that Steve Rogers advised the SAC and OSC, if that would be Bob Briggs at the command center quote, that foodstuffs at base of tower gas occupants fled moments before. And then Rick said that the OSC says we advise HRT1 to order the clearing of the area on front area so they can exit quickly. Then, of course, the SIOC logged at 12-11 p.m., it says fire started in compound appears to have been started by them. Excuse me,

35:09 Fire started at Compound Pierce who had started by them adding the torch to it. 1213 PM, RTOC logs fire department received this report. 1213 PM, RTOC records HRT-1 radioing to OSC Operation Unicorn Command Center their torching device At 12, 20 PM SIOC log. The interesting thing about this log is that it's very clear that SIOC, the command center at Hoover building in Washington DC they were listening to the bugs They were watching your video They were listening to all of the communications between the agents They were listening to all of that in real time When even you and Graham went out to signal that the telephone line had been cut by the tank

36:12 And they named him, and they're going to bring him outside trying to fix telephone lines. So the SIOC knew what was going on in real time. At 1220 p.m., SIOC logs five people coming out, people coming out in all directions. 1224 p.m., our TOC logs try to determine where the children are that's come in from HRT1. 1234 PM, SIOC logs. Fire trucks arrive and run right into Cone. 1235 PM RTOC log HRT1 says get any fire units up now! 1236 PM SIOC logs. Five burned in the lock ground. Front light side windows. The white is the front side

37:17 observed individuals lighting fires. People clearly seeing lighting fires by FBI personnel for TOC, seen with a nod. In Clyde's book he talks about how the government tried to make that argument during the criminal trial and it was just proved to be totally false. But anyway they're locking in at 1236 PM. At 1241 PM our TOC logs fire engines pulling up now 1259 p.m. RTOC logs, children may be in pit area and then skipping ahead to 1030 pm the log says ATF assumes investigative responsibility ATF established crime scene perimeter assume investigative responsibility. Is any of the logs did they mention the Delta personnel? They're the ones that planted

38:31 You know I suggest we obviously we know what blood is and doesn't match with what other things are in the incendiaries. But, um... Nutsmith Lodge has a memorial garden Normally we try to have the reading of names about the time of firestorms which from records that

39:14 had access to took place about nine after twelve. So before we do anything else I think we'll go ahead and remember those that died there at Mount Carmel most of you are familiar, those have been coming for years are familiar with the names as they leave them each year i've presented them in different ways try to make it interesting

39:53 by the countries they were from, I presented in alphabetical different formats. A lot of times we forget as Kathy mentioned in her talk the horror of the ones that came out, excuse me, the horror of the ones that died at Melkoma has been with us all this time what most people don't remember

40:32 perhaps think less of, as all the ones that came out during the negotiations. There was something like 35 or so people that came out as a result of the negotiations and we want to remember them too todays and so I'm going to begin with those who died on February 28th We don't have a special memorial each year on February 28 but thats when it all started with the shootout by the ATF. Those who died February 28th, Winston Blake from England he was 28 Peter Gent age 24 from Australia Peter Hipsman an American citizen He was 28 Harry Jones who is 64 American citizen Michael Schroeder 29

41:46 He's the one that was actually shot later on in the afternoon as he tried to get back into the property and was left laying in a creek bed for several days before his body had recovered. And Jadine Wendell, who is 34 an American citizen from Hawaii There are also four PATF agents that died on February 28th Conway LeBleu, 34

42:23 Todd McKeon, 28 Stephen Willis 32 and Robert or Rob Williams 26 Those that died on April 19th Nicole Gent Little 24 from Australia She was the twin sister of Peter Dalyn Gent age 3 Pages Gent aged 1

43:00 and an aborted fetus from the cove that was aborted during the fire. Aisha Kayafas Summers, 17, Australian of Hungarian extraction. She died in the fire. Starnell Summers age 1, her aborted baby had died during the fire as well. The big percentage of those who died in the fire were from England

43:42 a lot of them are Jamaican extraction, but all British subjects. We had Ulrich Bennett age 35 Susan Venter 31 Abadwali Davies age 30 unlike most of the others he was from Liberia not Jamaica Yvette Fagan who was Livingston Fagans wife age 30 excuse me 32

44:25 Doris Fagan, Livingston-Fagan's mother age 51. You had Beverly Elliott age 30 Sandra Hardiel 27 Diana Henry 28 Pauline Henry 24 Philip Henry 22 Stephen Henry 26 Vanessa Henry 19 and the mother of these children Mozilla Henry doesn't have her age correct here

45:06 Livingston Malcolm, 26. Diane Martin 41 no relation to Sheila John Mark McBean 27 Bernadette Monbelli 31 Melissa Morrison age 6 Rosemary Morrison 29 Sonia Murray 29 Teresa Navraezza 48 and Clifford Sellers 33 of all those

45:52 Cliff Sellers was the only white subject from England. All of the rest were black, like I said most of them were from England. Canadians who died in 1819. Raymond Friesen, 76 He was an American citizen but was born in Canada and Novelette Sinclair Hipson 36 We also had Pablo Cohen who was originally from Argentina

46:31 who was discovered, met by David in Israel. So he was an Israeli citizen and Rebecca Sapir who is a Samoan of New Zealand nationality You have Catherine Andrade age 24 Argentinian background but American citizen you have a daughter Chanel Andrade age 1

47:08 And you have her sister, Jennifer Andrade, 19. You have Mary Jean Borst, 49. Sherry Doyle, 18. Lisa Marie Farris, 24 Floyd Houtman, 61. Sherri Jewell 43 David M Jones 38

48:38 Rachel Koresh, 24. Cyrus Hal Koresh age 8 Star Hal Koresh age 6 and Bobby Lane Koresh age 2 Jeffrey Little 32 Anita Marie Martin 18 Douglas Wayne Martin 42 Lisa Marie Martin 13 Sheila Renee Martin 15

49:19 and Wayne Martin, 20. Juliet Santoyo age 30. Crystal Barrios age 3 Isaiah Tocco Barrios age 4 Joseph Martinez age 8 Abigail Martinez 11 and Audrey Martinez 13 James Riddle age 32 Steve Schneider 43 Judy Schneider 41

50:09 Lina Schneider, age 2. Scott Kuduro Sanobi, age 35. Flora Sita Sanobi, age 34. Gregory Summers, age 28. Lorraine Silvida, age 40. Rachel Silvida, 12. Hollywood Silvida, age 1. Michelle Jones Thibodeau, age 18

50:46 Serenity C. Jones, age 4 Little One Jones, age 2 and Chica Jones, age 2 Neal Vega, age 38 Margarita Vega 47 Mark Wendell, age 40 I want to read the names of those that were survivors at this point which we don't always do In Australia you have Graham Craddock

51:37 Clive Doyle, an American citizen and I'm originally from Australia. Edna Doyle my mother who has since died. And Oliver Diapus British survivors were Norman Allison, Ben Statham Livingston Fagan and his two children Nahara sorry that I forgot the name of the daughter Renee Victorine Hollingsworth

52:19 who was originally from Guyana but was a British citizen. She has since died. Derek Lovelock, Natalie Nobrega and Marjorie Thomas Canadian survivors Gladys Otman Ruth Otman Riddle Villareal and Amanda Richards US survivors Conception Okuna since deceased Brad Branch whose with us here today Jane Castillo

53:03 deceased. For those who didn't remember, it was one of the guys in prison that died shortly after being released. Clyde Doyle. I guess I got myself a little more U.S. citizen. Karen Doyle Paul Fatter Kalani Fatter Misty Ferguson Tilly Friesen is since deceased Heather Jones Kathy Jones

53:47 Kevin Jones, Mark Jones and Mary Jones. Jenna Kendrick Woodrow Bob Kendrick Margaret Lawson James Lauder who is deceased now. Janet McBean Chrissy Madd Jake Madd Scott Madd Daniel Martin Jamie Martin who's since deceased Kimberly Martin Sheila Martin Trudy Meyer

54:28 Rita Riddle, Katherine Schroeder, Brian Schroeder Angelica Sinobi-Craggy, Crystal Sinobi-Craggy Joshua Silvia, Stan Silvia David Thibodeau, Joanne Bagan Vanessa Wendell, Landon Wendell, Patron Wendell Tamara Wendell. There's one other name I want to bring to you he was not

55:18 around at Mount Carmel, at the time of the siege or after the siege per se. But he was a young guy that came down from New Bedford with Floyd Hopper and Stan Silvia way back in the beginning of David's message. His name was Victor Barreto. He has since deceased as of January 2nd this year! The book of Isaiah chapter 57 verses 1-2 says

56:03 the righteous perisheth, and no man layeth unto her. And merciful men have taken away of them, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace, they shall rest in their beds each one walking in his uprightness." From the book of Psalms 12 1-7 Help Lord for the godly man ceases! For the faithful fail from among the children of Mary

56:41 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord. Thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever." At this time we have with us Connie Gilbert-Brett from Kansas. She does a song that she's going to share with us and when she gets through we will announce what the next one is. Is it gonna mess up the intro? We need to speak in... I just...

57:34 I'm going to share a very quick little scripture that the psalmist really based on.

58:28 And it's Psalm 84, 5 through 7. Blessed is the man whose strength is in you, whose heart is set on pilgrimage." The Nabi says, "...whose heart has set their heart on pilgrimage as they pass through the valley of weakness and fear..." They make it a place of springs. The rain covers it with pools, they go from stream to stream each one appears to go by in the same way. There's pain and you can't afford to let it just be a monument that stops it and I kind of call on people making it rather than just making it a monument

59:30 Because there were so many things that happened that we can never afford to happen again. And we just have to speak out, and as we go through that valley of pain, not make it mine but make it hope well. Just dig the well. And there are days that take your breath away Some days bring so much pain Some moments just can't be undone. Some days tattoo your heart, you can stop there as a monument or find the strength to make a start.

1:00:35 But this is grief too deep to waste Too painful not to tell Too great to build a monument You've gotta build a well So when you go and fight It's what you never see, and the pain comes to you. It changes all your dreams like that merciless moon. Give you a story you can tell. A monument to you.

1:01:45 The well, the well shows weary travelers in the valley filled with tears that there is but a healing path to redeem the plates from their heels. Sometimes the greatest purpose a shattered heart can find is to grab some hope and lead the trail of those who come behind.

1:02:33 We will be different, a place of springs no longer still. Because you dared to dig a well that only glows So when you're going through the heat, give up your mercy. When the pain comes to an end, change all your dreams. Let God's mercy lead you

1:03:21 In the story you can tell, a monument is lifeless proof of what man's hands can do. Well it's a living testament of how God's mercy brought you so little help

1:04:16 And after the meeting I brought copies of the lyrics. If anyone would like it, feel free to send them in. Let everybody get to meet Grace and Kevin

1:05:35 I don't know Kevin. Kevin wasn't on the list. I didn't know they were coming until yesterday so... Brad and Kevin were two of the guys that went through the trial in San Antonio, unfortunately they found guilty supposedly So they were some of the ones that got stuck in prison sessions. Unlike Norman and I who all pervaded San Antonio. These guys spent some time, a couple years back we had Paul here. We never did get to give Jamie to come for memorial.

1:06:27 and he's got it on the roof. So I just want to introduce you, this is Brad Kevin Whitefoot. On the right side. He really likes to see the memorial being held out at Mount Carmel There have been others that have expressed that concept to me probably especially some of the people from Austin who built a chapel out there But I've also had quite a number that normally come, but don't want it out there. And I'm always torn between the problem of who do you try to please sort of thing? Please God Well that's true. You know when you got people threatening well if we have it out there then we're not coming in here as opposed to if you don't have it out there and they're not coming in you kind of get caught in the middle Then please yourself Amen

1:07:40 Next year is the 20th anniversary. What do you all think about having it at Mount Carmel? I'm here and I live at Mount Carmel, I've been made the caretaker, the taxpayer everything out there and i'm telling you that you need to come out there and get memorial from now on I've been telling you that almost every year, but nobody's listening. But now we are getting people that are telling you they need to put it out there We built a kitchen out there It's not going any...we have water out there now Connie, we do need a well Not just a well of information but a well for water Because the government destroyed that And no one is going to do it for us unless we do it ourselves You understand that?

1:08:38 And I believe we all need to get together because we're all a part of this tapestry that God, the Holy Spirit's weaving. We need to remember that and respect one another and respect one another opinions but we also need to respect God. God put us out there Clyde. I'm living there now. I feel like y'all abandoned it. I don't know why. The mother's grave needs attention... Is this just about for the 20th? No, this is forever. No, this vote's right today. Is this for next year only? Tommy! I want people to go out there and be welcomed there okay?

1:09:22 We don't have any immediate land. I would like more of a place at the memorial and the remembrance of the closest guide to the beliefs in our own history, where are these other lands? I think that's the best point. Where they were trespassed in 1993 is where we should have the memorial hang out I agree. And I'm saying... You're all welcome to come there and meet him. There doesn't seem to be any argument that the church owns the property, so the church will decide where and when things are done. We don't have any immediate plans at this time. Well he lit the memorial fire. Of course class 3 will be involved. If Bob's still around, we want him to say something before we pray for lunch?

1:10:22 I think I could. I would like to say one thing, Kevin isn't surviving. You know I didn't make it on your list? We just want to make it known that yes we still do believe what David... What about Bonnie Hall and... We just wanna make known that we still believe all the beliefs that David Koresh held and if we have more beliefs then we'll believe them The faith continues. And if anyone would like to get in touch with us, you can do that. We're at www.seventhceils.com You can read our message. You can contact us on Twitter. I'm kind of hungry and you guys want coffee? Yeah, well now your all waiting to get to the food. Too much coffee! But a few months ago... We've come along way we drove there from San Antonio. A few months ago Ron and I had gone to Thailand

1:11:27 and we discovered the fact that Bonnie's grave wasn't even marked. There was no indication of where she had buried it all, and we went to the family, Bonnie's family, found out that basically none of them except her was interested in putting a marker on Bonnie's grave so we put out a letter asking if anybody who is interested in contributing could donate toward So we went out and we paid for the offer. It was put in, was it February? We've brought it up there once to make sure that they put it in and the plan today was there were such quite a few people that wanted to go look at that. Bonnie's parents and David's parents

1:12:37 So we decided at 3 o'clock this afternoon, that we would take a contingent of people up there and deliver many vehicles and tanks for those who want to go. We know it's not in everybody's plans or whatever they have other things they want to do It is going to be two-and-a-half hour trip each way so take that into consideration If you'd like to go sit, we'll get to eat in just a second. But now let's get digging and bouncing. Just a couple more moments, okay? Thank you all for being here. First thing I wanted to say is that over the years of the Greenville College of the Appalachian Islands, I've gotten to know many great civilians and let me tell ya something folks they are good honest decent people

1:13:51 Basically, everything you've heard from the daily FBI news column that was back in February of 1993 was really just a bunch of this garbage. That's his friendly way to say it. This whole thing is just... And I'm going to echo what Mike Hanson just told me outside and my friend Elaine Gray here who's a partner I'd like to say that, uh...I believe there should be a guidance on the tape drivers. On this day in 1993 and all of these people who gave me orders to drive tanks into Mount Carmel facility buildings occupied by American military children

1:14:53 I believe there should be indictments. There's no way you can really hold these people accountable for their deadly actions." Well, some people think it's a pipe dream but there should be indictments on the tank drivers that are still alive and there should be indictments on the people who gave the oil to the truckers, tanks into those buildings and one of the court proceedings applied, one of the tank drivers actually stated in court, this is an AP story. Actually stated in court, courtroom testimony that he was given orders to drive tanks into buildings occupied by American troops and kill them. This was in court he said yes. By the way I want to ask you do know of Bobby's brother? He was a...

1:15:52 So that's basically all I've got to say. Like I said, I know many of the ranch civilians. I love them. They're great people. Unfortunately unless we all start holding these people accountable for their actions and their actions, then I'm afraid there are probably going to be more waste dumps down here. But anyway, we love you, Claude. And I put in a vote to have it next Memorial Day. Most of what we heard today from Catherine

1:16:34 a lot of what we already knew. In our case, we experienced it but the public don't know the fact that this thing was planned and carried out by not only the APS, the FBI you know different agencies that assisted them military all of this stuff The fact they were plotting to plant

1:17:11 You know, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I might sound naive or too Christian or whatever you want to call it in not wanting to accuse people and having that kind of an attitude about going in and killing men with children. I'd like to be that way. And I have been that way in the past but... Like I say, I believe in the devil

1:17:48 and whether people outright sell themselves to the devil, sell their soul for the devil and allow the devil to direct them into openly serve the devil. Maybe one thing but there are lots of other people that allow the devil to influence them you know in other words what I was trying to say is a lot of these agents if you met him on the street probably come across as nice guys You would think that they would deliberately go out there with the intent of doing what ended up being done. But these kind of logs, statements that are made and reports have come down to us over the years since then reveal some had a pretty bad attitude. We're going to Waco for turkey shoot? Wear mean green killing machines? Statements like that

1:19:00 did not reflect that they may have been members of the Christian churches or whatever, but it would melt in their mouth. So we see that when things get going there's a different mentality takes over the individual involved and so I'd like to say these laws kind of back up maybe give us a little more detail as on day-to-day basis what was happening. We were pretty aware

1:19:40 They had intent. They weren't about to let too many others get out, I don't believe and so we can basically just pray for them because David used to say, I don't care what these people are whether they're ATF agents or FBI agents or whoever he said their souls could be saved. They have the opportunity to be saved but in the last 19 years I haven't seen a whole lot of remorse

1:20:22 and the sorrow for what they did, or certainly Jeff says these people ought to be indicted. We tried that in a civil case. For those of you who have been coming on a regular basis you know that the judge-the federal judge we had in the case was the same judge we had in the criminal case in San Antonio. We named everybody from Janet on Reno down to the guy that swept the sidewalk practically in the case and the judge let them all off. You could not name any agent, any officer in any law enforcement agency in the case and he dismissed it all

1:21:23 So, I'd say we've tried that and if you got a corrupt system or you got a corrupt judge. You don't get the square one unfortunately. There is no statute of limitations on mass murder. That would be a county indictment. Can I have one minute? Sure. I got a long minute. I'm Randall from Truthseekers in Austin and along with Mike Hanson and the whole crew come up here. We try to do this every year, appealing to people who let's really remember the 20th

1:22:14 I really believe if there would have been dogs or horses or anything else other than human beings there, we would have all kind of uprisings. People marching in the street and yet there were humans. Lovely people those that remain I've met And this was all over a $200 fine, and yet we know that they practiced for almost a year at Fort Hood. We know also that Bill Clinton, a president to be toured the power plant out there. Now wait a minute... There was a Hellfire missile missing from Fort Hood that came by and ever since then there's been an escalation of tyranny

1:23:06 I think we need to remember next year and make it a national effort. And ask them, byline of next year's memorial should be step forward asking those people that did wrong to step forward and take their commands. Thank you. You would think if there were animals out there from all different organizations would be demonstrating, protesting about how they were treated. Well unfortunately there was some. We had some dogs. They were the first ones that got shot even though they were no threat to the agents. That was the plan you put dogs down before you get through front door and everybody said who shot first and so forth

1:24:08 out of the agents own mouth, their own testimony was we heard shots at the front door and figured they were taking care of the dogs. So... We knew that was in plan if all the other agents in different areas thought that's what being carried out then you know it was part of initial raid planning according to practice for a group We're going to have us all laying on the floor in like two minutes flat, all handcuffed. All 130 or so on a stick? That's a little known fact but that mock-up they trained on at Fort Hood... A lot of that is covering up the fact that Delta Force was solely involved in it in the beginning

1:25:03 That mock-up was built at Camp McCall in Fort Bragg, and this is common knowledge amongst people in that area. I grew up there. I lived there. I know the guy who taught the ATF. That mock-up was built on Camp McCall. The Delta Force trained on it privately. There was no ATF there They trained on it as a team, privately. Getting all their tactics down and when they got it all down they chose one guy. They disassembled that mock-up, they sent it to Killeen, to Fort Hood along with that guy and then he was to oversee, as an advisor these ATF guys but the Army was involved long before the ATF got involved so you know a lot of people are not aware of that

1:25:47 When I found out about it, because I knew the guy. I kept my mouth shut for five years because of fear what would happen if it got out on him and that was at the 2002 memorial there was another gentleman here who had access to the command tent he said one of his grandchildren were inside Mount Carmel and he made a statement that he overheard radio communication in there It said that we've got Koresh in our sights. We can extract him or we can take him out, what do you want us to do? And they told them stand down, stand down, we've got another plan. That was on the morning of the 19th which meant they were in a tunnel somewhere inside with the capacity to go in wherever David was and take him and extract him or kill him onsite so that wasn't ATF those guys I mean they might have been trained but they didn't have that kind of training

1:26:44 Those of you that have been patient, seen all the food or see the food and would like to get at it. Let that be the next deal on your agenda. Eating together, fellowship together, mingle and shake hands with each other A lot of these people here know each other They've been coming regularly we appreciate that Some of you are new so introduce yourselves Let's stand together and have a blessing. Like I say, if anybody is interested in going to Thailand to see me we'll take whatever number of vehicles it takes to get people up there and meet with everybody. Let's go ahead. Father in heaven, we thank Thee for this opportunity to fellowship together, to be together on this solemn memorial

1:27:55 this remembrance day of a terrible tragedy, terrible event. I pray that if the deaths of these people were not in vain and through the message going out multitudes can be saved, multitudes can be born hopefully end up in my kingdom. I pray that you will bless the hands who have worked on preparing this food supplying it I pray that you bless those who are participating in this meal and we eat to thy glory. And we always remember those who have passed on. Amen.