MHARCHIVES 1996： Mike Hanson & Catherine Matteson Branch Davidian Survivor [O1 K4koRYmM]

00:00 Okay, we are back. Oh they got the lights way wrong We are back on River City talk live we have a skeleton crew here for the day after Christmas There we go. We have a world in my opinion a world famous person here tonight Catherine Madison she she's a Mount Carmel survivor and She was Were you the only one that saw the helicopter shooting at the house when they first came up or was any other survivors left? Well, some of them. There were two other ladies. One heard them and one saw them but they didn't see the shooting I saw the shooting and that was the first thing The first shots that were made was from three helicopters And they were aiming at David's room

00:51 And that was the only room they could be aiming at. And they did really make it so full of holes, that when Jack Zimmerman saw it he said it looked like Swiss cheese Okay, we got telephone calls. Give us a call at 477-2288 We're gonna see if the phones are working We've had a lot of problems tonight. We don't have the full crew here tonight because everybody's on vacation But since we got ahold of Katherine Madison and exclusive video, we just got through showing you it has never been shown Are you there Mike? Hold on they're going to get it straight in just a minute Ah...we'll have full crew her next week right?

01:38 Okay, go right ahead Yes, go right ahead I'm outraged at what my government did up there in Waco and David's right they can't get away with with what they were doing We've got to make them accountable in 96. Now we can't hear it all. We've gotta vote that liar out of the way There you go. We've got a voting about 96. I hold Bill Clinton accountable Bill Clinton or the Attorney General? I hold Bill Clinton accountable. And when they come back in here, maybe they can turn the volume up because we can barely hear it in here Did you want to ask Katherine Madison a survivor of the Mount Carmel siege Yes, I do want to ask her question I Can't hardly hear I got a ringing in my ear though Okay They're trying to fix it just bear with us cuz we get weed We got half of the crew we regularly have up here

02:30 This was a last minute deal since we got ahold of this Catherine Madison and we're trying to get it together for you. Well they've had several different explanations, the helicopter that fired on the ATF agents that went into the window were they shooting at the one who refused to go into the window? Were they shooting at him because he backed out at the last minute he threw a couple of concussion grenades it looked like or were they real grenades in there after the other three agents went in the window then the helicopter rained gunfire onto the building and then he slid down the ladder as fast as he could because they were firing on his position so what I want to suggest is that maybe there was conspiracy within the ATF

03:16 To send these three agents in that had also by some strange coincidence been Personal liaisons to Bill Clinton in the Secret Service I think there might have been a plan within the ATF to off these three guys during the whole incident That's that's a gangster term. I watched too many old movies, but they I think there was a plan to Get a do away with these three guys that had seen some goings-on in the White House Unfavorable to Bill Clinton and I want to ask you about that if you know anything about them. Well, I had heard that three of them and that had been with Bill Clinton had been murdered

03:57 But what I saw was behind the building, and the three helicopters that came in in V formation shooting at David's room. They were in the back of the building. They were shooting from the north side of the building through to the south side where his room was And this was the first shooting that anyone heard. When they turned around to go out, there was a few seconds of complete silence. There was no shooting at all." Then when they got to the front of the building, there was more shooting. And I believe this is when Jadine was shot. She was the one that had been feeding her baby and her daughter had brought the baby out into the hallway and she was shot by helicopters. Winston who was downstairs in one of the back rooms had been shot also because

04:58 The water tanks that we had there for storage, they had put holes in them trying to eliminate our water supply. And one of the bullets had gone through the water in the tank and into his room and he was shot at that particular time. They finally found him face down in the water in this room Well, the whole incident and I'm sorry. I am very sorry for your losses. The whole incident is in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. They are not to use military force against sovereign citizens of the United States of America and when that starts happening we've gone from a democracy to a socialist state! That's what happens in China...in Red China

05:45 is they roll the tanks out when people speak out against the government or they do something a little bit different. David Koresh was probably guilty of being a bigamist, but do we go out there and kill the women and children that would have been his victims if you were gonna find him guilty of being a bigamist? I mean this is a good point. If someone's raped, we don't murder them. Well they were always talking about helping the children, protecting the children But, you know their actions were actually contrary to what they said. When they started in the front of the building

06:26 And they were shooting every room upstairs on the second floor where I was. My room was in the back of the building, but as I walked down the corridor to come out every single window on the front side of the building had been destroyed and all the glass was inside. The doors were full of holes when I went downstairs. I was amazed, the walls everything had holes in it and you know that just doesn't happen all the bullets were coming into the building not going out because especially at the door, the doors were metal

07:13 They tried to say that the door had been consumed by the fire. Then they said no, the door was missing But that door was full of holes. And that was the door that Perry Jones was standing behind, and he had at least four bullets in his midsection. Well there's no doubt is it they were trying to kill David Koresh from the beginning of the thing. They were shooting at him when he went through the door and told him stop. I'm positive its started with them trying to eliminate David. I'm sure they felt that if they get rid of David, the rest of us would collapse but you see, the message that David had been giving us would do anything but make us collapse because we knew what was going on not that we knew they were coming in not that we knew they were gonna attack us in that way but we knew there was a chance that they might come in and take the children

08:14 And this is really what we were concerned about. That is why the children were kept under surveillance by the parents and the other people in the building, even when they went into our sandbox... The sandbox that we had made for them there was always adults with them because we certainly didn't want to lose one child Okay, we're going on to the next call. Can I have another call please? Hi Mike! Hi! Hi nice to see you again. Catherine it's a pleasure and an honor to see you on the show tonight Thank You And have an opportunity to talk with you We thank God that you did survive She looks like a real criminal up here don't she? I sure do

09:01 All I need is my gun. We all share your grief and we wish it hadn't been that way, not only because of your loss but also because of the loss to our nation. So we do grieve with you. I don't really have any questions. I've seen a lot of tape about the incident but I would like if you could tell us more about what David thought and taught

09:40 Well, David started in 81. He came to Mount Carmel looking for a prophet and he said there was always a prophet And why in this time when people need more help than ever before, isn't there a prophet around? And he was talking to a lady up near Tila. She said oh I know where a prophet is and he said where and she said in Waco He said will you take me and that's how come he came down to Waco Lois Roden was in charge of the

10:22 group at that time and he did come down and he gave she and I a five-hour study. And then, he left to went back home but he called up a little later and asked if they could come down the live and he was told why of course and he did come down He didn't have going back and forth because he was in it street evangelist at the time And he lived in his car. He was a carpenter, a finisher and so in a few days he could make quite a good deal of money and he would do that then he'd go back because he wanted to talk to the young people who felt there was a great need there which is true. And he used to do evangelizing a long time before he ever came to us

11:17 Okay, we're River City talk comes you from 9 to 10 30 p.m Every Tuesday night right here on channel 16 right after Greg Erickson show he comes on from 7 to 830 On channel 16 and we're going onto the next And if you want to watch part two of this exclusive for Austin, it'll be on Jeff Davis Show tomorrow night at 8.30 right here on channel 16 You'll be on the Jeff Davis show with part two of this tape and your interview That's what I understand Okay we appreciate you bypassing all that major media and coming over here to Austin Cablevision Well I've been here before That's right one time before On The Jeff Davis Show

11:58 But you were on several other national shows, but they cut out what you had to say right some of them Yes Okay, I did get on a few shows that up in the Northwest especially. I'm amazed How many people here in Austin? Don't know the real story about what happened at Waco are you amazed? Oh, I'm amazed that people don't know but I found people even in Waco that hadn't heard about it so It just shows that Some people just miss things. I'm glad that i got informed on this issue because it's really enlightened me, I've had people call me all sorts of names, I've had death threats, I've had everything since we've been investigating this. You will, that will be the least of it and uh but don't be afraid to call us on the comment line at 370-9558 We appreciate all your calls and well... But we're going next call they got a call check down here hello

12:54 Hello? Yes. Are you there? Yes, go ahead for Kathryn Madison. Well according to an Associated Press story as it appeared in the Austin American Statesman on March 1st of 1994 on page B3 the jurors at the trial of the surviving branch davidians were horrified to discover from the government's own testimony that those tanks that we watched on on tape and on our television sets were not just punching holes in the wall to insert gas

13:30 because they were ordered to penetrate that the that residents that was occupied with men women and children and they did penetrate a room's length or more quote-unquote and some of the children that we were told our government would saving died in this manner Thank heavens for alternative media such as public access TV and also There's a an amateur network of computer BBSs And the internet that is also An alternative media that is getting information out to two masses of people That would not see it in any other way. Uh, and if you have a computer and a modem

14:17 and you live here in austin texas uh... this is free you can call liberty bps which is free uh... the number of four six two seventeen seventy-six and there's a message conference which is sort of like a calling show except in text uh... that is that you could access from that computer bulletin board system your the comments but you'll be looking at the comment that you will over your computer will be seen all over the country and all over the world. And this is free, and there's also a file area devoted to this Waco issue both of them are named Waco, The Message Conference and The File Area. And The File Area contains a lot of extensive reports and background research information. Ma'am wasn't there an effort to try to get some of the Branch Davidians

15:11 on to these computer online systems a while back when they were at the hotel up there? This is the first time I ever heard of it. And, I lived at the Brittany for quite awhile after you... After I got out of jail They put her in jail first Yeah, I was in jail for awhile But you were found innocent of the Well they actually filed charges against me and the judge came up and told me what I was charged for, and it would be a lifetime of 100 years or 50 to 75 years. A conspiracy to murder a federal agent? Murder...conspiracy...

15:57 Conspiracy to murder and conspiracy was what I was being charged with. But the very next day, it was just about 24 hours later, I was in the federal court and they dismissed the charges but told me that I was a witness and that was worse because I was really under confinement then in solitary. But fortunately, the judge had talked with me and I had met a lawyer that knew the judge and between the two of them, I was transported down to the lawyers' home which was very beautiful and they were very lovely people, Christian people. And I lived there over a month

16:37 And nobody knew where I was. In fact, I didn't even know where I was! But you were talking about them ramming the building? When they went to ram the building they rammed every staircase and made it so bad that when David Thibodeau tried to get upstairs to see his wife and children he couldn't get upstairs and he had to stay downstairs. Of course, at that time he really didn't know that they had been brought downstairs to be put in an area where it was safer than being upstairs on the second floor but you notice when they rammed the sides of the building, you could see the building was starting to lean and sort of collapse

17:27 when they went through the very front section of the building, right where they knew that our... which happened to be our refrigeration area. They called it the bunker. When they went in there, they rammed the top of it and when they rammed the top of it, it was made up very heavy cement pots of the roof fell in and crushed the children and the women that were under it. And then they tried to say that we had taken hammers and bashed our children. We were there to save the kids though, Catherine? Oh, of course! Okay but anyway is that collar gone?

18:16 I guess they're gone. We're ready for another call Was David Koresh near death before the fire? Do you think he was did he lose a lot of blood and was he near dead? Well when he was shot, He was...I talked with two ladies that were nurses and they told me that he had lost so much blood That it was it seemed almost impossible. He could replace it when I saw him I was called down to where he was because you wanted me to take out the 58-minute tape I would really not have come out without that tape that we just saw that's one It wasn't audio, okay? That was to be put on radio and he wanted her to go well all over the United States so people could hear it and

19:01 And so I finally said yes. I didn't really want to come out, but I said yes because he said I want people understand about us and I did bring it out and I gave it to the gentleman who was supposed to receive it put on air and this is when they Fingerprinted me and put me in jail And that's why a lot of them didn't want to come out because they were they were scared that they were the same way you well when I saw Always call here and ask that and also where are they being shot at when they were coming out some of them? Well, I'm not sure about the others but I know the shooting even though it had stopped after 45 minutes

19:43 It still was going on in areas like when Mike was trying, the man that they said was trying to leave. He was trying to get back to his children and they shot him and he had four four shots in his back and then when he was down in the gully, face down someone came along put two bullet holes in his head which just disintegrated his face. That's terrible. You got another call on the line? Hello, hello welcome to River City talk hi. Hi You are a survivor and you saw the actual bullet holes in the roof in the ceiling I'm hard time hearing but I understand what she said Yes not only When I was in my room? I did not find room enough to lay down in the hole with the children and the women the women were over the children To protect them

20:44 In my room, I had always thought if anyone was coming in the building they would come through the back. There was a roof under our windows in the back that was over our dining area which was a huge building – a huge room you could step from the roof into the building because it was only about three feet from the roof, where windows were. And so when the shooting even was going on I get up to look out and make sure no one was coming in the window because I had one of the windows in my own room and some other windows were open back there and they could easily have stepped in

21:32 One of the women that was out in the hall kept yelling at me to get down because I was going to get shot. And later, I found out the reason she was yelling that way was because the bullets were even going through her hair and when I came out and walked the length of the corridor... ...I saw all the windows shot out. The glass was on the inside not on the outside. The Venetian blinds were hanging on their side There were holes everywhere. If you remember or heard about it, one of the children that came out they were drawing having them draw pictures and all these dots are on the pictures even on the roof and they said What are the dots in the child said? Oh those a bullet holes Okay

22:24 One thing I wanted to ask was that Dick DeGaran is one of the few people from outside who actually saw this. He has a certain amount of credibility, but it doesn't seem like enough people really listened to him or believed him Well dick wasn't the only one that came in Jack came into jack Zimmerman and they were both on nationwide shows And I was very impressed by both of them. How they answered and what they said, they had tried their best to make it possible for everyone to come out and be safe when they came out. Part of the problem was that people inside realized what was going on with those who did come out. Many of them would not come out

23:14 I know that many of them did not want to come out because they wanted to stay there. That was their home, it wasn't just a building or church. We had meetings there and we studied the Bible continuously, but it wasn't just a church. We lived there. Do you think if this could happen to y'all up there? Do you think this could happen to Jews, to Muslim people... It has already happened to individuals since I have been out. I have learned many things that's been going on that I did not know while I was in there that happened before us

23:58 That also happened after our incident so we need to bring this to light and also People better become aware of what's going on if they would just listen to both sides of the story on this issue I found people that I've talked to throughout this and you know a little investigation We've done since we've been in contact with the Davidians And and Jack DeVault and this map that people will not listen to both sides of story They will just listen to one side of the story, and that's that. That's the the ATF, the FBI and the government side. Is that what you found? Well how can you make a decision

24:34 How can you make a decision on anything if you don't know the complete story? Okay, just second sir. It's absolutely impossible to do that. Okay go right ahead sir. Hello uh what's that lady's name again? Catherine Madison. Catherine Madison oh did Chief David Koresh claim to be Jesus Christ? DHS! Welcome to River City Talk I want to answer him no he did not Go ahead and answer him. If you must know, he did not ever say he was Jesus Christ. He never said it! They took his words out of context is what I was told You know there have been so many things said that are untrue It's very hard to condorize lies Very hard because people turn what you say around

25:34 And make you say something you weren't even thinking of. If you give us a call on the comment line at 370-9558, we'll make sure that you get the real story of Waco if uh... We have to stay up all night right? Hello? We're only going to be on until 1030 but give us a call in the comment line Go right ahead sir. Hello? Yes! Okay what is the real story? What's the real story? You're not getting both sides of the story Okay, well we hadn't watched the show from the beginning. It's kind of hard for us to sum it up I saw a lot of it but let me just say that I'm a student at UT Can you turn this box up in here? We got half the crew here tonight so were working on it There ya go Okay, um I'm a student at UT my name is Kevin and obviously

26:21 The ATF was pretty presumptuous in a lot of things they did. I disagree with the way they used force, for example, in bringing the tanks in but what I'm having a hard time with when you say that we're just looking at it from one side or a lot of people are is it seems as though David Koresh on the other hand tried to martyrize himself. No Is it true? Did he have a hand in setting fire to build the compound? David, I don't have enough time to tell you things so that you will understand. Sum it up in one. But one of the things... Well who set the fire? Well I don't know. I can't say who said it. I know one thing. I know that no-one in our group said it. I know that. I have heard other reasons how it was set

27:20 And right now what I want to say was this about the suicide. That is absolutely a falsehood because if he had wanted to commit suicide, he could have done it long time ago after you were shot when I saw him he looked like he was going to die and I believe the reason he made the tape that I brought out was because he thought he might die at that time. He looked like he didn't have a drop of blood in his veins when I look down And this is one reason I took the tape out. And, I thought sure that we were going to court that he would come out and they'd have him in court and we all be brought before a judge or something but didn't happen. Okay sir what do you think about how many people still in prison? We've still got political prisoners... At least 11. Eleven Davidians are still in prison at this time. Well yeah about eleven

28:19 Because one is coming out very soon. We need to press for their release don't you think I hope we can make it because they have so much They have made that there the amount that they owe so high That even if million point two right even if they come even they can't they have to do the 40 years from what? I understand And even if they do the 40 years and they don't pay the money that the government says they owe, They're going to be charged so many years in jail for so much money. Which would be... They'd be there forever! By the way, they were found innocent of a conspiracy to murder a federal agent Oh yes, there was no conspiracy and you know

29:11 There was no murder that they talked about. If you have the opportunity to look at some of the tapes that I've seen, you would realize there was no murder. Some of them talk about friendly fire on some of the tapes... What's friendly fire? They shot each other? Are you there sir? Hello! Yes Can you hear me Mike? Yes, we can hear you. Go right ahead I was just gonna make a statement uh...I truly believe that David Koresh is a Christian and he believed in biblical love

29:49 the biblical concept of the Bible. I think he truly preached whatever the Bible teaches, but this is just an example of what's going to happen to us Christians. We are going to be looked at as a sect of demonic beings or whatever because we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and i think that that's why the Lord says be prepared to suffer because i think we're gonna suffer a lot of the same thing that David Koresh did with people who lived there at the camp profess to be Christians and believe in Jesus Christ. So it's just something that they're going to show the people, that if you do profess to be a Christian and you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, this is just an example of what's gonna happen to those people who profess to be Christians." And that's just a comment I wanted to make. Well there is a one world order coming into being...and when they have the one world order fully, there is going to be a religion

30:44 that everyone will be expected to go along with. And I'm sure it will not be biblical because they hate the... They go after the people that are studying the Bible. Are you there, caller? Yes, okay. Let me just make a statement here to the people in the control room running half speed tonight But we're going to go ahead and just go on straight on out And we're gonna We're not going to run the rollout and we're gonna go on until they cut us off. We got eight minutes So go right ahead Okay, am I there? Yeah you're there go ahead Do you know why this even happened yes, I do oh

31:28 There's more than one reason and I can't go into them now. Part 2 is going to be on the Jeff Davis show at 830 tomorrow night on the same channel, she'll be on that TV show The second part of the video and she's gonna be just on the last part like she is here She's gonna get into it more Let me tell him 1 thing...I don't believe this has ever been brought public But, while when we were on... We had to leave Maucamo for a while and George Rodin let... We let George Rodin have it for awhile. And he was put in jail and when he was put in jail. We came back on the property, when we came back on the property he had let it run down we found out that there was people there that were not just from jail but from prison that had been more or less in charge of one of their huge houses at the back end of the camp and they had a phenomenal lab

32:29 When we finally went in, after we got our own houses straightened out and all the garbage out that they had left and cleaned it up. We cleaned up the outside. We went up to that place and started cleaning it. As we cleaned it, we found evidence. David called the Sheriff's Department and they came out. I happened to be with David at the time He put it on the hood of the car, spread it out and showed them what we had found. And there was some white powder there I'm sure you've heard of that and the sheriff took his finger

33:13 putting his mouth like this on his tongue and then went into the powder and put it back on his tongue. And when he did that, he just scooped everything up and left very hurriedly. He didn't say one word. He didn't say thank you or anything. They just left! Nothing was ever said about it even when George started shooting at us And we had to go to court, to prove that the place was ours. He had allowed these people to do this! He had allowed them to set up this lab. He had allowed them not only to do that but they were doing a lot of other things that we found evidence in this building

34:00 But that was never talked about. agent or local agent, or whatever. Why didn't people just walk out of the compound and just stand outside? If there was going to be some type of government murder on a bunch of people then it would have been obvious when everybody's laying their dead. I think it was very obvious to see what happened

34:43 let me ask you a question. You're in your home with your family and all of the sudden somebody comes to your house and surrounds it, and starts the fire at you are you going to come out I don't think so. Well, there was a lot of media there. There were times when... Media? Oh well, if i was in a place with 100 people or so and a bunch of police drove up and told us to walk out and they were shooting at you through the window. They didn't tell us! Sir, they did not tell us to walk out. She saw the helicopter machine. There was no knocking at the door. Did you have thrown like white flags out your windows?

35:31 says a lot of that way any any media sarah i think the issue would have seen all these white flag you know messages saying we surrender you know whatever uh... there was no attempt to just kind of they really well have you done any investigation on this certain tell me the truth it okay here's my second point okay if that's that's the case where he couldn't believe everything looks like that and is always evidently happenings were as bad as they work then is there not an attorney who would take your case and you could sue the government? We're doing that. Sir, we're trying to do that. Have you ever seen Constantine Wyer?

36:12 I didn't see it until just a very short time ago. They had that right up to the windows, they couldn't have gone out the windows, they couldn't have gone out the door... You couldn't get out of there! Now they said they put it around to keep people They didn't say whether going in or coming out. But they, you couldn't get in or out of that place. Well I'm not gonna say that uh... Ramsey Clark and the billion dollar lawsuit sir. They are suing. Ramsey, Ramsey Clark and the billion dollar lawsuit That's what they got going on right now. That's right Okay well I believe if um, If your successful with that lawsuit then everybody's eyes will be open to what really happened And they would be able to hear both sides

36:58 Let me just say this before we go off. I wish you luck with that, too. Sir let me just say this before we go off... I felt the same way you did a year ago. And since I've been looking into this, uh...I found out a lot of things that does not match up with what the government's saying but anyway go right ahead we're going to try get one more call in before i have to make an announcement hurry. Catherine thanks for being on tonight all of us here in Austin appreciate it. I think the ATF oughta crack down on all the fraternity houses where all the real drugs and fornication is going on Okay, remember River City Talk comes to you from 9 p.m.. To 10 30 p.m.. Every Tuesday night right here on channel 16 Remember part 2 of this the real Waco lie I guess it would be

37:45 I have to make the announcements. It's going to be on channel 16 on Jeff Davis show go right ahead ma'am We're gonna try to get as many calls in with you Okay, hurry cuz we're going off we're gonna go up there and less than a minute I'm trying to think. And if she don't get through it, ma'am tune into the Jeff Davis show tomorrow night and she'll tell that answer. Sure. Okay. I'd probably say it was Rachel who was his legal wife

38:22 And how old was she? She was about 14 I think. 14 years old, does that answer your question ma'am? That's kind of touchy though is that an okay...does everyone think that's okay or...? Well give us a call at the comment line put the comment line up there at 370-9558 we'd love to hear what you have saying and we'll have the questions out on The Jeff Davis Show tomorrow night Okay thanks for taking my call Alrighty thank you and we appreciate you coming on Catherine Madison A Mount Carmel survivor and uh I've met quite a few You don't want to be called Davidians, but Davidians in the last couple months and I really appreciate y'all coming on here. And exclusive video that we had tonight in the part two is going to be on tomorrow night. We're off