What Women Want Men To Know About Abuse And Sexual Harassment

00:00 In this episode of the Team Super Dad podcast, I ask women what they want men to know about abuse and sexual harassment. It's an eye-opening subject that all men need to hear. Roll theme. Welcome to Team Super Dad. Real dads creating their best lives ever. More time, more money, more fun. You are not alone. You're on Team Super Dad. Good evening. Welcome. We are Team Super Dad Live. This is the podcast. Yes, normally podcast. Normally on a Friday, it's a lot of fun with the wrap-up. You might have seen also some of the check-ins or the podcast lives.

00:43 What you won't have seen for a while is us doing an expert hangout. And that's where we get a group of people together on the live and we talk about a subject. And there's been some practical subjects before. And during Black Lives Matters, we talked about being black people, what it is to be a black person and ask questions from a white person's perspective, just so that we got an idea of what that really meant. And over the last couple of weeks, since the Sarah Everard abduction and murder, there's been a lot of heat online, a lot of conversation, a lot of upset.

01:21 And as I, it was pushing my buttons just around my divorce and court and trying to sort of my attitudes towards women, which I've, you know, from being someone who had many, many female friends to then having a whole load of kind of like women, it was pushing my buttons. So then I went on Twitter and I had a look around and I just thought, okay, what really is going on? And I could see the upset. I could see the intensity of it all, which got me to just dig a little bit further. And then through some conversations with women where I heard, you know, one of the ladies is on tonight. She said to me, yeah, I was crying in my kitchen last week about that. And I was like, okay.

02:03 Another lady I asked to come on and do this live with us, she said, you know, who is quite an active feminist and she ran for government down in the southwest as, you know, sort of on a as a labor candidate, but also very much on a woman's rights bill. She was too upset to come on and do this. So that's how important it is. And without further ado, I'm going to press the video and I'll bring everyone in afterwards. Hey, there we go. I'm just going to be on my own rambling away. Tonight, as you can see, we have ladies first.

02:48 If chivalry's okay. We'll go Liz Evondon. We'll go. Joe Baldwin, Chop, mentor, author and publisher. And Glenn, good old Glenn, my pal from A Dating Dad and co-host of the wrap-up on Friday. Good to have you all here this evening. Hi, Johnny. Hi, everyone. Good to be here. I'm feeling woefully underdressed. I've come straight from having an afternoon walk. And so I'm warm, but not smart, I'm afraid. Okay, okay. Well, we'll let you off, Glenn. Unless you like peel it off, or you've got like a tuxedo underneath or something. That would be quite a James One move, I've got to say. So I'm a little bit nervous right here now.

03:32 People that know me very well know that doesn't normally happen very much about pretty much anything. But this subject matters. And we do have, we've made some notes, some sort of idea of some of the things that we might talk about. Some of them are purposely a little bit bloke dumb, right? Because maybe it's the everyday stuff that we need to speak about. And quite hilariously as well, I had to joke to both Liz and Evondon, given that the topic of tonight is what women want men to know. And I'd written the list of what we're going to talk about. And that was quite funny as well. So it's a long list, Johnny. It's a lot list. It's a good list. We're not going to cover it.

04:17 We're not going to cover it all. But, you know, the most important thing really is that this is just a conversation about the everyday experience of women and the sexual advances that they face from men, both welcome and unwelcome. And I hope, you know, for anyone watching, particularly on the replay, if you are, by the way, watching, this is such an important subject. I would encourage you and ask you, please, to just share it, share it around. That's got nothing to do about growing Team Super Dad or highlighting any of us and the other work that we do. This is about having more men understand what it is to live as a woman.

04:59 woman and to experience being wolf-whistled, being rubbed up against, being grabbed from behind, like and all the extremes that that scale can go to. I guess for some people, it might be uncomfortable, and perhaps that's where some important subjects come up as well. So I guess what I wanted to start off by asking is: the heat online last week was very much about women crying out enough, enough. What does enough mean really?

05:43 Well, I think enough means enough of being quiet, enough of putting up with it, enough of just allowing this to exist and living in fear. Your question earlier was very much what men need to know, but actually, it's not necessarily about the groping or the lewd comments or the it's actually about the fear. Because what men need to know is so many women will walk down the street even in daylight and feel fear. That is the reality of being a woman on the street at times by yourself,

06:28 let alone at night, let alone nine o'clock at night or even later. And that is sadly an outcome of many things. But I think, you know, what the enough comment I think is to do with the fact that we have spent way too long, I feel, of being firstly silent about what actually happens to us. And I think we've got to take responsibility for that. Women do not report anywhere near enough of the crap that happens, the assaults, the abuse. We don't report it. And I haven't reported everything that's happened to me. So I put myself in that pop.

07:10 But also, I think enough is enough of feeling and worrying and walking down the street with all those conditions that we are meant to do: looking out for lights of where someone lives, holding keys in your hand in case someone comes at you so you could stab them, crossing over the road if you see a man ahead. We have been conditioned, we've accepted the conditioning to behave and consider our behaviour as a requisite of men's aggressive, abusive, and attacking behavior. And I say men, you know, because obviously women can attack women too. But we're talking about gender tonight.

07:54 But that is the reality. And that is what we've all had enough of. It's actually, we shouldn't be feeling like this and we should not have to make these conscious choices, let alone be in the fear. It's twofold. It's we shouldn't even have to even consider all this shit, let alone be in the fear. Well, I swore before you, Liz. Southerners, like a two in the north, south. I think good swearing. And I think I would kind of elevate it. I'd agree with all of that. And I'd elevate it a level and say, I think that the fact that we've had the past year, nine months of it living in our homes, a lot of us who are fortunate enough to feel safe at home, which is not every woman.

08:43 But a lot of us have had a year where we haven't had that fear. Yeah, we've had a lot of periods of time where we've been, we've had respite from that adrenaline going around our system. And just to bring the fear to life, like, yes, it's walking down the street, but just imagine, you know, remember being in a pub, remember that, or a restaurant, you know, when there are people around, you know, or an office or a workplace. Just imagine looking around that place and imagine the animal part of your brain, guys, being aware that 50% of the people in that in that space could overpower you physically. And that's true for me, despite the fact that I lift weights and train and I'm strong. It's true.

09:23 And there's a bit at the base of my brain that knows that all the time. And so for me, the enough has come from that's had a bit of a relax, you know, for the last year. There's been a bit of space. And actually, why shouldn't that be the case? Why shouldn't I be able to feel like this in more aspects of my life, not just when I'm behind a locked door at home? But go ahead. Sorry, you guys can have to go back in because otherwise, Liz and I agree like this. You know, I totally hear you, Liz. That whole whole kind of, you know, because ultimately, most women can be overpowered by a man, given. Believe me, I've done martial arts, I was a police officer, I know how to defend myself. Yeah.

10:04 However, I think sadly, it's the fear that turns that into something that impacts us. Because, you know, 99.9% of men you will generally meet won't want to even consider overpowering you. But it's about that we've attached that. But you don't know which ones are which, do you, by looking at that? And I think that's been one of the challenges that the not all men people who have been out there, that's been their response. It's been, look, I'm not like this. None of my friends are like this. I would never think about doing that.

10:41 And almost every man out there would never do this. Therefore, it's not all men. And I think the response has always been, look, it's not all men, but all the people who do this are men. And we don't know which is which. We don't know who you are. That's a disclaimer that really, really hacks me off. I nearly sworn I didn't ask Peggy. That really hacks me off, Glenn. That is completely bloody irrelevant. Absolutely, completely, totally irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you've never considered or done anything, or even if you're in a group of 25 friends and none of you, it doesn't matter.

11:20 It's because it happens and it happens mostly to women. That is the only thing that should be focused on. And I've had a friend of mine recently tell me that she told her dad about things happy and he literally said to Joseph, No, it didn't. You never told me. I said, I'd never do that. I'd never do that. So how could that happen? And that is another whole level of denial and shielding the reality. We're not making it up. Can I go a step further and go, no, not all men. But if you don't, and you don't basically, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

12:04 So not all men do this stuff. In my experience, and to add to what Joe's just said, most men, in my experience, when it's happened to me in the presence of men, do nothing about it. Nothing about it. In fact, in the best case, just kind of shrink into the background and leave me to deal with it. And then, so, so, yes, not all men do it, but I'm pretty sure, I don't know, I'm going to throw the challenge out there, but you know, you guys and anyone listen, any men listening to this, how many of you have seen or been present? How many of you have been present when a man you know has treated a woman in a way which is unwanted, harassing?

12:47 And let's face it, this is a spectrum, right? Where at one end is a cat call and at the other end is rape, and they are on the same spectrum. They're all going to go, I'm going to break that down a little bit because I think there's two separate things in what you said. One is how many men have been present, and two, how many men have known they've been present in that moment. I don't think men fully understand the simple actions that men take that can be interpreted in a different way. And like you're saying, some men do think a cat call or as a waitress walk past, just a comment that they know she can hear, but is directed at their friends that will be, yeah, I absolutely would, or yeah, yeah, she's going to get my number, or something like that.

13:30 A comment that they're going to make to their friends that they can hear, they don't see that as actually on that spectrum, they just see that as, for want of a better phrase, banter. Um, and none of their friends are calling them out for it either. None of their friends are saying, Come on, man, that's not cool. And so, they would have been there, but they won't have recognized that they were there, I suspect. I think that's so let's tackle that one right away. So, here's my theory on that. Um, every person has a space and is entitled to feel safe in that space, and that means not imposed upon by the wishes and thoughts of other people in a way that affects them. And so, that kind of that's a perfect example, that comment, you know, in the in the restaurant about the waitress, that he knows she can hear.

14:13 This is the key. I'm not saying don't have conversations, you know, do what you like on your own time. Well, no, don't actually, because there's probably lines you shouldn't be crossing, but let's not go there for now. This is about kind of in public in the presence of women. For me, he knows she can hear. He is therefore imposing his thoughts on her with no idea of whether she wants them, welcomes them, or is interested in them. And that's on the line for me. That's part of that scale that I was talking about. Because they're derogatory in their demeaning and they're sexist and they're puerile and they're misogynist and and and and one thing to be one thing to be commenting.

14:49 commenting like you know oh what an attractive woman that is a whole different comment to oh she she's gonna get my number or you know she's hot I'm gonna shag her that like let's be crude about that's the kind of side of kind of comment right but what does that feel like what I mean it's all a lot of those words Joe are great and they're kind of like the the proper labels for it but on a on a on a basic level what does that feel like is it like how does you feel small you feel it it great it makes you feel um completely disrespected unvalued um it it it actually subject subjectifies you you just become literally a just a physical presence as in a female form um it's it's

15:40 disturbing it can scare you because then you've made me you feel vulnerable obviously depending on environments especially but you'll feel vulnerable it's like um it's like an unphysical attack non-physical attack actually is what it is because what what you're hearing as a woman is that that man has got this eye on you that man has has got an intention whatever it is even if it's a slight intention or imaginary intention an imaginary intention and a judgment on you and therefore if you add into the fact obviously we most women as we know could be outpowered by a man or you know

16:20 they could make any advance he's surrounded by his mates makes it even worse that's it's you know because then if if they're supporting that comment from you from me and i have been in an abusive situation with a group of men this most horrid moments my life so it it all of that just it absolutely demeans you to nothing and you feel i'm guessing it's not just that they're actively supporting it even if they're not challenging it then that's giving tacit implicit support that's my point exactly if they're not challenging it they're allowing it

16:58 and in allowing it to happen like we're right back to well i'm not i'm not supporting him you know i'm not actively getting involved yeah but you're not stopping him and i don't know the difference when i'm looking at you between whether you think the same as him or whether you think something different if you're there's no such thing as neutral here i'm afraid when when that comment's been made or that action's been taken there's no such thing as neutral you're either you're either in on it or you're against it and if i can't see that you're against it as far as i'm concerned you're in on it and that adds to the joe's talking about the fear i think these incidents in our lives that we've had and each of us had different

17:38 levels of severity of incidents and i've been thinking about it for this conversation the first time this happened to me a man imposed his sexual wishes on me i was nine i was nine years old and and every time something like that happens it taps back into how i felt as a nine-year-old when a man was on the phone to me who should have been having a responsible conversation and started asking me about what i was wearing and all sorts of questions i didn't understand and so you can hear can you hear what's yeah and nothing really serious has happened to me thank goodness in my life but whenever someone makes an unwanted comment or approach puts themselves in my space it taps back into the nine-year-old girl who was terrified and confused and just devastated by that

18:29 and i think this is a fear that most men just we can't grasp because um i was actually saying this to johnny off air last week um when i i grew up in on a council estate in walthamsto it's not particularly nice place and so as i was walking down the road you you'd know how to hold yourself how to carry yourself not to make you not a target but to make you less of a target than other people around you because i'd be looking around thinking okay there's a there's that that that bin shed there there's a trees over there the bushes here there's an alleyway there knowing who's going to attack me but even then the worst i ever thought would happen to me

19:09 would be someone would stab me rob me beat me up that sort of thing at no point was anything sexual ever anywhere close to my mind and so it's just not something that i ever grafted or ever have had to grapple with and so it it's a it's something i have to consciously consider rather than just accepting that this is just a normal part of living and i i can't say it sounds bloody exhausting yeah you put just walk around a council estate estate and doing that, keeping yourself safe from

19:48 like one to nine of things is exhausting enough. But to add on a whole nother level of things, God, I just, the physical and emotional and mental drain on that must be astounding. It is. And obviously, we are, as you've really poignantly mentioned at the beginning, Liz, we've been out of this situation for a long time. You know, students, classic examples, so many students are attacked. So few report it. So many female students. So, yeah, it is. It's petrifying. And I think, you know, sadly, we've got gotten sort of a bit used to it, which isn't right.

20:29 But yeah, it's horrible. And it's, you know, it makes many parents petrified when their daughters go out for the first time. You know, I mean, Johnny, you're a dad of a daughter now. It just, knowing how vulnerable girls can be, you know, it's horrible. And this was this woman at nine o'clock at night. I think, I think there's a, there's a, you know, we do hear of women being attacked and like early hours and that kind of thing. And it's still not, obviously, it doesn't make it right at all. I think because the nature of the time and

21:10 then at the shock of it, I think, I think as someone pointed out, and I think I got what he was trying to say, but he said, well, it was, you know, there's no one around in lockdown. It's like, oh, how unlucky. It's like, obviously, it wasn't a complete stranger, was it? But I just think actually it's really a fundamental part of going out on a night. It actually features in most women's night out. It's part of the norm, and that isn't right on many levels. It's not right for us to accept it, but it's not right for it to be that way. And I think, you know, I loved your question, Liz, like how many men actually have not addressed, not jumped up, not said anything.

21:55 And, you know, we're not asking for you to completely empathize. You couldn't unless you've been attacked yourself, or you've been sexually assaulted, or you felt vulnerable. So your vulnerability, Glenn, you were mentioning, right? If you create that emotion in yourself again, and then I would say times it by 10 because ultimately, when you're looking at sexual abuse as well, then it's a whole not another level of abuse, obviously. And where, you know, some people say, oh, women are oversensitive. It's just blokes being blokes. Like, you know, it's like, give us a break kind of thing.

22:37 And I don't want to go back and cover the questions we've already covered, but do women talk about this between themselves? Like, if you took an average group of 10 women, is it going to be like it's rare that someone hasn't had something bad happen to them? And then, you know, we've on this spectrum sort of thing from on a night out, what is expected? From, yeah, I'd like to be chatted up, but no, I don't want to have my ass pinched or someone, you know, worse, I don't know, rubbing themselves against me on the dance floor kind of thing. Like it's, it's, it's where does that line fall between someone being oversensitive and actually, no, none of that's welcome.

23:23 So you asked a couple of questions there. Do women talk about it between themselves? So the answer is yes and no. Like, you know, yes, well, if someone wants to share, and we normally talk about it and kind of, oh my God, what's, you know, if it was a night out, oh my God, what a sleaze bag. If it's been a fear event, we're very, I would say, with me and my friends, we're very unlikely to bring it up in a group because it's terrifying. We might confide in a friend and talk about it one-on-one until hashtag me too. That's like a line crossed. That's like a lot of fun. Yeah, there is a bit of a line.

24:05 Well, just, you know, then I'd have to, even with my friends, right? And then, and then I can't imagine translating this into the courts if you had to take something further. Or when I've had an investigation at work, for example, like even then, you're answering questions about something where you have to go back to it and you have to go over it and you have to relive it. And I don't want to. I don't want to relive it. I don't want to think about it. And I don't want to experience those feelings again. So I would say talking about it amongst women does happen when a woman feels she wants to or can share. There's no like, I don't have friends where we have agreements, you know, like, well, this is all right, but that isn't, or anything like that.

24:46 Different women are different. I'd also say, I don't know, we have to get onto nights out versus other parts of life because nights out, you know, there are types of nights out, right, where you go out to flirt, to interact, maybe even to find someone to have sex with, who knows? But there are also plenty of other aspects of life where this shit is happening. And like, I grope on a dance floor is one thing. I grope on a tube is a completely another level for me in terms of what we're talking about because, like, because you're not expecting it at all going about your business, right?

25:32 Or on a plane. I was on a plane. Airplane. Can you believe it? I was on a bus, actually. For me, it was. A friend was on the cube. Johnny mentioned the cube. The stories are so long. Johnny, everyone, every woman. Yeah, and by the way, the stats are wrong, aren't they, Joe? The stats are wrong when they say it 78% of women who've experienced it. No, it's everybody. And lots of us have shut these things out and forgotten. And until hashtag me too, we didn't really count them. We suppressed them, we put them away because it's the shit you had to deal with just to be brushing past you or groping or rubbing themselves up. Like, what, like, what?

26:13 I think it's an important question because some men will hear this and be like, wow, I didn't know that happened. And I'd hope that some men will hear this and go, like, yeah, I do that. And I didn't realize they knew, right? So, um, what do they do? What is it? Is I mean, how lurid is it? You know, all of the above. Virtually every night when you go out drinking and you go to sort of some busy bars, it's like a norm. It's so, so regular. And obviously, as the night goes on and more alcohol, alcohol is definitely has a massive part to play. And again, it's going to be interesting coming out of this. We're still in these restricted times.

26:54 But I think you said it so well, Liz, that we're having time to reflect on everything right now. And this is one of the things. It's the norm, Johnny. It happens all the time. If you're out in bars, in pubs, busy, you know, then sort of especially into evening, dark, you know, when you're in, it just, it's the norm. It's, it's groping, it's rubbing, it's feeling different parts of your body. It's the comments, it's literally all the above. And obviously, to then varying degrees, depending how late it gets and where, you know, I mean, I'm so mindful of where I take myself, you know, where I walk, even in a club.

27:34 If I see, you know, if I'm there's just like really careful, it's like a constant radar of, you know, keeping safe. And that's running out socially with girls. Well, even just with girls. But that brings back into context not all men, right? Because it is easy. One of the things I didn't do that. I didn't rape anyone, but then you might scale and say, do you know what? If that's like, well, what I'll do is I'll rub against her, then she'll think that I like her, and then we'll end up having a conversation. Yeah, just, you know what? Just walk up to me and smile and start a chat.

28:14 Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, if you want to interact, well, if you start up by, I don't know, if you start off by rubbing against me, you're really going to rub me up the wrong fucking way. Ain't going to go any further. It isn't anyway, but let's be really interesting. I don't think it's about anything further. It's just about sex or physical contact. That's the thing to bear in mind. These aren't guys that are looking for a date or, you know, they're not looking to chat to you and buy you a drink. They're looking for physical contact. And I think there's one, there's almost like this line that gets crossed of, do I have a right to do this to this woman?

28:57 Yes, aren't they? Basically, they're taking. Yes, I do. It's fine for me to do this. There's no problem with me doing this. I'll get away with it. It's not an issue. And I will cross this line. And it's just about self-gratification. And it's about abuse and it's about taking advantage of a woman. It's nothing more than that. It's just there and then taking what they want. So that I think it's really that simple. And I obviously have dealt with this on all the different aspects of this: being an ex-police officer, being on the receiving end. being a friend, watching a friend being roped. You know, I have stuck up with so many friends who've been roped, attacked.

29:41 I've nearly been attacked myself defending a friend who was attacked by a roper. It's grim. I guess one of the only ways I heard it described that kind of resonated with some of the people I was talking to was if you had a bowl of MMs and you can say, right, some none or all of these MMs might kill you. Yeah. You don't know. They might absolutely all be fine. And they probably are going to be all because they're MMs, but one of them might kill you. Would you still eat that? Probably not. And so when you're going into a nightclub, then it's the same sort of thing in terms of you just don't know what's going to happen.

30:22 Yes, Glenn. And once someone's told you that about MMs, you go to another place and they've got a bowl of MMs. How do you feel about MMs? Yeah. Right? It's not just that bowl of MMs. It's not just that club. It's not just that night. So yeah. It's not all M's. Yeah, not all men, but those that one did that week, that one did last week, and that bloke on the bus did. So how do you think I feel? So the bigger picture of this is: is men and women working together, living together, enjoying each other's company as friends, just being good colleagues, falling in love? Like the whole

31:08 complexity of men and women getting along, there's an undercurrent to it, which it seems like men and women are getting actually further apart in their understanding of each other and in their ability to work effectively together. And men, you know, some men's attitudes and resistance towards women, you know, born out of whatever's gone on in their life, quite often, if I speak for myself and what's activated me, experiences on an individual level can then have you say, oh, well, women are like this or women are like that. But way bigger than that is an inherent undercurrent of women feeling uncomfortable around men.

31:50 And then everything that comes after that is kind of tainted by it. It's me like a massive knot underneath just people getting along and you know and feeling happy together. It has blown my mind to be honest. I think you've got to bear in mind that this, as me too, did, but this has sparked. I haven't thought about this for such a long time. And not just because of lockdown. You know, I've dealt with my issues, my trauma, my past, and I've got to a much happier and stronger place emotionally and on a trusting point.

32:27 So I don't think it's necessarily as bleak as it looks. I think actually, personally, and I know you and I work in similar fields, Johnny, I think women and men and understanding masculine, feminine energies within us, more men are coming out and showing themselves as vulnerable. And I think actually we're getting closer. I think sadly, this terrible and tragic story has really fired up this element of what it's like to be a woman and what it's like to walk down a street and not feel safe. And obviously we've gone down a bit of a path here talking about social environments.

33:07 But by and large, you know, I haven't, but I think that for me personally, the tragedy is that when I do go out, and if I go out and I'm going to sort of really busy bars, really busy pubs that I'm not familiar with, which doesn't happen too often anymore, but can still happen, I will be on a on a radar. I get my radar out and I'm constantly thinking, and where are we watching? Therefore, not enjoying myself and therefore not relaxing. And I would say, with all my friends I go out with, we will all go through this processing system when we're out, mindful and watching out for this behavior because we've all suffered from it.

33:48 But we're not there judging. We're not there going, oh, oh, yes, he's going to be, you know, it's not like that. It's just that we raise our awareness to be considerate of actually there might be someone who is there as the night goes on. And obviously, certain bars, certain pubs, you know, a certain chain of hubs that you could say you want to avoid. You know, you could be quite specific about it, really. But it can happen. It can happen in bloody Chelsea, let alone downtown Brighton. It can happen anywhere, unfortunately. But we're not really judging. I don't want it to sound like we're going in looking for the method.

34:26 But I just, I think it's important to get it in perspective. perspective that it's something women do go through and consider when we are supposed to be out relaxing and having a good time. And like you say, it feels like it's drummed into from such an early age. I'm petrified. I'm petrified. I've got two girls and two boys. And my oldest son, he's 14. He'll just go out on his bike with his mates and he'll go off riding down a park and playing football and doing these things. And you know what? Nothing kind of rings in the back of my head. I know he's probably not going to get in trouble. If he does, then worst case scenario, there'll be some Haji Baji and that'll be it and it'll be fine.

35:09 But so far, so good. My oldest daughter's 16. Every time she leaves the house, even if she's just going to walk to her friends, she uses WhatsApp live location and she takes a picture of herself, what she's wearing and her shoes, so that if anything happens to her, they've got that live that day recent photo of her. So I've drilled into all of them, but she's taken that on board. And it's kind of just become, I feel like I shouldn't have to do this. This isn't because anything's happened to her in that way. She has. She has been cat called out of moving cars. She's called me where she's not felt safe and those sort of things. So far, I'm not aware of anything more serious than that happening.

35:52 That's bad enough. But she, just from those early little things, that's already imprinting on her. It's imprinted on her since she has been young in a way that my boy has never even considered. And I don't subscribe to this idea that you can only understand this if you've got daughters or if you've got a mum or a sister. For me, that's absolute bullshit. You should be a decent human being and you should be able to understand that this is something that goes on. But it is petrifying as a dad to a daughter that that's something she's already having to deal with. Well, and you've answered the very first question: is why the woman feels more vulnerable?

36:35 You've identified as a dad why she's more vulnerable without really probably consciously thinking about it. But she is, but I just want to bring you back to the point that you made. And again, it's your partner with the problem and the solution. But she is doing all these actions in case she's attacked. So she is knowing before she's even going out the door, there's a chance of her being attacked from a mindset point of view, from an energetic point of view. That girl is going out with that in there, whether it's a thought that's this big or that big. And that is heartbreaking or horrifying. And so we have to come back to what is the solution?

37:17 How do we change this? And these kind of conversations, you know, it sounds like for Liz too, this is like, geez, I've had this conversation a thousand million times with men. You know, what we're again fed up with, what the point of all this is, we are done with this. Men sort it out. And I, you know, Johnny knows I work very much in equality of parliament, group called 50-50 Parliament. For me, it's really simple. Whilst there's mostly men sat around the table making decisions in policing and governance, men will not deal with this because they don't know they don't have access.

37:56 No judgment, guys, but you don't. You don't know what it's like, like you've just said. And, you know, I think that is the reality. So women need to be at the table making the decisions too. So men, what I said to my friend the other day, he said, what can I do for you, Joe? How can I help? And I said, vote for women. Vote for women in your local politics and vote for women on national politic level. Get women around the tables making these decisions and you will be starting to open up and create more of an even conversation, let alone even addressing these huge issues of safety on the streets.

38:35 But can I throw in then and then go at the grassroots level? So yes, in leadership and in politics and in governance, but on a day-to-day basis, I know, I know, I'm certain there are blokes out there who in the last 10 days have either wished, you know, celebrated women for International Women's Day or bought someone flowers and chocolates for Mother's Day or sent a card to a woman. And in the same 10 days, they've catcalled someone or they've, you know, made a comment that someone can hear or they've done some of the things we're talking about, the little things, or worse.

39:11 And I think we have to start also looking at the double standard of exactly what you called out, Glenn, which is the right thing for you to be calling out because it's what you're aware of. But, you know, there are women in my life I'm close to and I treat them like this. And then there are women. women. And I think that's that part of the issue is that the lack of realization of the sort of double standards of how we're treating how men are treating women. I'm going to say how men are treating women. And so, you know, if you're one of those blokes, then you know, maybe, maybe just buy someone some extra flowers and don't say the cat, don't say the comment again.

39:50 Because I know I'd rather I'd have, I'd have, I'd, I'd love, I'd much rather give to me would be knowing I wasn't going to have to deal with any of that shit for the rest of my life rather than the biggest freaking box of chocolates you can find, you know, like it's meaningless shit. It's meaningless. I just think it's more. I think there's so much more that we can do, even on those little scales. When was the last time, as a bloke, and I'm talking to the dads who are watching this, when was the last time any of you called out one of your mates when he said something sexist or he said something that was off-kilt or in that way? Because we don't do it. It's just like, oh, yeah, it's just banner in it. But it's that low-level acceptance.

40:31 Just even those jokes and those things. I'm not saying you shouldn't have humor and you shouldn't be able to muck around. That's one thing. But you've got to know, there's lines to cross. And even if all you're doing is calling out the worst bits that you come across, that's a start. And then you can dial it down from there. But little things, just calling them out constantly, that's something we can do right now. And I just think blokes are just so, oh, well, you know, this is just a massive problem. I can't do anything about it. And you know what? We'll let the politicians and we'll let this people and we'll let that group sort it out.

41:07 Like, bollocks, you can do something yourself. I think the test, the test, lit the test is just to, for a guy to, you know, and if you've got a daughter, even better. If you haven't, you have to imagine you've got a daughter or you've got a sister. And if that comment was made to your sister, would you be happy about it? Because that I don't, you know, it's not, there's no grey area here. It's black or white. Fundamentally, as humans, we know when we cross the disrespectful line, let alone the really positively verbally abusive line. We know what that line is if we can feel it intrinsically within us. We can tell within us when it feels disrespectful.

41:48 And we can tell when it's feeling a complimentary and a kind and a nice comment towards someone. We can feel that. I could say that about your fleece you're wearing. You know, I could just say, you know, it's a very, it's a, it's a grey fleece. It's not a great place. Or I could say you look like a pilot ship. Which is more likely. That's more personal, but I'm being ridiculous, but that is more personal. And actually, it's derogatory to you because you look fine, you look good. And that's me judging you because you're wearing a fleece. And that is, in a way, a very low level, very, you know, very watered down version of what women are receiving.

42:29 So I'm afraid there isn't that middle area. You guys have got to start changing your language. It comes from language. It comes from what we say. What we say is what we think and what we think we act on. You know, it's just reciprocal. And so it has to start with language and words and how we say what we say. And you could be, there could be dads watching this with their sons watching TV. What are you saying when a gorgeous woman comes up? And just because she's wearing a bikini, I don't give a damn. I don't care where she's wearing like next to nothing. That does not give you permission to be disrespectful towards her. She's a woman with a gorgeous body.

43:12 She could be naked. It doesn't matter what she's wearing, what she's not wearing, how much makeup she's got, whether she's had, you know, boob job, a lip job, whatever. It does not matter. You are disrespecting that woman as a representative of female species. It is wrong. It's an interesting area to look at there because if I see an attractive woman, and my daughter, she's openly bisexual, and she'll show me, I really, look at this video. Isn't she attractive? For me, I'm okay to say, yes, she is attractive. I think commenting and saying, I find that woman attractive, no matter what she looks like,

43:53 for me, that's fine because that's a simple fact. And that's me saying, I'm not, I don't, I think most guys think, oh, well, what you're saying, I can't say I fancy someone, I can't do this, I can't do that. You can, you just, you just, there's a way of doing it, you know, and it's, it shouldn't be hard. Don't be disrespectful and don't impose that comment on them when they're not asking for it. Yeah, don't put it into their space when it. hasn't been invited. I think my golden rule is never say something that you wouldn't want said to you in the prison showers. It is a joke, but actually, it's exactly the same thing because that's the closest most men will ever in their head wrap themselves around the fact that they might end up sexually assaulted.

44:42 And that's the only way I can get it through it. That's a good one. That's a good one. It's not a good one. It's awful because it does happen. I know. But it gets through. It does. The thing that I think every bloke could do is to start to just, as Joe's saying, tune up to language, to words, to interactions, and just start with, is this okay? Just start there with a question to yourself. Is this okay? Is this okay? How does it, how might I feel in that? Like, you'll be able to feel in yourself because it'll feel a bit different to be going, whoa, you know, like, oh, we mind whatever about the waitress, as opposed to waiting until she's gone and going, she's a bit of all right.

45:24 You know, that, those for me, are two different things already. Yeah. And you know the difference. So is this okay? And if it's not okay, am I going to a participate? And if I'm not going to participate, what am I going to do to change it? Because not participating isn't enough to stop this happening because it's so commonplace and because it's so accepted. I totally agree. And one of the things I was going to head in my mind was: would you be okay with your nan, would you say it around a dinner table with your nen there? And the thing is, then I thought, okay, well, how about your mum? And you said earlier, how would you feel if someone said that about your sister or your daughter?

46:01 How come all of those acceptable things are all women? I would love it if, so I know that I've been excluded from WhatsApp groups and so on because I've called shit out. Mostly it's been, you know, either Islamophobic or homophobic or stuff like that. But I've been excluded. And I know I'm not involved in lots of conversations that people that I've met in the past have had because of that. So I would love it if someone was to say, look, would you say that if your dad was there? Probably not. And because I want more men to be part of that holding accountable nature of conversation. And it shouldn't just be, would you say that in front of your mum? Because that's only half the battle.

46:40 Yeah. That's the societal change where, I don't know, however many years ago you had comedians on TV that would just bosh out a racist joke, just, you know, chalky this or nicknogs or, you know, like, like, which would be jarring beyond belief now. And yet it was on Saturday night TV, what, 80s, 70s, you know, 80s, probably, Jim Davidson and the like. We're talking about a societal level of change for that to really happen. And I was quite challenged by some of the, you know, what was it? Some of the banners, like, what are you telling to teach your boys or to educate your boys?

47:23 Your sons, yeah. Your sons. Yeah. And when you see those pictures, it's very easy for a man to go to the extreme, to go to the rape or the abduction, you know, to like to go easy to go to extremes. But this conversation is showing us that actually this scale of educate your sons or not in my group of mates or not on my watch is we're talking about real everyday levels of respect and it's not even about compassion it's just about decency really um and uh

48:03 and having having the having the common decency to want someone to feel okay to feel happy to enjoy their work to feel great on a night out to i mean i can i can just see the difference between someone stopping and being like oh my gosh you're beautiful um enjoy your evening is it's way different than rubbing your knob against them as you stumble past them i mean blimey one will completely ruin a woman's evening and maybe the other one will make their evening i mean that's that's chalk and chew that's as that's as different as it as it can be um yeah and because because one thing i

48:43 want to just mention here is because actually what we're calling calling calling is out is predatory behaviour yeah um i'm pretty you don't just you just don't start as a rapist you know i i've interviewed rapists they don't start as rapists they they start with a pattern of predatory behaviour and that's why it's really important to call it out to recognize it women to report it because it all starts on a lower level it starts with the luring starts with the comments it starts with the with the kind of the um the um slight attacking the hands or the the you know the the obsession and then and then it's that the the boundaries go um and it's worse and then it goes from one step to another to another

49:29 so you know and and at that it so it so jove why why don't women report those first things because they won't they don't think they'll be believed and because they're totally embarrassed they don't want to relive it they don't they don't think they'll be believed they're totally embarrassed and they don't want to relive it and horrifying things that can happen to a woman is to be sexually assaulted to then have to go and explain it to your friend is bad enough to then have to go to explain it someone you never know and it likely be a male officer you're it's getting better women generally are allowed are brought with female officers are generally brought in but you everyone knows that you go down that

50:07 path there's it's going to be a long path and the amount of times you'll then have to explain the story of how you were abused assaulted is hideous and thankfully again you don't necessarily need to be disclosed who you are you can give your evidence without being um without being named or without being seen but it's again it's getting better but it's taking too long for women to be believed actually i'm just going to say sexual assault victims because i know this happens for men too and it happens for burma right but it takes way too long still for women to be believed and what they have to prove to be

50:47 to be uh be believed that they were actually raped it's disgusting our law is disgusting in this country still it's so behind and it shouldn't be and so it holds women back why bother why bother putting yourself through all that pain embarrassment trauma your family your sisters your mum will your dad believe you will your mum believe you put yourself through all of that when actually realistically you know the chances of anything actually happening um and if you add to the the equation you've probably had a couple of wines oh that means you were up for it you might you probably didn't know what you were doing oh you were probably like just having a good time

51:27 we've heard too many stories of this happen so it stops women from taking that step but i implore any woman watching this or any anyone knowing any woman who watches this we must change this because how are you expected to know men anyone how bad this is unless we report it so be brave get someone with you get someone to support you and actually take that really brave step because you're not helping just yourself you're helping women for the future and that's what we haven't really done and i all of that and at the at the my minor infractions end of the scale of predatory behaviors of the kind we've been talking about into which i include cat calling groping comments made you know stuff that's the kind of stuff that's we've all experienced that's happened to me you don't

52:20 you know consider the societal context that's telling me it's my fault that that happened that happened that bloke came onto you in front of all of his colleagues in the work in a work setting because you look you made yourself look really nice what's he supposed to do he can't help himself that's a societal content i don't grab you on the bus because you're wearing a short skirt you you know they followed you because you walk down a dark alley and and it is not your fault if you're a woman it is not your fault it is not our fault but that is the societal context into which this sits at whatever level of the scale we're on yeah designed by men designed by men yeah spoken out

53:00 by men enforced by men and perpetuated by women who've been taught that too right because we hear other we i have heard women say oh but look at what she was wearing don't give a what she was wearing you know and when you hear you're not gonna get you're not going out like that dressed like that you know you just got your skirts too short your top's too like too short for what too low for what too low for a man not to be able to keep his hands to himself why that's not you that's not the fault of the skirt wearer that's the fault of the hands and the brain behind them

53:43 yeah well people men can get quite activated by the by that you know that sort of men men designed this men society men you know um what you were just saying there there joe what what i mean quite true johnny yeah historically our political system our our schools everything's been designed by men because when it was designed that's who designed things so you were rather than saying men are the problem there, it's really saying that the problem is it hasn't been redesigned for the world we live in today.

54:24 It's not fit for purpose right now. It's not inclusive. It wasn't designed for a 2021 way of life. I'm not trying to say any wrong. I'm just sort of approaching it in a slightly different way for people that might be like about that. It's actually recognizing, because some men are, Joe, some men are activated by that sort of, oh, there's women banging on again about women in this and women's. Oh, well, I'm not going to apologise. I'm just stating the fact. And, you know, I think we also need to be careful of the fact that I am not going to apologise for that because it actually incenses me and it drives me completely nuts that we're not allowed to.

55:04 Again, I had this discussion recently on LinkedIn with someone. That is a fact. It was men that created these laws. They were designed by men. So, you know, just because I'm stating that as a fact, as you could state, women were always nurses. It was women that have been nursing. It's just a fact. Obviously, one is much more accusatory because we're talking about. But, you know, that kind of attitude to attack women for stating facts that men have actually ruled and governed our country is in itself an issue.

55:40 Because what they're trying to do then is actually backtrack, sideline, and actually throw it back at the woman and create the aggression to the woman and say, well, she shouldn't be bad-mouthing all men. I never said all men. I said it was men that designed that created the rules. And I see this all the time on social media. And it absolutely boils my blood that when that is that is how our country has evolved. That is who is still by look at our current government. Look at how many men are sat at that table. This is at that table. So that is what needs to change. And I'm only stating facts.

56:23 And when that tries to be flipped around, that's something not about that. Let's get back to the topic. And I think that's something that I almost, I won't say I don't disagree with something you said earlier about voting for women to be able to change the laws and so on. I think it needs to go a lot further than that. And I think you said there just about the people sitting around the table. It's not just about getting women into things like parliament. For me, it's about getting women into senior positions within the parliaments and within decision, within all decision-making processes.

56:59 Because it's nothing, if all, if even if you had a 50-50 parliament, if that top table is still dominated by men, then they're still going to be prioritising men's issues. It's a subconscious thing as much as a conscious thing. There needs to be equality at the top table, not just at every table in there. But I think that's almost a side thing. There needs to be 50-50 parliament and 50-50 in number 10 because number 10 govern our nation. So whoever's in number 10, whatever colour they happen to be, that needs to be an equal setting as well. Totally agree. Totally agree. We need to get a 50-50 parliament to start with to run any hope of having a 50-50 number 10. Because otherwise, it's never going to happen.

57:43 And at the moment, it's going to look like it's going to take another 50 years at least. We don't want to wait 50 years to be making change. And that's why I think these sort of discussions are really key because there's going to be dads watching this and they will start thinking, even if out of this whole thing, we just get one dad one time to say, that's not cool, man, then that's a start. And it's not a good enough start, but it's a start. And I think every man needs to start thinking, what the hell can I do today, tomorrow, the next day after that? And part two is to encourage every female, every woman that they know, or every female that they know, when anything happens, they must tell them it must be addressed.

58:24 They must report it. You can always take yourself out of a case later on. But until a case is reported, it's not passed as a crime. It doesn't get a number and it's not counting. And obviously, where it is and the environment, you know, and what, because, you know, lot could happen at school, wherever it happens. It mustn't happen. It must be reported. So have that difficult conversation with your daughters. If anything happens, you must tell me. And I promise you, I will not judge you. I will not be just please tell me at the very least so I know so that we can do something and encourage women and girls to really speak.

59:04 speak up about all of this. And where it's below the level of criminality, then speak it out, then encourage the women in your life to speak it out to you. Yeah, and in a way, and hear it in a way which says, It's shit that that happened to you. And I'm hearing that that happened to you, and I feel bad about that. Let's talk about it. Not, you know, the kind of responses I've had, thankfully, not from the men in my family, but from friends who've gone, oh, you're that. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. People don't do things like that. Yeah, you're a strong woman, Liz. That's not what happened. You know, I'm sure you're misinterpreting it. Or, you know, no, just

59:51 hear and listen and witness and say, that's shit. How are you feeling? Yeah. And do tell me if I'm, but for me, it's all about also starting that really young. Yeah. She was 15 and it was nine-year-old daughters walked to the shops last year. And on the way back, it was a couple of lads. I say lads because they're like 14, 15 years old, on bikes, went past, started giving them some abuse. It wasn't sexual, but it was aggressive. Thankfully, my oldest daughter was fairly bolshy and she gave a lot back.

1:00:33 But when they got home, after I'd see if I could have a word with them myself, the whole point was trying to make them feel safe and secure and happy to talk about it and not bottle it up and not start getting nervous about it again. And it wasn't the case of me then saying, well, you're not going out to the shops again because someone might attack you. Bollocks to that. Well, you'll go to the shops. We'll log this with the police. So they've got a record of this. So that actually, if everyone's logging this stuff, the police can then allocate resources to deal with it. And we'll make sure that things are, we'll try and make things safer for you because it shouldn't be about them trying to change their lives. It should be about life changing around them to make sure they're okay to live their lives. So I love that.

1:01:16 And the other thing you can help the women in your life with is there's an instinctive reaction we have as human beings, but it happens more to women in these situations when we feel threatened, which is we freeze. We freeze. We can't sit. And that's how men get away with a grope. And that's, you know, it's because we freeze. We don't slap them. We, you know, and that's how men get away with more because it's protection. So what you can do, I actually did a, I did a course in this to help me with this, is you can help the women in your life to practice their reaction and their response in a situation where someone asks them an inappropriate question or makes a comment they don't want to hear.

1:01:57 You know, so inappropriate, you can practice with them, put them in the right situation and just kind of practice by giving them an inappropriate comment and give them a chance to have a think about what are the things I could say to that. Like, what makes you think it's okay to say that about me? Saying anything breaks the freeze, actually. But I do think if more of us had practice at handling those smaller moments, they would be called out more. They would be drawn to men's and people's attention more. And we would ourselves feel better about them because we'd actually, rather than just letting it happen to us, I'm putting my fingers up for anyone who's listening, letting it happen to us because we didn't say, why didn't you do anything?

1:02:40 Why didn't you hit back? Why didn't you speak back? Because I froze. Well, let's practice not freezing because there's muscle memory there. So you can help with that. I love that, Jo. Sorry, Liz. Like it's a response mechanism. Like you said, their muscle memory, like having some quick replies back because bullies don't like being bullied or predator wouldn't expect. Yeah, but a predator wouldn't expect someone to react. And it's not like you want to pass it down the line. But if you react and put them in their box, they'll be like, oh, no, I'm not going to go near her.

1:03:20 She's not going to just be submissive and let me dominate her. Yes. And the more women who react, the more it's apparent and obvious that this isn't appropriate, isn't welcome and isn't fair as well. Because what we're talking about very much is like the pub scenario, really, aren't we? And actually, it's when there's a group of guys, and actually, I'd say the odds are that there's one guy that's doing those actions and the others have no idea. So again, it's about, you know, guys or it could be a mixed group of people and a guy calls out a woman or gropes a woman.

1:03:55 It's also about calling that out when you see it, whether you're a man or a woman watching it. it. And I would, you know, I've had friends before saying, Well, I didn't want to get involved, men friends, you know, oh, I didn't, oh, I know, I just thought I just, I thought, I thought you could handle this out. No, stick up for me. Look at the size of me and look at the size of that. Stick up for me, please, or at least offer, offer your help and ask me if I'd like it. And I will always say yes. I know, I appreciate because I've also had this comment back. Oh, well, I went to help a woman, she didn't want any help. Oh, yeah, when was that? Oh, five years ago. Okay, so now you're never going to help a woman if she's in trouble because some woman said no, forget it, and she was drunk.

1:04:36 And it was actually a boyfriend. Oh, God. I've heard all the responses. I think some guys are stupidly scared because, and the mindset is: look, he's a bloke. That woman's called him out or something. They're having an argument, but he's never going to hit her because she's a woman. But if I step in, he's going to wallop me one because I'm a bloke. I think that's one of the fear things that some guys have got. And I don't know, Johnny, you have experienced that yourself, but there's this mindset of I don't want to put myself at risk. And so, you know, he's the risk between them, while it's all verbal and that sort of stuff is fine. And what it doesn't do is do anything for that woman. And at the end of the day, if I get a punch in the face, that bruise will heal in a week or two.

1:05:22 Whereas if she is not even saying that anything else further happens, but that's again just going to chip away and chip away and chip away and chip away until she just stops going out because you can't be bothered with hassle. I'd like to ask you, Grace, a question. Have you ever had your bits fondled? Yes. How did it feel? It was surprising. I mean, I had by both gay men and by women, not often. And I'm not saying that this is a commonplace occurrence by any, but the fact that it's kind of rare, it's stuck in my mind obviously then shows how rare it is for a guy to have gone through that and that it's stuck in my mind one or two incidents.

1:06:05 But yeah, it was just an absolute shock and kind of bullshi women coming up to me, obviously on a like a hen party or something. How many times then? How many times? Four times. Thank you. Johnny, how many times? A couple of times in mixed clubs. I've been, you know, some kind of interaction with a gay guy or two gay guys at one event where, by the way, I was wearing a gold cat suit. Totally asked. It doesn't matter. What are we wearing, Johnny? We've established that listening to you. You've got a societal chit in my hand as well. I'm trying to imagine that, Johnny.

1:06:47 I'm trying not to imagine it. Picture, glinting picture. Liz, how many times? But just to say, I didn't feel that intimidated by it, but I'm quite a big bloke. It was shock. It was shock, actually. And it was probably later on that I thought about it. In the moment, I was like, whatever. And it was later on that I thought, that was bloody weird. What did they ask me to do? Yeah. And that's the thing. Even when it's happened with gay guys, I've still not felt the fear. I felt the surprise and the shock and the what are you doing, mate? That's not cool. But I've never felt fear.

1:07:29 And that is something that I just haven't experienced. There's no way of me ever wrapping my head around the primal levels of fear that would have gone through that if I'd been a woman and it had been a man doing that in a situation. Like a shuddering right through your body or a closing up of your, you know, all your girl bits should be like clenching everything like you wanting to wrap yourself up. I'd imagine just just as a funny, this might be inappropriate, I don't know, but there's a Richard Pryor sketch where he talks about, he talks about, he talks about women, they're being raped, the vagina should lock. He's like, it should lock on. And then he says, I got you, I got you. You know, you're not going to go like just like completely trapped like a like a like a like a praying mantis, like just kind of just men should not be able to get away with this.

1:08:18 Like it shouldn't be possible. It shouldn't that that that that flipping abuse of someone else's body shouldn't you know there's there's nothing that women can do in that in that in that moment if there was they wouldn't do it that was that's that was the where the the flipping the stick the skit ended up like they wouldn't do it if they knew they were going to die at the at the end of it um but let alone getting away with it no it's it's no you know a couple of times so you know um so what the interesting thing that you both described is that you didn't didn't have that vulnerability feeling and that feeling of fear which is obviously in essence that's the difference, you know, that the act is the same on a level, but it's not.

1:09:02 And there's a whole hour and eight minutes talk around that, why women feel vulnerable when we're attacking. Liz, how many times? Of actual physical grabbing or being made to feel that physical grabbing, I can separate out three, and then there are a whole lot more that I just can't, I can't tell you how many. Yeah, I can't tell you. Hundreds. Like there are three that are in places where I really wouldn't have expected it. And then there are just ever so many. And I'm guessing you're similar. Hundreds of times. Yeah. Hundreds. On a plane.

1:09:42 I was talking about like a busy plane. Like you didn't dwell on the point. You just mentioned a plane earlier on. You just, yes. That was that was being touched inappropriately on here, on my top here, top half of me. But the groping is, yeah, hundreds of times and out. And same for my friends, all the same. So just to get it in perspective, so all of this is, you know, as much as we can feel empowered and feel strong, sadly, fundamentally, it kind of is, unfortunately, it does linger, and we have to work hard not to go out in fear.

1:10:23 You know, I think that is unfortunately what we're dealing with here. And I think this has been such a useful conversation just to highlight the differences and validate the challenges. I mean, obviously, sorry, just to finish up coming onto the Sarah Everton situation, obviously there's a whole subject around when you are, sorry, the role of who is attacking and belief and trust, because this was some, you know, this was a police officer. I think, again, that's a whole different show of trust and faith in people and abusive situations.

1:11:04 It is, but even now, I still would say to all my kids, find a police officer. There's no second of hesitation in that because beyond overwhelming majority, I mean, this is like scales of infantism, small numbers of police officers are involved in the worst of things. The overwhelming majority of them are fundamentally amazing individuals who are there to help people. So just because it happened once doesn't mean it would happen again, even though it could. And so I'll always be saying to my kids, trust the police, go to them for help.

1:11:39 Oh, totally. That's another whole conversation. I've had some flipping shocking Facebook chat the other day telling someone to just back off and you know, like, who do they think they are calling police psychopaths and flipping it out of order? Yeah, really. What's been bothering me, sorry, Zlen, is your daughter. And I'm just been while we've been talking, is I've just trying to find, we need to find a better solution for 16-year-old girls to go out by themselves and putting the fear of God into them to get WhatsApp going. And, you know, doing that without fear, is that doable? Is there other? Are there other solutions? I mean, mine are 14. I've got two years before I start going down this road.

1:12:24 So I've done it ever since they were toddlers. And the mindset for me at that age was: look, if you get lost, then a picture of you means that I can, an individual picture of you means that I can show the police this is what they're wearing right now. And so I've always done it from like from toddlers. This is just about if you get lost or if anything happens to you. And it's just always, always, always constantly reinforced. And so I'm lucky enough that that hard work from a young age has now borne out. But yeah, it's still, she still does it. And I will always love her to do it because I want her to feel safe. It's something that she can do as part of a ritual of going out that she can do that.

1:13:08 And she knows that's just a little, it's a little thing she can do that might, that hopefully will never, never be used, but might help in the worst case scenario. I think it's great that you're helping her to look out for herself. And I think to bring it back to where we started the conversation, I think it's just worth observing that on a given night of her going out, it's very unlikely that anything is going to happen to her. Very unlikely. However, on a given day, going about her life, and in my experience, this can just as easily happen in a work meeting as it can on a tube.

1:13:49 tube or on a phone. She is likely to be interfered with by men's opinions, points of view, thoughts, sexual thoughts, and urges and actions. That's going to happen to her, and it's going to happen to her hundreds of times in her life. So, I would say, if you're going to focus on something with her, focus on helping her prepare for that and focus on helping her work out how she and her friends are going to develop an attitude to that. Yeah, I totally don't turn into how upset all of us are about what happened to one out of the 210 women who were murdered in the past year.

1:14:32 We need to be careful. We're not getting obsessed about it as well, because it worries me that we're going to start crossing a line now of like, you know, every time we're going to become again, you know, we're just actually making the problem worse, really, by creating more fear. There's enough fear, you know, in the world anyway, right now. So, I think we've just do more to proactively support it. But, like you say, maybe just, oh, look, let's do the, let's give you this little toolkit and then you've got it. For me, it's numbers. It's always numbers. You know, I was told this as a kid, you know, say, just always hang around in numbers, safety and numbers again.

1:15:16 But, you know, just to stay in pairs, stay in groups, look after each other is what I say to my kids. Just look after each other. And I try not to go down that fear road of because, you know, it's not look after because someone might pull up and pull you into a car. Just look after each other. Just about risk benefit. I almost see these as two separate things that are conflated and overlapping. But one is the extreme, the murder. So, but that's around personal safety. So I've trained my I'll train my children not to go into a pub near the arsenal ground on a day we're playing them in their Spurs kits because that's managing risk. And I'll train my children to act in certain ways around because it's managing risk about the extreme side of things.

1:16:00 But the whole other world of sexual abuse and unwanted sexual attention, that is a whole separate discussion that we need to do more on. And the extremes, frustratingly, annoyingly, they will always happen because people are awful. But we can't live our life just by those extremes, but they can shine a light on all the things that led to that. And these are the things that we can stop. If we can stop one, let's be honest, we can stop one boy from starting that path you were saying about Joe in terms of starting the path towards becoming a rapist. Start challenging them when they're kids, start challenging your mates when they're out, start challenging them before they make those journeys.

1:16:40 And they won't go down those, they're less likely to go down those paths. And I think that's something that we as dads can and should be doing a lot more of what we're doing. Yes, and if we can help, if we can help more girls spend much more time, much longer periods of time, not thinking about this topic because nobody has imposed unwanted sexual attention on them, then that will be a huge positive, not having to have these conversations. And also, I think, you know, I think establishments can take more responsibility because, you know, I could list off, you know, the brands of pubs. I know this is a bit hard to imagine right now, but there are certain types of pubs that actually you get more of this behavior.

1:17:23 These places should be more accountable, more considerate, you know, should encourage good behaviour. You shouldn't have to. However, the other thing I'd like to bring mention on a safety point of view, because obviously this has all started because of Sarah Evard's case, actually, we can all be more aware when we're driving. Instead of being in our own little worlds, you know, when we're driving on the road, just be more aware of, oh, there's a woman walking by herself. Let's notice that and just keep, you know, just keep an eye, be more aware, especially, you know, certain roads are darker, are a bit more, you know, less well lit. And not be, there's definitely a reluctance to get involved. It's in our nation.

1:18:04 It's in our culture. It's a national, you know, terrible thing that we do. It's like, do not get involved. Don't get involved when you can hear arguing next door. You know, I've dealt with so many cases of horrendous situations, which would have been a lot better if people have intervened earlier. So let's lose that worry. When we fear, feel that something is off. We act on it and take action. And it might just be, you know, whatever it is, just notice and just keep an eye out. And we could do that in our cars. We can do that walking down the street. You know, I've heard of cases where women have been attacked and they knew someone. someone was walking behind them.

1:18:46 So they must have seen something, but they didn't do anything because they don't want to get involved. So where does that get us? You know? Awesome. Guys, a conversation like this, it's hard to plan it, hard to decide what you're going to talk about at the start. I hope anyone listening has felt the flow of the conversation. If you've joined us part the way through, then by all means, go back and watch the beginning. The intention for this conversation was for two women to share with the rest of us, the men in particular, what it's like on a day-to-day level to experience the unwanted advances of men, either through unwelcome comments, unwelcome touch, or

1:19:35 rather more predatory, groping and worse. And just to have it as men to realize that it's more than just the extremes. It's more than just women being oversensitive and men bit of banter. It's an everyday adrenaline-inducing fear that doesn't need to exist, that isn't welcome, that is giving women a poorer experience of life. At the very least, a different experience of life to what men have.

1:20:11 And I hope anyone who's taken the time to join us this evening or is watching or listening on the replay or the podcast that that's made a difference, that you can go and share this with other people in your life, that it might make you have a second thought, second guess yourself in any of your own actions, not to make you wrong or to feel guilty, but just to have you think, okay, I'm not going to do that anymore. I didn't realise. I did realize and now I know actually it's not okay. And, you know, and if there is that group, if there is that mate in your group who's always the one, then no more. Don't let him be, oh yeah, that's Bill or whatever. Let's call Bill out on those things that he says and does.

1:20:52 Liz and Joe, thank you. You know, not every woman would have come on and done this this evening. And I really, really appreciate your willingness, your generosity and your femininity in it. It's been wonderful to have you here. Thank you. And Glenn, I appreciate you not leaving me on my own in this because it has been a bit awkward at times. My palms are sweating. But it should do. It should be uncomfortable for men. And that was the intention. So thank you, everybody. Thanks, Johnny. Really great. Thanks, Glad. Great to meet you. Thanks for having the discussion in this way. And thanks, Joe. You're welcome. I'll see you on the other side.