What Women Want Men To Know About Abuse And Sexual Harassment

00:00 In this episode of the Team Superdad podcast, I ask women what they want men to know about abuse and sexual harassment. It's an eye-opening subject that all men need to hear. Roll theme! Welcome to Team Superdad Real dads creating their best lives ever More time More money More fun You are not alone You're on Team Superdad Good evening, welcome. We are Team Superdad Live. This is the podcast yes normally podcasts normally on a Friday it's a lot of fun with the wrap up you might have seen also some of that check-ins or the podcast lives

00:43 What you won't have seen for a while is us doing an expert hangout and that's where we get a group of people together on the live, and we talk about a subject. And yeah there's been some practical subjects before... ...and during Black Lives Matters we talked about being black people like what it is to be a black person and ask questions from a white person's perspective just so that we got an idea of what that really meant And over the last couple of weeks since the Sarah Everard abduction and murder, there's been a lot of heat online. A lot of conversation A lot of upset and as I, it was pushing my buttons just around my divorce and court. And trying to sort out my attitudes towards women which have you know from being someone who had many many female friends to then having a whole load kind of like argh women! It was pushing my buttons so then i went on twitter and i had a look around and i just thought okay what really is going on? And i could see the upset

01:48 The intensity of it all, which got me to just dig a little bit further and then through some conversations with women where I heard you know one of the ladies on tonight she said to me yeah i was crying in my kitchen last week about that and I was like okay. Another lady I asked to come on and do this live with us she said who is quite an active Hey, there we go. I'm just going to be on my own rambling away tonight as you can see we have

02:45 Ladies first. If chivalry is okay! Will Go, Liz Evenden, Joe Baldwin-Chott, mentor author and publisher. And Glen, good old Glen, my pal from A Dating Dad and cohost of The Wrap Up on Friday Good to have you all here this evening Hi Jonnie Hi everyone Good to be here, I'm feeling woefully underdressed. I've come straight from having an afternoon walk and so uh i'm warm but not smart I'm afraid okay well we'll let you off then unless you like peel it off or you got like a tuxedo underneath or something that would be quite a James Bond move I gotta say

03:30 I'm a little bit nervous right here now. People that know me very well know it doesn't normally happen very much about pretty much anything, but this subject matters and we do have... We've made some notes, some sort of idea of the some of the things that we might talk about. Some of them are purposely a little Bloke, dumb. Right? Because maybe it's the everyday stuff that we need to speak about and quite hilariously as well I had to joke to both Liz and Evenden given that the topic tonight is what women want men to know And I'd written a list of what were going to talk about! That was quite funny as well so... It's a long list Jonnie!

04:15 We're not going to cover it, we're not going to cover it all. But you know the most important thing really is that this is just a conversation about the everyday experience of women and the sexual advances that they face from men both welcome and unwelcome And I hope, you know for anyone watching particularly on the replay if you are by the way watching this is such an important subject. I would encourage you and ask you please to just share it around that's got nothing to do about growing Team Superdad or highlighting any of us in other work that we do This is about having more men understand what it is to live as a woman and experience

05:02 Being wolf whistled, being rubbed up against. Being grabbed from behind like and all the extremes that scale can go to I guess for some people it might be uncomfortable and perhaps that's where some important subjects come up as well So i guess what I wanted to start off by asking is The heat online last week was very much about women crying out, enough! Enough. What does enough mean really? Well I think enough means enough of being quiet, enough of putting up with it, enough...enough of just allowing this to exist and living in fear

05:58 Your question earlier was very much what men need to know, but actually it's not necessarily about the groping or the lewd comments. It's actually about the fear because what men need to know is so many women will walk down the street even in daylight and feel fear that is the reality of being a woman on the streets at times by yourself Let alone at night, let alone nine o'clock at night or even later. And that is sadly an outcome of many things but I think you know what the enough comment i think is to do with the fact that we have spent way too long I feel of being firstly silent about what actually happens to us and I think

06:56 Women do not report anywhere near enough of the crap that happens, the assaults, the abuse. We don't report it and I haven't reported everything that's happened to me so i put myself in that pot But also I think enough is enough of feeling and worrying and walking down the street with all those conditions that we are meant to do. Looking out for lights of where someone lives, holding keys in your hand in case someone comes at you so you could stab them, crossing over the road if you see a man ahead... We have been conditioned –we've accepted the conditioning–

07:36 Behave and consider our behavior as a requisite of men's aggressive, abusive and attacking behavior. And I say men because obviously women can attack women too but we're talking about gender tonight. But that is the reality and that is what we've all had enough on actually we shouldn't be feeling like this and we should not have to make these conscious choices Let alone be in the fear. It's twofold, we shouldn't even have to consider all this shit! Let alone BE in the fear... I swore before you Liz! You were like, okay this is much better! Your potty mouth was out! You Southerners! Like a dude from Northside! Good swearing and I think I would kind of elevate it- I'd agree with all that and I'd elevate at level

08:31 I think that the fact that we've had, the past year, nine months of it living in our homes. A lot of us who are fortunate enough to feel safe at home which is not every woman but a lot of us have had a year where we haven't had that fear yeah? We've had a lot of periods of time where we've been...we've had respite from that adrenaline Going around our system and just to bring the fear, like yes it's walking down the street but just imagine you know remember being in a pub? Remember that or a restaurant you know when there are people around. You know an office or workplace just imagine looking around that place and imagine the animal part of your brain

09:11 Guys, being aware that 50% of the people in that space could overpower you physically. And that's true for me despite the fact I lift weights and train and I'm strong it's true! There is a bit at the base of my brain that knows all this time so for me enough has come from... That had a bit of relax you know? For last year there has been a bit of space And actually, why shouldn't that be the case? Why shouldn't I be able to feel like this in more aspects of my life not just when i'm behind a locked door at home. Sorry, go ahead Jo. You guys can have a button because otherwise Liz and I are going to be like this! I totally hear you Liz that whole kind of... Because ultimately most women can be overpowered by man given believe me i've done martial arts, I was a police officer so I know how to defend myself yeah however I think sadly it's the fear that turns that into something that impacts us

10:12 99.9% of men you will ever generally meet won't want to even consider overpowering you, but it's the fact that we've attached that But you don't know which ones are which, do you? By looking. And I think that's been one of the challenges... The not all men people who have been out there That's been their response It's been look i'm not like this none of my friends are like this I would never think about doing that and almost every man out there would never do this therefore it's not all men and I think the response has always

10:50 But all the people who do this are men and we don't know which is which, we don't know who you are. That's a disclaimer that really really packs me off I nearly swore when i didn't ask Peggy That really hacks me off, Glenn. That is completely bloody irrelevant! Absolutely completely totally irrelevant it doesn't matter if you've never considered or done anything or even if you're a group of 25 friends and none of you... It doesn't matter because it happens and it happens mostly to women that's the only thing that should be focused on

11:26 You know, and I've had a friend of mine recently tell me that she told her dad about things happening. And he literally said to Josef no it didn't you never told me! I said that i'd never do that in the forest come on...I'd never do that so how could that happen? And that is another whole level of denial and shielding the reality we're not making it up but can I go a step further But if you don't, and you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. So not all men do this stuff in my experience and to add what Jo just said most men in my experience when it has happened to me in the presence of them do nothing about it

12:15 Nothing about it. In fact, in the best case just kind of shrink into the background and leave me to deal with it. And then so yes not all men do it but I'm pretty sure...I don't know if I am going to throw this challenge out there but you guys and any men listening to this how many have seen or been present When a man you know has treated a woman in a way which is unwanted, harassing. And let's face it this is the spectrum right where at one end there's a catcall and at the other end is rape and they are on the same spectrum

12:54 I'm going to go, I'm gonna break that down a little bit because there's two separate things in what you said. One is how many men have been present and two how many men have known they've been present in that moment? That can be interpreted in a different way. And like you're saying, some men do think it's a catcall or as a waitress walk past just a comment that they know she can hear but is directed at their friends that will be... Yeah I absolutely would Yeah, yeah she's gonna get my number or something like that. A comment that they're going to make to their friends that they can hear... They don't see that as actually on the spectrum. They just see that for want of a better phrase banter and none of their friends are calling them out for it either None of their friends are saying come on man its not cool So they would have been there but they wouldn't have recognized that they were there I suspect. So let's tackle that one right away so here is my theory

13:52 Every person has a space and is entitled to feel safe in that space, and that means not imposed upon by the wishes and thoughts of other people in a way that affects them. And so that's a perfect example – that comment you know in the restaurant about The Waitress, he knows she can hear! This is the key I'm not saying don't have conversations, you know. Do what you like on your own time... well no, don't actually because there's probably lines you shouldn't be crossing but let's not go there for now this is about kind of in public in the presence of women For me, he knows she can hear. He is therefore imposing his thoughts on her with no idea of whether she wants them welcomes them or is interested in them and that's on the line for me That's part of that scale I was talking about Because they're derogatory in their demeaning and they're sexist and they're puerile and they're misogynous and-and-and One thing to be commenting is like you know what an attractive woman

14:52 That is a whole different comment to, oh she's going to get my number or you know she always... No it's good isn't it? She's hot I'm gonna shag her. Let's be crude about that kind of comments right but what does that feel like? A lot of those words Jo are great and they're the proper labels for it but on a basic level what does that feel like? You feel small, you feel... it makes you feel completely disrespected, unvalued. It actually subjectifies you. You just become literally a physical presence in a female form. It's unnerving, it can scare you because then you immediately feel vulnerable obviously depending on environments especially

15:48 But you'll feel vulnerable. It's like an unphysical attack, non-physical attack actually is what it is because what you're hearing as a woman is that man has got this eye on you That man has got an intention, whatever it is even if it's a slight intention or imaginary intention. An imaginary intention and judgment on you and therefore if you add into the fact obviously most women as we know could be outpowered by a man or they could make any advance he's surrounded by his mates makes even worse

16:26 Because then if they're supporting that comment from you, from me and I have been in an abusive situation with a group of men. This is one of the most horrid moments my life So all of that just, it absolutely demeans you to nothing. I mean, for people who use these powers... Well, I'm guessing it's not just that they're actively supporting it even if they're not challenging it then now it's giving tacit implicit support. That is support! That's my point exactly. If they're not challenging it, they are allowing it down the drain And in allowing it to happen, like we're right back to well I'm not supporting him you know. I'm not actively getting involved yeah but you're not stopping him and i don't know the difference when i'm looking at you between whether you think the same as him or whether you think something different if there's no such thing as neutral here

17:18 I'm afraid when that comment's been made or that action has been taken, there is no such thing as neutral. You're either in on it or you're against it and if I can't see that you are against him, as far as I am concerned, you are in on it and that adds to the... Jo was talking about fear. I think these incidents in our lives that we've had each of us had different levels of severity of incidents And I have been thinking about this for this conversation The first time this happened to me A man imposed his sexual wishes on me I was nine years old and every time something like that happens it taps back into how i felt as a nine-year-old when a man that was on the phone to me who should have been having a responsible conversation started asking me about what I was wearing and all sorts of questions I didn't understand. And so you can hear, can you hear? Yeah nothing really serious has happened to me thank goodness in my life

18:13 But whenever someone makes an unwanted comment or approach, puts himself in my space it taps back into the nine-year old girl who was f***ing terrified and confused. And just devastated by that And I think this is a fear that most men just, we can't grasp because...I was actually saying this to Jonnie off air last week. When I grew up on a council estate in Walthamstow not particularly nice place and so as always walking down the road you'd know how to hold yourself how to carry yourself not to make you not a target but to make you less of a target than other people around

18:56 Jonnie Jensen, Black Lives Matters The worst I ever thought would happen to me would be someone would stab me, rob me beat me up that sort of thing. At no point was anything sexual ever anywhere close to my mind and so it's just not something that i ever graft or ever have had to grapple with and so it is something I have to consciously consider rather than just accepting that this

19:35 I can't say, it sounds bloody exhausting. Yeah! You've put your finger on it. Just walking around a council estate and doing that keeping yourself safe from like one to nine of things is exhausting enough but to add on the whole nother level of things... God! The physical and emotional mental drain on that must be astounding It is, and obviously we are as you've really pointedly mentioned at the beginning Liz. We've been out of this situation for a long time. You know students classic examples so many students are attacked so few reported it So many female students. Yeah it's petrifying and I think sadly we have gotten sort of used to it which isn't right

20:28 But yeah it's horrible and it makes many parents petrified when their daughters go out for the first time. You know, I mean Jonnie you're a dad of a daughter now but just knowing how vulnerable girls can be you know it's horrible and this was this is a woman at nine o'clock at night...I think there's You know, we do hear of women being attacked in like early hours and that kind of thing. And it's still not... obviously it doesn't make it right at all I think because the nature of the time and... All she did was talk to him! ...and then the shock a bit I think as someone pointed out

21:14 I think i've got what he was trying to say but he said well it was you know there's no one around in lockdown. It's like oh how unlucky, obviously it wasn't a complete stranger was it? But I just think actually It's really a fundamental part of going out on the night. It actually features in most women's night out, it's part of the norm and that isn't right on many levels. It's not right for us to accept it but it is not right for it to be that way and I think you know...I loved your question, it was like how many men actually have not addressed

21:52 Not jumped up, not said anything. We're not asking for you to completely empathize You couldn't unless you've been attacked yourself or you've been sexually assaulted Or you felt vulnerable So what your vulnerability Glenn you were mentioning If you create that emotion in yourself again, and then I would say times it by 10 because ultimately when you're looking at sexual abuse as well then it's a whole not another level of abuse. Some people say, oh women are oversensitive. It's just blokes being blokes like you know it's like give us a break kind of thing and I don't want to go back and cover the questions we've already covered but do women talk about this between themselves? Like if you took an average group of 10 women is it gonna be rare that someone hasn't

22:50 Had something bad happen to them? And then, you know we've on this spectrum sort of thing from on a night out what is expected. From yeah I'd like to be chatted up but no i don't want to have my ass pinched or someone worse rubbing themselves against me on the dance floor kind of thing like it's Where does that line fall between someone being oversensitive and actually, no none of that's welcome? So you asked a couple of questions there. Do women talk about it between themselves? The answer is yes and no

23:34 Like, you know yes we'll if someone wants to share and we normally talk about it in kind of oh my god what's... You know if it was a night out. Oh my god what a sleazebag! If it's been a fear event with very un... I would say for me and my friends were very unlikely to bring it up in a group because it's terrifying. We might confide in a friend and talk about it one-on-one Until... Hashtag me too. That's like a lot crossed, that's like another... Yeah there is a bit of a lot. Well just you know then I'd have to even with my friends right and then and then i can't imagine translating this into the courts if you had to take something further or when I've had an investigation at work for example but even then you're answering questions about something where you have to go back to it and you have to go over it and you have to relive it and I don't want to

24:23 I don't want to relive it. I don't want to think about it and I don't want to experience those feelings again, so I would say talking about amongst women does happen when a woman feels she wants or can share There's no like, I don't have friends where we have agreements. You know like well this is all right but that isn't or anything like that different women are different. I'd also say it...I don't know you have to get on to nights out versus other parts of life because nights out you know there are types of nights out right? Where you go out to flirt, to interact so maybe even to find someone

25:06 Also plenty of other aspects of life where this shit is happening. And like a grope on the dance floor is one thing, um... A grope on a tube is completely another level for me in terms of what we're talking about because you're not expecting it at all going about your business right? Or a plane! I was on a plane Oh, okay. Can you believe it? I was on a bus actually. For me it was. A friend of mine was on the tube. Jonnie mentioned the tube. The stories are so long! Jonnie everyone every woman... Everyone yeah and by the way the stats are wrong aren't they Jo? The stats are wrong when they say it

25:51 78% of women who've experienced... no, it's everybody and lots of us have shut these things out and forgotten. And until hashtag me too we didn't really count them We suppress them, we put them away because it's the shit you had to deal with just just to be able to... Brushing past you or groping or rubbing themselves up like what? I think this is important question Some men will hear this and be like, wow I didn't know that happened. And i'd hope that some men will hear this and go like yeah I do that and I didn't realise they knew right so um what now what do they do? What is it...I mean how lurid is it you know? All of the above virtually every night when you go out drinking and he goes up sort of some busy bars It's like a norm it's so regular

26:42 And obviously as the night goes on and more alcohol, alcohol is definitely has a massive part to play. And again it's going to be interesting coming at this we're still in these restricted times but I think you said it so well that we were having time to reflect on everything right now and this is one of the things It's the norm, Jonnie. It happens all the time if you're out in bars and pubs busy, especially into evening dark when it's just the norm. It's groping, it's rubbing its feeling different parts of body. It's the comments is literally all the above and obviously to then varying degrees

27:25 Depending how late it gets and where, you know. I'm so mindful of where i take myself You know where I walk even in a club if there's just like really careful It's like a constant radar of keeping safe with girls or even just with girls But that brings back into context not all men right because It is the... One of the things I didn't do that, I didn't rape anyone but then yeah, like scale and say you know what if that's like or what i'll do is i'll rub against her then she'll think that I like her and we'll end up having a conversation. Yeah just you know what just walk up to me in smile and start a chat. You know? Like if you want interact

28:20 Well, if you start off by rubbing against me you're really going to rub me up the wrong fucking way. It ain't gonna go any further! I don't think it's about anything further it's just about sex or physical contact that's the thing to bear in mind these aren't guys that are looking for a date they're not looking to chat to you and buy your drink They're looking for physical contact. And I think there's one, there's almost like this line that gets crossed of do I have a right to do this to this woman? Yes, I do. It's fine for me to do this. There's no problem with doing this

29:05 The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Black Lives Matters And so that, I think it's really that simple. And obviously i've dealt with this on all the different aspects of this being an ex-police officer being on the receiving end watching a friend being groped you know? I have stuck up because there are so many friends who have been groped and attacked. I've nearly been attacked myself defending a friend who was

29:49 It's grim. I guess one of the only ways I heard it described that kind of resonated with some people I was talking to, if you had a bowl of M&Ms and you can say right some none or all of these M&M's might kill Yeah, they're gonna have one. You don't know! They might absolutely all be fine and there probably are going to be all because they're M&Ms but one of them might kill you and would you still eat that? Probably not... And so when you go into a nightclub then it's the same sort of thing in terms you just don't know what's gonna happen Yes Glenn and once someone's told you that about M&M's you go to another place and they've got a bowl of M&M's how do you feel about M&M's now

30:32 Yeah, yeah. Right? It's not just that bowl of M&M'S it's not just that club it's not just that night so yeah... Not all M&Ms! Yeah but those that one did last week and that bloke on the bus did So how do you think I feel? The bigger picture is men and women Working together, living together enjoying each other's company as friends. Just you know being good colleagues falling in love like the whole The complexity of men and women getting along, there's an undercurrent to it which seems like men and women are actually further apart in their understanding each other and in their ability to work effectively together. Some men's attitudes and resistance towards women

31:29 born out of whatever's gone on in their life. Quite often, if I speak for myself and what has activated me experiences that on an individual level can then have you say oh well women are like this or women are like that but way bigger than that is an inherent undercurrent of women feeling uncomfortable around men and then everything that comes after that is kind of tainted by it. It's to me a massive knot underneath Just people getting along and being happy together. It has blown my mind to be honest! I think you've got to bear in mind that this, as Me Too did but this has sparked...I haven't thought about this for such a long time and not just because of lockdown

32:18 You know, I've dealt with my issues. My trauma and my past and i've got to a much happier and stronger place emotionally on a trusting point so I don't think it's necessary as bleak that looks. I think actually personally and I know you and I work in similar fields Jonnie. I think women are men and understanding masculine feminine energies within us more men are coming out and showing themselves vulnerable I think sadly this terrible and tragic story has really fired up this element of what it's like to be a woman, and what it's like to walk down the street and not feel safe. And obviously we've gone down a bit of a path here talking about social environments but by and large you know

33:09 But I think that for me personally, the tragedy is that when I do go out and if i go out and I'm going to sort of really busy bars really busy pubs. That I am not familiar with which doesn't happen too often anymore but can still happen. I will be on a radar, I get my radar out constantly thinking and wary in watching Therefore, not enjoying myself and therefore not relaxing. And I would say with all my friends that I go out with we will all go through this processing system when we're out mindful and watching out for this behaviour because we've all suffered from it

33:47 But we're not there judging, we're not there going oh yes he's gonna be... you know it's not like that. We raise our awareness to be considerate of actually there might be someone who is there as the night goes on and obviously certain bars, certain pubs, a certain chain of hubs that you could say you want to avoid. You can be quite specific about it really But it can happen, it can happen in bloody Chelsea let alone downtown Brighton. It can happen anywhere unfortunately but we're not really judging I don't want to sound like we're going and looking for the metaphor just...I think it's important to get into perspective that is something women do go through and consider when they are supposed to be out relaxing having a good time

34:37 It feels like it's drummed into you from such an early age. I'm petrified, I've got two girls and two boys and my oldest son he's 14. He'll just go out on his bike with his mates and will go off riding down the park playing football doing these things Nothing kind of rings in the back of my head. I know he's probably not going to get in trouble, if he does then worst case scenario there'll be some argy bargy and that will be it and they'll be fine but so far so good. My oldest daughter is 16

35:12 Every time she leaves the house, even if she's just going to walk to her friends. She uses WhatsApp live location and she takes a picture of herself what she's wearing and her shoes so that if anything happens to her they've got that live recent photo of it. It's something I've drilled into all of them but she's taken that on board and it's kind of just become...I feel like I shouldn't have to do this. This isn't because anything happened to her in that way? She has. She has been catcalled out of moving cars, she's called me when she not felt safe and those sort of things so far I'm not aware of anything more serious than that happening That bad enough but just from those early little things it is already imprinting on her since she was being young in a way my boys never even considered

36:07 I don't subscribe to this idea that you can only understand this if you've got daughters or if you've got a mum, or a sister. For me thats absolute bullshit! You should be a decent human being and you should be able to understand that this is something that goes on but it is petrifying as a dad to her daughter that thats something she's already having to deal with Well, and you've answered the very first question is why are women more vulnerable. You've identified as a dad why she's more vulnerable without really probably consciously thinking about it but she is but I just want to bring you back to the point that you made and again your problem with the problem and solution that she is doing all these actions in case she's attacked

36:53 So she is knowing before she's even going out the door there's a chance of her being attacked from a mindset point of view, from an energetic point of view. That girl is going out with that in there whether it's thought that's this big or that big and that is heartbreaking or horrifying so we have to come back to what is the solution? How do we change this For, you know it sounds like for Liz too. This is like... jeez I've had this conversation a thousand million times with men!

37:29 You know, what we're again fed up with. What a proof of all this is! We are done with this. Men sort it out and I, you know Jonnie knows i work very much in equality of parliament group called 50-50 Parliament for me It's really simple whilst there's mostly men sat around the table making decisions in policing and governance men will not deal with this because they don't know they don't have access No judgement guys, but you don't. You don't know what it's like like you've just said and I think that is the reality so women need to be at the table making decisions too So men...I said to my friend the other day, he says what can i do for you Jo? How can I help? And I said vote for women

38:14 Vote for women in your local politics and vote for women on national politic level. Get women around the tables making these decisions, and you will be starting to open up and create more of an even conversation let alone even addressing these huge issues of safety on the streets. Can I throw it in then? And go at the grassroots level so yes in leadership But on a day-to-day basis, I know...I'm certain there are blokes out there who in the last 10 days have either wished you know celebrated Women for International Women's Day or bought someone flowers and chocolates for Mothers' Day or sent a card to woman. And in the same ten days they've catcalled someone or they made a comment that someone can hear or done something we're talking about the little things all worse

39:11 And I think we have to start also looking at the double standard of exactly what you called out, which is a right thing for you to be calling out because it's what you're aware of. But there are women in my life who I'm close to and I treat them like this and then there are women. And I think that part of the issue is that lack of realisation I'm going to say how men are treating women. If you're one of those blokes, then maybe just buy someone some extra flowers and don't say the comment again because

39:50 I know, I'd rather... I'd love. I would much rather a gift to me would be knowing that I wasn't going to have to deal with any of that shit for the rest of my life rather than the biggest fricking box of chocolates you can find! You know? Like it's meaningless shit I just think it's more, there is so much more that we can do even on those little scales. When was the last time as a bloke and i'm talking to the dads who are watching this when was the last time any of you called out one of your mates when he said something sexist or he said something that was off-kilter in that way because we don't do it? It's just like oh yeah well it's just banner innit but it's that low level acceptance

40:29 Just even those jokes and those things. I'm not saying you shouldn't have humour, and you shouldn't be able to muck around – that's one thing but there are lines to cross! And even if all you're doing is calling out the worst bits that you come across, that's a start. Then you can dial it down from there just little things, just calling them out constantly... That's something we can do right now And I just think blokes are just so, oh well you know it's just a massive problem. I can't do anything about it and you know what we'll let the politicians and this people and that group sort it out but bollocks! You can do something yourself. I think the test is for a guy to... if you've got a daughter even better If you haven't then imagine you have a daughter or sister and if that comment was made to your sister would you be happy about it?

41:25 Because there's no grey area here. It's black or white, fundamentally as humans we know when we cross the disrespectful line let alone the really positively verbally abusive line We know what that line is if you can feel it intrinsically within us We can tell within us when it feels disrespectful and we can tell when it's feeling a complimentary, and kind, and nice comment towards someone. I could say that about your fleece you're wearing. You know? It's not a great place!

42:04 Or I could say you look like a pile of shit. Which is more likely... That's more personal, but i'm being ridiculous but that is more personal and actually it's derogatory to you because you look fine, you look good and that's me judging you because you're wearing a fleece and that is in a way a very low level very watered down version of what women are receiving So I'm afraid there isn't that middle area. You guys have got to start changing your language, it comes from language It comes from what we say because what we say is what we think and what we think we act on you know it's just reciprocal and so it has to start with language and words And how we say what we say and there could be dads watching this with their sons watching TV What are you saying when a gorgeous woman comes up?

42:58 And just because she's wearing a bikini, I don't give a damn. I don't care where she is... Wearing like next to nothing that does not give you permission to be disrespectful towards her She is a woman with the gorgeous body She could be naked, it doesn't matter what she's wearing or not wearing. How much makeup she has got, whether she has had a boob job, lip job whatever... It does not matter! You are disrespecting that woman as representative of the female species. IT IS WRONG!!! It's an interesting like area to look at there because if I see an attractive woman, my daughter she's openly bisexual and she'll show me. Look at this video isn't she attractive? For me i'm okay to say yes she is attractive. I think commenting and saying I find that woman attractive no matter what she looks like for me that's fine because that's a simple fact

43:58 I think most guys think, oh well what you're saying is that I can't say I fancy someone. I can't do this or that... You can! There's a way of doing it and it shouldn't be hard Don't be disrespectful and don't impose that comment on them when they're not asking for it yeah? Don't put it into their space when it hasn't been invited My golden rule is never say something that wouldn't want said to you in the prison showers It is a joke, but actually it's exactly the same thing because that's the closest most men will ever in their head wrap themselves around the fact that they might end up sexually assaulted.

44:42 And that's the only way I can get it through. It's a good one, it's not a good one but it does happen like either. But it gets through? Yeah The thing that I think every bloke could do is to start to just as Jo was saying tune up to language, to words, to interactions and just start with Is this okay? Just start there with a question to yourself. How does it feel? How might I feel in that, like you'll be able to feel it yourself because it will feel a bit different. To me going whoa! You know like oh wouldn't mind whatever about the waitress as opposed to waiting till she's gone and going she's a bit of all right. Those for me are two different things

45:29 Already. And you know the difference, so is this okay? And if it's not okay am I going to a-participate and if I'm not going to participate what am I gonna do to change it because not participating isn't enough To stop this happening because it's so commonplace and because it's so accepted. I totally agree, one of the things that was going to head in my mind was would you say around a dinner table your nan there? And the thing is then I thought okay well how about your mum and you said earlier how would you feel if someone said that about your sister or daughter How come all those acceptable things are all women I would love it if, so i know that I've been excluded from whatsapp groups and so on because I've called shit out. Mostly it's been you know either islamophobic or homophobic or stuff like that but I've been excluded now I'm not involved in lots of conversations that people that I've met in the past have had because of that So I would love it if someone was to say look would you say that if your dad was there? Probably not

46:28 And because I want more men to be part of that holding accountable nature of conversation. It shouldn't just be, would you say that in front your mum? Because that's only half the battle! Yeah... That's a societal change where however many years ago you had comedians on TV who would just bosh out racist jokes like chalky this or knickknocks which would be jarring beyond belief now And yet it was on Saturday Night TV, what 80s 70s probably Jim Davidson and the like. We're talking about a societal level of change for that to really happen. And I was quite challenged by some

47:17 What was it? Some of the banners, like what are you telling to teach your boys or educate your boys. Educate your sons yeah. When you see those pictures it's very easy for a man to go to the extreme, to go to the rape or the abduction, you know, easy to go to extremes but this conversation is showing us that Actually, this scale of educate your sons or not in my group of mates or not on my watch is we're talking about real everyday levels of respect. And it's not even about compassion. It's just about decency really and having the common decency to want someone

48:07 Okay, to feel happy. To enjoy their work. To feel great on a night out. I mean...I can just see the difference between someone stopping and being like oh my gosh you're beautiful! Enjoy your evening is way different than rubbing your knob against them as you stumble past them. I mean blimey one will completely ruin a woman's evening and maybe the other one will make their evening? That's chalk-and-cheese that's The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Black Lives Matters

48:54 You know, I've interviewed rapists. They don't start as rapists they start with a pattern of predatory behavior and that's why it's really important to call out, recognize it women to report it because it all starts on the lower level starts with the luring, starts with the comments, it starts The slight attack in their hands or the obsession. And then it's that, the boundaries go and it's worse and then it goes from one step to another step to another. So you know... Joe why don't women report those first things? Because they won't. They don't think they'll be believed because they're totally embarrassed so they don't want

49:42 They don't think they'll be believed, they're totally embarrassed and they don't want to relive it. It's one of the most horrifying things that can happen to a woman is being sexually assaulted To then have to go and explain it to your friend is bad enough. To then have to go and explain it to someone you never know, and likely be a male officer... It's getting better women generally are like... female officers are generally brought in but everyone knows that if you go down that path there's going to be a long path the amount of times you'll then have to explain the story how you were abused or assaulted is hideous And thankfully, again you don't necessarily need to disclose who you are. You can give your evidence without being named or without being seen but it's... Again it's getting better but is taking too long for women to be believed

50:33 Actually, I'm just going to say sexual assault victims because i know this happens for men too and it happens for women of our age. But it takes way too long still for women to be believed and what they have to prove to be believed that they were actually raped It's disgusting. Our law is disgusting in this country still, it's so behind and it shouldn't be. I think the whole way back why bother? Why bother putting yourself through all that pain embarrassment trauma your family your sisters your mum will you dad believe you or your mom believe you put yourself through all of that when actually realistically you know the chances of anything actually happening

51:16 And if you add to the equation, you probably had a couple of wines. Oh that means you were up for it! You might be... you probably didn't know what you're doing or you are probably like just having good time We've heard too many stories of this happening So it stops women from taking that step. But I implore anyone watching this or any, anyone knowing any woman who watches this we must change this because how are you expected to know men, anyone how bad this is unless we report it? So be brave, get someone with you. Get someone to support you and actually take that really brave step because you're not helping just yourself You're helping women for the future and that's what we haven't really done

52:00 And all of that, and at the minor infractions end of the scale of predatory behaviours. Of the kind we've been talking about into which I include catcalling, groping comments made you know stuff that's... The kind of stuff that we've all experienced that's happened to me You don't...you know consider the societal context that's telling me it's my fault that that happened That happened, that bloke came onto you in front of all of his colleagues and then were in a work setting because you look-you made yourself look really nice. What's he supposed to do? He can't help himself! That's the societal concept. And that bloke grabbed you on the bus because you're wearing short skirt You know they followed you cause you walked down a dark alley and it is not your fault if you're woman It is not your fault...it is NOT our fault

52:50 But that is the societal context into which this sits at whatever level of the scale we're on. Yeah, designed by men, designed by men, spoken out by men, enforced by men And perpetuated by women who've been taught that too right? Because I have heard women say ah but look what she was wearing Don't give a shit what she was wearing, you know. And when you hear... You're not going out like that dressed like that! Your skirt's too short your top is too low. Too short for what? Too low for what?! Too low for a man not to be able to keep his hands to himself. Why!? That's not the fault of the skirtwearer. It's the fault of the hands and

53:44 Well, men can get quite activated by that sort of Men Design This, Men's Society. What you were just saying there Joe... It is true Jonnie. Historically our political system, our schools everything has been designed by men because when it was designed that who design things so rather than saying Men are the problem there. What it's really saying is that, is that the problem isn't has been redesigned for the world we live in today. It's not fit for purpose right now. It's not inclusive. If it doesn't...it wasn't designed for a 2021 way of life. That's I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just sort of approaching it in a slightly different way for people who might be like, wha-wha-what about that?

54:40 It's actually recognizing, because some men are Joe. Some men are activated by that sort of oh there's women banging on again about women and this and women... Oh well I'm not going to apologize. You know i think we also need to be careful or the fact that um i am not going to apologize for that because it actually incenses me and it drives me completely nuts but you're not allowed to get in. Again I had this discussion recently on LinkedIn with someone That is a fact. It was men that created these laws, they were designed by men so you know just because I'm stating that as a fact... As you could state women were always nurses it was women that have been nursing it's just a fact obviously one is much more accusatory because we're talking about but

55:28 That kind of attitude to attack women for stating facts that men have actually ruled and governed our country is in itself an issue. Because what they're trying to do then is actually backtrack, sideline and actually throw it back at the woman and create aggression to the woman. And say well she shouldn't be bad-mouthing all men I never said all men as if it's men that designed...that created the rules! And I see this all the time on social media and absolutely boils my blood

56:04 That is how our country has evolved. Look at our current government, look at how many men are sat at that table because I can't sit there and do nothing! So that is what needs to change and I'm only stating facts when it tries to be flipped around. But let's get back to the topic. And I think that's something that, almost...I won't say I don't disagree with something you said earlier about voting for women to be able to change the laws and so on. I think it needs go a lot further than that and i think you said there just about the people sitting around the table It's not just about getting women into things like Parliament For me its' about getting women in senior positions within the Parliaments Within all decision making processes because

56:59 It's nothing, if all... even if you had a 50-50 parliament. If that top table is still dominated by men then they're still going to be prioritising men's issues. It's a subconscious thing as much as a conscious thing There needs to be equality at the top table, not just every table in there. It's almost a side thing but... We need 50-50 Parliament and 50-50 in number 10 because number ten is our governor of our nation so whoever's in number ten whatever colour they happen to be that needs to be an equal setting as well totally agree. A lot more than we can reflect on. We need to get a 50-50 parliament to start with to run any hope of having a 60-50 number

57:41 Because otherwise it's never gonna happen and at the moment it's going to look like it's going to take another 50 years, at least. But I don't want... we don't want to wait 50 years to be making change and that's why I think these sort of discussions are really key because there's going to be dads watching this and they will start thinking even if out of this whole thing we just get one dad one time to say that's not cool man then that's a start! And it's not a good enough start But it's a start and I think every man needs to start thinking, what the hell can i do today tomorrow the next day after that? And part two is to encourage every female every woman that they know or every female that they know when anything happens. They must tell them! It must be addressed. They must report it

58:26 You can always take yourself out of a case later on, but until the case is reported it's not classed as crime. It doesn't get a number and it's not counting. And obviously where it is in the environment because you know a lot could happen wherever it happens It mustn't happen, it must be reported. So have that difficult conversation with your daughters if anything happens you must tell me and I promise you I will not judge you, I will not beat you just please tell me at the very least so i know we can do something and encourage women and girls to really speak up about all of this

59:06 And where it's below the level of criminality, then speak it out. Encourage the women in your life to speak it out to you and hear it in a way which says, It's shit that happened to you and I'm hearing that happened to you and I feel bad about that let's talk about it Not, you know the kind of responses I've had thankfully not from the men in my family but from friends who've gone out that you're dead. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way people don't do things like You know, I'm sure you misinterpreting it or yeah no just Just hear and listen and witness and say that's shit How are you feeling?

59:56 Yeah. And do tell me if I'm... but for me it's all about also starting that really young Yeah, my... she was 15 and it was nine-year old daughters walked to the shops last year. And on the way back it was a couple of lads I say lads because they're like 14,15 years old on bikes went past started giving them some abuse no it wasn't sexual but aggressive. Thankfully my oldest daughter was fairly bolshie and she gave a lot back, but when they got home after I'd see if i could have a word with them myself the whole point was trying to make them feel safe and secure and happy to talk about it and not bottle it up and not start getting nervous about it again um...and it wasn't the case of me then saying well you're not going out to the shops again because someone might attack you

1:00:53 Bollocks to that. You'll go to the shops, we'll log this with the police so they've got a record of this so that actually if everyone's logging this stuff the police can then allocate resources to deal with it and will make sure that things are... We'll try and make things safer for you because it shouldn't be about them trying to change their lives, It should be about life changing around them to make sure they're okay to live their lives I love that and the other thing you can help the women in your life with is there's an instinctive reaction we have as human beings but it happens more to women in these situations when we feel threatened which is, we freeze. We freeze or we can't sit down and that's how men get away with a grope because we freeze, we don't slap them and that's how men get away with more because of its protection so what you can do

1:01:42 I actually did a course in this to help me with this. You can help the women in your life to practice their reaction and their response, In a situation where someone asks them an inappropriate question or makes a comment they don't want to hear. So you can practice with them put them in the right situation And just kind of practiced by giving them an inappropriate comment give them chance To have a think about what are things that I could say to that? Like, what makes you think it's okay to say that about me? Saying anything breaks the freeze actually. But I do think if more of us had practice at handling those smaller moments they would be called out more they would be drawn to men and people's attention more and we would ourselves feel better about them because rather than just letting it happen

1:02:33 I love that Jo. Sorry, Liz. Like it's a response mechanism, like you said their muscle memory and having some quick replies back because bullies don't like being bullied or a predator wouldn't expect someone to react. It's not that you want to pass it down the line but if

1:03:12 If you react and put them in their box, they'll be like oh no I'm not going to go near her. She's... she's you know she's not gonna just be submissive and let me dominate her yeah? Yes the more women who react the more it's apparent and obvious that this isn't appropriate isn't welcome and isn't fair as well Because what we're talking about very much is like the pub scenario really, aren't we? And actually it's when there's a group of guys and actually I'd say the odds are that it's that there's one guy that's doing those actions and the others have no idea. So again it could be a mixed group of people and a guy calls out a woman or gropes a woman. It's also about calling that out when you see

1:04:00 And I've had friends before saying, well, I didn't want to get involved. Men friends you know? Oh no! I just thought you could handle this out. No stick up for me look at the size of me and look at the size of them. Stick up for me please or at least offer your help and ask me if i'd like it And I will always say yes. I know, appreciate because i've also had this comment back oh well I went to help a woman she didn't want any help oh yeah when was that? Oh five years ago okay so now you're never gonna help a woman if she's in trouble because some woman said no forget it and she was drunk it's actually her boyfriend! Oh god I've heard all the responses... Some guys are stupidly scared

1:04:46 The mindset is, look he's a bloke that woman has called him out or something. They're having an argument but he's never going to hit her because she's a woman but if I step in and he's gonna wallop me one because i'm a bloke! I think that's one of the fear things that some guys have got. And I don't know Jonnie you've experienced that yourself? But there's this mindset of uh...I don't want to put myself at risk And so, you know he's... the risk between them while it's all verbal and that sort of stuff is fine. But what it doesn't do is do anything for that woman And at the end of the day, if I get a punch in the face that bruise will heal in a week or two. Whereas if she is not even saying that anything else further happens but that's again just going to chip away and chip away and chip away until she just stops going out because can't be bothered with hassle. I'd like to ask you both a question have you ever had your bits fondled? Yes! How did it go?

1:05:43 It was surprising. I mean, by both gay men and by women not often and i'm not saying that this is a commonplace occurrence by any but the fact that it's kind of rare...it stuck in my mind obviously then shows how rare it is for a guy to have gone through that and that it stuck in my mind one or two incidents But yeah, it was just an absolute shock and kind of bolshie women coming up to me obviously on a like a hen party or something. How many times then? Four times. Thank you. Jonnie how many times? A couple of times in mixed clubs I've been

1:06:24 You know, some kind of interaction with a gay guy or two gay guys at one event where by the way I was wearing a gold catsuit. Don't ask me for it Jonnie! It doesn't matter. How are we wearing Jonnie? We've established that already. Listen to you, you've got this societal shit in front as well. I'm trying not to imagine it Jonnie and try not to imagine it. Glint's in the picture. Liz how many times... Just just just to say I didn't feel that intimidated by it, but

1:07:00 I was, i'm quite a big bloke. It was it was...it was shock actually and it was probably later on that I thought about it in the moment I was like whatever and it was later on that I thought that was bloody weird what did they ask me to do? And that's the thing even when it happened with gay guys I've still not felt the fear! I felt the surprise and the shock and then what are you doing mate don't..that's no cool but I've never felt fear And that's something I just haven't experienced. There is no way of me ever wrapping my head around the primal levels of fear that would have gone through if, if I'd been a woman and been a man doing any situation.

1:07:45 You know, all your girl bits should be like clenching everything. Like you're wanting to wrap yourself up I'd imagine just as a funny... this might be inappropriate but there's a Richard Pryor sketch when he talks about women that are being raped the vagina should lock He's like, it should lock on and then he says I got you. You know you're not going to go just completely trapped like a praying mantis Men should not be able to get away with this It shouldn't that flipping abuse of someone else's body, there is nothing that women can do in that moment. If there was they wouldn't do it and that was where the flipping skit ended up like they wouldn't do if they knew they were going to die at the end of it but let alone getting away with it no its a joke a couple times so you know

1:08:46 So what the interesting thing that you both described is that you didn't have that vulnerability feeling and that feeling of fear, which is obviously in essence the difference. You know, the act is the same on a level but it's not and there's a whole hour-and-eight minutes talk around why women feel vulnerable when we're attacked. Liz how many times? of actual physical grabbing or being made to feel that. No, no physical grabbing. Physical grabbing I can separate out three and then there are a whole lot more but i just can't tell you how many. Yeah hundreds. I can't tell you. Hundreds. But those three in places where I really wouldn't have expected it and then there are just yeah just ever so many yeah and I'm guessing you're similar?

1:09:39 Hundreds. On a plane, I'm talking about like a busy plane like you didn't dwell on the point you just mentioned a plane earlier on that was being touched inappropriately here on my top half of me But the groping is, yeah hundreds times and out. And same for my friends all the same so just to get it in perspective um so all of this is you know as much as we can feel empowered and feel strong sadly fundamentally it kind of is unfortunately it does linger and we have to work hard not to go out in fear

1:10:26 What we're dealing with here, and I think this has been such a useful conversation just to highlight the differences and validate the challenges. Sorry just to finish up coming on to Sarah Everton's situation obviously there is a whole subject around when you are sorry the role of who is attacking and belief in trust Because this was a police officer. I think, again that's a whole different show of trust and faith in people and abusive situations. It is but even now i still would say to all my kids find a police officer there's no second of hesitation in that because

1:11:15 Beyond overwhelming majority, I mean this is like scales of infantism. These small numbers of police officers are involved in the worst of things and the overwhelming majority of them are fundamentally amazing individuals who were there to help people so just because it happened once doesn't mean it would happen again even though it could and so I'll always be saying my kids trust the police go for...go to them for help. Oh totally that's another whole conversation I've had some flipping shocking I was in a Facebook chat the other day telling someone to just back off and you know like who do they think now are calling police psychopaths, it's flipping out of order. What's been bothering me sorry Zlenn is your daughter and what we've been talking about is that we need to find a better solution for 16 year old girls to go out by themselves and putting the fear of God into them

1:12:13 Doing that without fear. Is that doable? Are there other solutions? I mean, mine are 14. I've got two years before I start going down this road So I've done it ever since they were toddlers and the mindset for me at that age was, look if you get lost then an individual picture of you means that i can show the police this is what they're wearing right now. And so I've always done it from like from toddlers this is just about if you get lost or if anything happens to you And it's just always, always constantly reinforced. So I'm lucky enough that hard work from a young age is now borne out but yeah she still does it and I will always love her to do it because I want her to feel safe It's something that she can do as part of a ritual of going out She knows there are little things she can do that hopefully will never be used

1:13:14 but might help in the worst case scenario. I think it's great that you're helping her to look out for herself and, to bring it back where we started the conversation, I think it is just worth observing that on a given night of going out, it's very unlikely anything will happen to her. However, on a given day And in my experience, this can just as easily happen in a work meeting as it can on a tube or on the phone. She is likely to be

1:13:55 Interfered with by men's opinions, points of view thoughts sexual thoughts and urges and actions. That is going to happen to her it's gonna happen to a hundreds of times in her life So I would say if you're gonna focus on something with her focus on helping her prepare for that And focus on helping her work out how she gonna... How she and friends are going to develop an attitude to that Yeah, I totally agree.

1:14:31 We need to be careful we're not getting obsessed about it as well because it worries me that we are going to start crossing a line now. Again, you know, we're just actually making the problem worse really by creating more fear. There's enough fear in the world anyway right now So I think we just do more to proactively support it, but like you say maybe just oh look let's give you this little toolkit and then you've got it. For me its numbers, it's always numbers. You know I was told this as a kid, you know just always hang around in numbers safety and number again

1:15:16 But you know, just to stay in pairs. Stay in groups look after each other is what I say to my kids just look after each other and I try not to go down that fear road of because it's not look up so because someone might pull up and pull you into a car It's just about risk management. I almost see these as two separate things that are conflated and overlapping, but one is the extreme, the murder side... But that's around personal safety so i've trained my children not to go into a pub near the Arsenal ground on a day we're playing them in their Spurs kits because that's managing risk and I'll train my children to act in certain ways around because it's managing risk about the extreme side of things

1:16:00 But the whole other world of sexual abuse and unwanted sexual attention, that is a whole separate discussion that we need to do more on. And the extremes frustratingly annoying there will always happen because people are awful but we can't live our life just by those extremes but they can shine a light on all the things that led to that and these are the things that we can stop if we can stop one Let's be honest, we can stop one boy from starting that path you were saying about Jo in terms of starting the path towards becoming a rapist. Start challenging them when they're kids start challenging your mates when they're out, start challenging them before they make those journeys and they won't go down those... They're less likely to go down those paths and I think that's something that we as dads can and should be doing a lot more often than what we are doing. Yes and if we can help more girls

1:16:53 If people spend much more time, much longer periods of time not thinking about this topic because nobody has imposed unwanted sexual attention on them then that will be a huge positive. Not having to have these conversations. And also I think establishments can take more responsibility Because you know...I could list off the brands of pubs and it's hard to imagine right now but there are certain types of pubs that actually get These places should be more accountable, more considerate. You know it should encourage good behavior you shouldn't have to however the other thing I'd like to bring mention on a safety point of view because obviously this has all started because of Sarah Evans case actually we can all be more aware when were driving

1:17:41 Instead of being in our own little worlds, you know when we're driving on the road just be more aware of oh there's a woman walking by herself. Let's notice that and just keep an eye, be more aware especially certain roads are darker or less well lit. There is definitely reluctance to get involved it's in our culture It's a national, you know terrible thing that we do. It's like to not get involved don't get involved when you can hear arguing next door You know I've dealt with so many cases of horrendous situations which would have been a lot better if people had intervened earlier So let's lose that worry when we fear feel that something is off

1:18:28 React on it and take action. And it might just be, you know whatever is just notice and just keep an eye out and we do that in our cars We can do that walking down the street You know I've heard cases where women have been attacked and they knew someone was walking behind them So they must have seen something but they didn't do anything because he don't want to get involved Where does that get us? Awesome guys I hope anyone listening has

1:19:10 Felt the flow of the conversation. If you've joined us part the way through then by all means go back and watch the beginning The intention for this conversation was for two women to share with the rest of us, men in particular what it's like on a day-to-day level to experience the unwanted advances of men either through unwelcome comments, unwelcome touch or You know more rather more predatory, you know groping And just to have it as men, to realise that it's more than just the extremes. It's more than just women being oversensitive and men bitter banter. It's an everyday adrenaline inducing fear

1:20:00 need to exist, that isn't welcome. That is giving women a poorer experience of life at the very least a different experience of life to what men have and I hope anyone who's taken the time to join us this evening or is watching or listening on the replay or the podcast that That's made a difference so you can go and share this with other people in your life that it might make use second You know, have a second thought. Second guess yourself in any of your own actions not to make you wrong or to feel guilty but just to have you think okay I'm not going to do that anymore. I didn't realize it. Okay I did realize and now i know actually is not okay um and you know if there is that group... If there is that mate in your group who's always the one then then no more don't let him be oh yeah that's Bill or whatever you know like let's call Bill out on those things he says and does

1:20:52 Liz and Joe, thank you. Not every woman would have come on and done this evening and I really appreciate your Your willingness, your generosity and your femininity in it. It's been wonderful to have you here thank you. And Glenn I appreciate you not leaving me on my own in this because that has been a bit awkward at times! My palms are sweating but it should do...it should be uncomfortable for men and that was the intention so thank you everybody Thanks Jonnie, really great thanks Glenn Thanks for all the discussion in this way and thanks, Jeremy. You're welcome I'll see you on the other side Thank you dads men anyone else that's listening? That wrap up i did at the end of that pretty much covered what i wanted to say but uh this is what we do at Team Superdad it's about being best possible men we could be in the world making gains stepping up listening

1:21:59 I hope you will share this with people in your life. Click on it, like it, share it review it anything you can do to get this important message out. This really was powerful I think I'm going to do a highlights one so that people can get kind of bite-sized 15 minute version. How long that will take? I don't know, but in the meantime let's share this long one and if this is the kind of man you are, the kind of modern dad, a man who wants to create an impression on his kids be the difference in his circle of friends really lead by example and create a new future both for yourself your family your friends the community...the world

1:22:43 This is the kind of man that our So, that's it. My name's Jonnie Jensen. Thank you for listening for this long I welcome you to the podcast next time and inside the Team Superdad community, Team Superdad out! Bye This has been Team Superdad Find us at teamsuperdad.com Join the program and create the best life ever for you and your children You are not alone You're on team super dad