How Men Can Start Therapy Without Fear - Men's Mental Health

00:00 I was speaking at a conference recently and there was a firefighter in the audience and i said hey man it's easier for you to run into a burning building than it is to ask your mates for emotional help right? And he like whoa! And I was like, he nodded. And I was like right... Right that's how mad it is Welcome to The Jonnie Jensen Show, where modern dads discover how to create the true riches relationships and results they deserve. Get your High Value Man blueprint and join our community at highvaluemanproject.com Let's go!

00:41 Welcome to The Jonnie Jensen Show. It's great to have you back here today's guest episode is a beauty if you're a man who has ever thought I'm fine, I'll deal with it, I don't need help while something inside you knew that wasn't quite right well this episodes for you Today's conversation is about masculinity. It's also about therapy and silence, shame and why so many men struggle to reach out even when they're struggling. My guest is Chris Hemmings, a therapist author and founder of the Men′s Therapy Hub UK's first and soon-to be US' first directory of male therapists built by men for men

01:18 In this episode we talk about grief, addiction. Why men drop out of therapy? What actually helps how men get into therapy and how masculinity can be a strength rather than something to be ashamed of It's not fluffy, it's not anti-men. It is about understanding yourself properly and if anything resonates from this episode then of course go check out Chris Hemmings and the Men′s Therapy Hub. And for anything relating to The High Value Man Project then come on get involved at our school group.

01:55 High Value Man Project dot com forward slash group. We'd love to have you there at the base level, you can access all the resources and tools for free and then look to join The High Value Man Elite Group or work one on one as we roll into 2026 without further ado let's crack on! Chris, welcome to The Jonnie Jensen Show. Absolutely brilliant to have you here! You are the founder of The Men′s Therapy Hub we got introduced on LinkedIn active in the men's mental health, men's performance space so really great to connect like this and have you here today. It is a pleasure to be here. Brilliant! You also got your own podcast which was another part of how we came to Be Connected remind me again what you called that?

02:45 It's called No Man's an Island and it is launched to support the work we're doing at Men′s Therapy Hub. Brilliant, brilliant! What episode are you on now? Quite fresh isn't it? Yeah it is pretty fresh. Next Tuesday is episode 11 Good. Yeah, it's the early growth phase where you check in the statistics and you're like wow those are low but I know you'll know it takes time to build an audience yeah yeah well I told you didn't I? The death point is episode 14 but I know you got more guests your way past that in your guest lineup so you're gonna get past there yeah we've already got episode fourteen He's done it! Yeah, he is ready to go. Good good so you know let's the context for todays chat is obviously men′s mental health, men′s therapy but your story is also a wonderful example of the journey that

03:41 I think it's great context for people, for how you've come to be a men′s therapist and how you've come to create the Men′s Therapy Hub. I love how quick that has gained momentum and the number of people who have joined there. The hub yeah we already got 148 paid up therapists on Men′s Therapy Hub which is phenomenal! We were hoping for 50 by October for our launch week and on launch week we had like 120 or something it was incredible. I will say the caveat to that is, it's easier to get the therapists to sign up than it is to get them in to come and join... And sorry then it is to get them meant to come and use the therapists yeah yeah that is our next challenge but to see such support for it has been incredible and I'm so grateful to every single one of them for taking their time and you know investing

04:32 And whilst we're talking about it, what's the importance of men finding a dedicated Men′s Therapist? It's such a great question because The thing that we are never saying with Men′s Therapy Hub is that men should have a male therapist. We're definitely not saying that women are no good therapists for men because they are and they can be, and the joke I make is there's just as many shit male therapists as there are shit female therapists in percentage right? However, the important thing about Men′s Therapy Hub from my perspective

05:20 I was one of three men who graduated on my cohort of 24, on my therapy class. There were more women of color that graduated than men and that's great for women of color just to be clear not good for men. It's just an illustration of the numbers yeah right And most of the men i speak to were... The highest number i've heard so far is four men on the course and Between 40 and 50% of men drop out of therapy early, and one of the major factors that they cite as their reason for dropout is that they don't feel understood by their therapist. So for me there is an obvious missing link here to say well is it possible that the men are already coming into therapy maybe they are more likely to feel understood by a man?

06:26 Affinity bias would suggest so. And there is a lot of evidence to show that the places like Andy's Man Club and The Mankind Project, Talk Club... all of these wonderful places where men go, Men are more likely to go to a space that they might see as kind of emotionally threatening if it is run by men for men. So, that's what we're saying with Men′s Therapy Hub We are saying here are a load of men who specifically want to work with you, a man because you are male And so hopefully that might entice more men to come into therapy and use therapeutic services. Because of course I am an advocate for therapy, I have experienced the benefit of being in therapy. At some point when I have some money in the bank because I'm at very big minuses right now from setting it up... I'd like to run an advertising campaign that says unsure about therapy question mark we get it we were too

07:28 Men's Therapy Hub, male therapists for men. To normalize the fact that yeah going to therapy like what the fuck are you talking about going into therapy? That sounds terrifying I don't want to sit in a room with a guy and tell him about how I feel that is alien to our entire male socialization and we want to say yeah we get that because we also went through And yet here we are saying, we believe in this space and we want to work with more men so please do come and try it. We are all specifically men who wants to work with you because your male. Yeah yeah

08:04 I mean, it wasn't necessarily the start that was planned on. But when I tell you my story basically when I first went to therapy it was the end of my marriage. My brother had taken his life in front of a train six months before and I thought we would go...I thought it was like marriage sort of what we're going to repair the marriage basically. The marriage is done right? There's a picture, I wish I had a video of it equally. I wish I don't have a video of it where I was screaming at this little wonderful lady therapist there's nothing wrong with me! There's nothing wrong with you're supposed to fix our marriage like literally screaming at this little South African woman. Clearly nothing wrong with you. Nothing at all there's nothing to see here this guy is completely stable right and

08:49 When I saw the doctor, she said, yeah. I'm not going to work with you anymore unless you go and get antidepressants now. The decline of our marriage had gone on over four years three miscarriages my wife's poor health as a result of those then our daughter was born which was hopefully going to be the start of everything getting better and actually my wife got more real then my brother took his life like a whole load of unfortunate life situations that may be on a different scenario wouldn't have happened and we'd still be married But when I eventually went to the doctors because the therapist, the counselor, the marriage counselor said to me, I'm not working with you anymore unless you go and see the doctor. He sat, he sat me down and he said tell me all about it. And it was the first time I'd really given myself space to say oh yeah actually I think I'm really struggling

09:42 He explained to me what antidepressants were. I thought they were a sign of failure and the reason I'm bringing this up is that men might think going into therapy is a sign of failure, right? And I was like, and he was like no you've been through such a shit storm for four and a half years of emotional stress and strain. You're like burnt out! Like this is the chemical thing going on in your brain antidepressants are going to help address the chemical balance in your brain so you're not burnt out any anymore loosely speaking. And of course from a holistic point of view I carried on with therapy and I got fit and I spent time connecting with friends and basically looking after myself to put it all back together. But it was, that bridging that gap between I'm fine, I can get through this but as opposed to actually realizing yeah Jonnie's struggling, Jonnie needs to do some work, Jonnie needs to take the situation seriously. The subject of men's mental health and suicide obviously taps into this

10:41 And giving men the more freedom and capacity to go and find a therapist, talking counsellor someone that they can connect with and feel that there's a safe space there is absolutely essential. That's what was happening at Men′s Therapy Hub so let's hope as a result of this podcast and others that you're on that more men go and find that I hope so and i just want to address something there because you talked about creating a safe space. And, I think that can be a bit of a misnomer because that kind of is no such thing as a safe space and particularly for men the challenge of going into therapy is that they don't feel like it's gonna be safe for them one of the most common things I hear from clients after three four sessions when I do a check-in is like Do you want to continue with this? How was this working for you? As they say I've never been in a space where

11:31 I haven't been in a space where i haven't been told that im doing something wrong or that, and that is so powerful for men. And that's what alot of people don't understand about therapy. Therapy isn't a space were you're going to be told your doing anything wrong. Therapy is a space where we are gonna ask questions as to what it is thats going on with you and increasingly now particularly working with men there is a movement away from the old kind of like blank screen therapist to being a bit more of a coach, a bit more direct. A bit more encouraging, challenging you know calling their bullshit where you see it. A bit more of kind of humanistic approach rather than the old person-censored which would be the kinda blank screen. And...to help guide men because traditionally what we've done in therapy is we've said some man okay here's this space where you need to come in and you need to figure out for yourself with me in this space what's going on

12:29 But that doesn't take into account the fact that most guys don't have a toolbox. And I talked about, with my experience and maybe we can get onto this is that when i opened my toolbox after the death of my dad... ...I just filled it with cocaine because that worked for a time right? And I've done the research It doesn't work long term So we're asking guys to come into a space and okay just be emotional Well how? I can't do that Yeah And then men will feel and And yet here you are feeling ashamed of the fact that you don't know how to talk about your feelings and your emotions when nobody has shown you how to. Then, of course what we do culturally is say to men You and your mates just need to start a jazz band together despite the fact none of you have ever played an instrument in your life

13:37 Which is just absurd and all it does is lump more shame on. So a lot of the movement now is to understand when men come to therapy, a lot of it is normalizing the challenge and being more real with them And also being open about some of your own experiences To help them realize that they're not alone in this challenge You know every therapist Chris has been in therapy for the first time and shitting their pants about going to therapy. That is a nearly universal experience, so the more that we can let men know there are people like me doing therapy and I'm not some fancy Oxford educated posh guy.

14:21 I know, I know. I sound like it! I know you definitely do! Yeah exactly right? But also if you don't want to work with someone who looks and sounds like me There is someone out there who looks and sounds like you. And also, there are other people out there who have specialities if you're queer or if your different religion race... You know? If you're struggling with your gender Men's Therapy Hub has its first transmasculine therapist on it and I'm like fuck yeah that's awesome because there are transmasculine men out there Who might want to speak to a trans masculine therapist so great! Maybe I'm not the right therapist for them

15:01 But therapy is not a homogenous thing. We are all individuals as therapists and so the space that we create as therapists is also individual, and that's what's really important to remember if you are doubting about going into therapy wait until you find the right therapist and once you do it'll be life-changing. Oh absolutely I say to so many because my work is distinctly coaching right? And there's I'm not qualified as a therapist, but it becomes apparent when I say to someone like, okay well there's some trauma here that I think you could really benefit from working through. And then you say like the idea that you're going to go online, go through some list of people on Google and pick someone that's going to be the right one. It's talking needle in haystacks stuff really? So don't expect for it to be the first one being the right one. That was the case for me. It was the third person I found that was... Right

15:59 Literally a blessing, really. Wonderful woman. The way that I describe it is if it's October and you need to go and buy a new winter coat you don't go to the first shop, don't find a coat and say oh well I guess I'll just freeze this one. You go okay I'm gonna go to another shop but if I can't find one there I'm gonna have to come out tomorrow and he gets like okay it's bit annoying we will keep looking until And then once you've found the coat that you like, you'll wear it and it will help you to stay warm. That's what it's like with a therapist is... It is incumbent on the client to keep working to find the therapist that works for them and sometimes I have clients who leave after three or four sessions and they go, ''I don't like your style'', and I'm like good well done! Yeah brilliant Go and find somebody there is What can you say to men? There's so much to get into right but what can you say just address this subject first because we're talking about

16:56 For men to ask the right questions when they first meet a therapist, how does a man set himself up to find the right therapist and what sort of questions might he ask that help him work that out? The best advice I can give you on how to find the right therapist is look through a directory. So if you go to Men′s Therapy Hub and you look through the directory have a look at the photos First of all, right? I've got some like...I've got earrings and I've got some like bleach in my hair. Right? If you think i look like a prick don't use me as your therapist!

17:34 If you think that I look like somebody you might be interested in talking to, then book a 15-minute consultation with me. Don't just say, ''I want to start with you.'' Say, ''I want to book a 15 minute consultation with me,'' and then also do that for three or four other guys that you don't think looked like pricks and have a week where you have a few meetings with therapists and we are used to that as a therapist. We are expecting that as therapists. And when you come on the call tell them a little bit about what's going on with you Let them ask you some questions and ask them how they work, ask them a little bit about their practice. But most of all, you're doing a vibe check You are doing the check off does this guy feel like somebody that I could maybe start to work with and open up too? And if it doesn't then don't work with him right? If your really struggling to find anybody

18:33 And everyone you meet doesn't feel like someone you can open up to. Maybe you're not ready for therapy, right? Yeah! That's okay too but don't give up on it come back to it because I've had clients come and do introductory sessions and then six months later have been like... You were my first choice I just wasn't ready for therapy and now I am so let's work together. It is really about just getting a sense of what was the conversation like Does he look and feel like a guy that I want to talk to every week? Because if you don't like my accent, if you don't like the sound of Lancashire slash Yorkshire accent like this then don't have me as a therapist. Because that ain't changing! No, I ain't gonna change my accent for ya exactly exactly so it isn't easy to find the right therapist but that's kind of the beauty of it because when

19:35 Investing in yourself. So don't just go with the first guy, unless he feels immediately like a good fit for you take the time do the research take a few 15 minute calls and then go with your gut which is the guy that felt like the best fit for me? Yeah I mean an important thing that every man needs to realize is that as things stand and particularly us lot are now well into adulthood we haven't been taught this stuff We haven't been given an indication of what masculinity might look like in all its shapes and flavors. We haven't been given the reassurance that it's okay to be having a bit of a wobble or to be in a marriage that isn't working, and seek support like oh we'll just work out would be fine like back you know I'll sort this out you know that lone wolf idea you know even if you've been given the tools it still doesn't make sense

20:35 A man who's feeling that gap, like not quite ready for therapy doesn't really understand. Is there a... should he go to an Andy's Man Club or some kind of group? Would that help him get a clearer idea where he might be at? It's often a really good starting point because what that does is it puts you into an environment where there are men who again you have to remember every guy who's in one who is arriving there on their first day for their first session and they're shitting their pants because it's terrifying, right? What am I going to do? Am I going sit in a circle and talk with some blokes that I've never met like what the fuck. And also if you don't want to talk in your first sessions no one's gonna force you too. Well but there's that fear that you might have to talk isn't there? Of course! Yeah of course there is. So yeah I would say therapy has a very specific space where there are lots of things that are therapeutic

21:35 I know that a lot of men coaching can be a therapeutic space because actually what they need, a lot of guys is to kick up the arse from someone. And I know it's more complex what you do Jonnie but in essence... No thats basic of it totally yeah! Exactly A bit of coach, a bit of cheerleader right? Someone to be on their team and so find a space that will work for you The men's groups, I mean there has been an explosion in the past five years of the amount of men′s talking groups and what we are hoping as a kind of Men′s Collective is that we can get more men into spaces where men are. And normalize the challenge of speaking and in doing so you can learn from the guys around you because that is partly what we are doing as therapists We are also modeling vulnerability sometimes That is the beauty of those spaces because every guy there

22:31 They're challenged by something or they're lonely, or they have had something big going on in their life and they need some camaraderie and some brotherhood. So if you're feeling any of those things then a talking group is a fantastic starting point for that. Why aren't there different flavours? Have you met Dan Flanagan who runs Dad La Soul? I have not! Okay, you've got to hook up with him right get him on the No Man's Island podcast right Dan's thing, he used to organize parties and stuff in the nineties and DJing and things. Then he got married and had kids all of a sudden he stopped doing all the things that he enjoyed which is a classic part of one of the elements of High Value Man Project like are you having fun? Like are you doing things you used to enjoy it? No life's really boring okay well that's probably what your miserable right so dan was like I just want somewhere where i can go and hang out with my kids and have a laugh with other blokes

23:27 The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, Chris Hemmings, Men’s Therapy A bunch of blokes getting together, having a coffee and Dan does stuff. They have like hip hop sessions and fix-and-repair sessions and all sorts of cool fun things basically that's all across the South and Southeast Dadspace in Kent another again more of a social type thing as well

24:05 Yeah, I mean that's the genius of Men′ Sheds is like let's get together and build some shit which sounds terrible to me. You should feel how soft my hands are but for some guys that is what's missing from their life it's like a sense of productivity in that way So let's go and build things and actually we can get into a brainwave state where sharing about ourselves as easier because we're focusing on something else And even if you're not sharing about yourself you are at least in companionship with others And yeah, I mean there's also men′s retreat where you can go and chop down trees and build rafts and swim through waterfalls. That stuff is great for me! I love the outdoor stuff. For each person it's about finding the space that works for you. It is very much the same with a therapist. It's about finding what sort of therapy do I want? Who do I want to find? Outside the therapy space what sort group do I wanna go to? What sort guys do I wanna be around?

24:56 Why do you think, shifting gears a little bit. Why do you think men are lacking this so much? Like is it just happened? Is it a modern society thing? Did we used to go the pub or the working mens club and just work drink go home? You know like what's... Where does this come from where men don't have things to do or friends to hang out with how has that all happened? It's such a big question because there are Big one that you've just spoken about there, with Empath. My business goes into schools and businesses to do talks on men's mental health masculinity A young lad once stayed behind and he's like what has changed? He basically asked this question He's like what has changed for men that in the past 10-20 years we've become so disconnected from each other And these two old lads as they were leaving You just went snooker halls pubs football teams

25:57 All the stuff where men used to congregate, I mean the number of pubs closing every week in the UK is appalling. Right? There used to be these places that were culturally male and the problem is and understandably so, the pub was a very male domain because women were forced to stay home. And so what happened as women entered the workplace also were encouraged to engage with stuff at home is that those places became less and less popular. And also they became not just like male refuges, so to speak. So you've lost that add into that the socialization of men from like kind of mid 1800's onward so there was then particularly drilled into us during the two major wars

26:51 Keep calm and carry on. Don't complain about yourself, don't talk about the challenges that you're having and what that does is it drives disconnection between men And then there is a huge sense of risk for men That feels like a cultural risk for men to reach out and say I'm struggling, I need help, I need some companionship, I need someone to talk to because we have been told And and

27:53 That was like shining night, say today on his own. Yeah yeah exactly and I used to say this to kids in schools it's like if you want to be a lone wolf go and live in the woods but none of us is alone wolf because I used to say to them who fed you today? Who made your shoes did you build the car that you are driving that your parents are driving you to school in? Like You're not a lone wolf, we all need people. And actually what this whole lone wolf the Sigma male what this whole mentality is sadly it's just another cover for I can't connect with people so I'm kind of wearing it as a badge of pride because I want to own it and I don't want to feel ashamed of it yeah and where we are is we're driving so many young men away from the connection that they really need

28:45 Because the single most longitudinal study ever carried out by Harvard University, I think it was the phase it started in? It tracked the lives of babies all the way through and then also tracked their family members. And has all but proven that the single biggest predictor The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Chris Hemmings, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie J

29:39 stepping over each other to try to prove that we are somehow superior. But that doesn't work out in the long run, but that's so hard to convince young men it's so difficult to convince young men that going to the gym at 14 and being obsessed with your body at 14 actually is setting yourself up for real challenges your whole life and it's even harder to convince them about being rich won't make you happy. It's almost impossible because absurd capitalist culture that is constantly telling you, oh well if you only have this shiny new phone your whole life's gonna be better. Oh it has a something pixel camera? Oh great! So like don't go... stop taking photos of stuff and actually like going look at stuff Yeah. Be present with stuff. And that's what we're missing out on culturally but then what we do is young men become disaffected through no fault of their own

30:41 And Boys and girls, and that relationship stuff. In my lad's social circle... And I'm not trying to big myself up here but just sort of saying it as some of my practices as a dad is I want to know his mates' names. If we're at football or something and one their dads is there, I'm like oh hello I'm Jagoe's dad so I'm making sure that my kid knows that I'm interested in him when he's talking about his friends I'm like Oh! Is that Jack? Or is that Luke?

31:28 Across the board, few of them seem that interested in having a girlfriend. And whilst there's a bit of banter about it, almost like the risk of having a girlfriend doesn't seem worth it. Like if you think back to when I was 15 now school disco, It was like how many people did you snog? Like there was no...it was just we're all having fun and we have a snog. I went out with her for three weeks. Now I'm going out with my mate. No one, There was no like Um, stigma or fear or anything about that. And yet when talking to them and seeing them in action is like there's a feels like a lot of risk for dating someone there's they do this whole thing where they have to text and chat before they can ask them out it's called talking are you talking? Oh yeah well you can't talk with Sally because me and Sally were talking even in this talking phase we've probably got a different word for up north whatever but that just seems like a lot of

32:23 Risk for young lads in the dating space. Is that something you've picked up on school? I mean, I guess this leans into what are lads being told at school about masculinity and who they're allowed to be and what they're not allowed to do. Well that doesn't help of course just to go back a little bit yeah the whole concepts of risk it's one of the main reasons why young people don't drink The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub, Men’s Therapy Hub, Men’s Therapy Hub, Men’s Therapy Hub, Men’s Therapy Hub, Men’s Therapy Hub, Men’s Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men's Therapy Hub, Men

33:17 The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen, Men’s Therapy Hub Chris, it happened to a mate of mine's son.

34:02 I would note details don't matter, but a random incident accusations and he had his whole life shut down for his whole sixth form experience was shut down because of something that someone said that actually wasn't true. And he had no grounds to really push back. No. And look, I will always say that most allegations are true. Yeah. There are always going to be some false allegations But actually what we're talking about most often are not allegations of sexual abuse or allegations of rape even, like they're allegations of slightly overstepping a boundary. Of not being a good boyfriend. Yeah yeah that's...yeah right? And you can lose everything so to the young lads you said it why would they risk why would they risk

34:57 an unknown, which is I don't know how this person is going to respond if we break up. Because it's so easy to send one message and everything can blow up So I get it! I think that young men are living in a culture right now that is telling them that basically they are inherently toxic And they have to prove otherwise That is at least how a lot of them feel Yes Can you imagine what that would be like? To be told You know there's this kind of, there's this apocryphal tale almost from Australia where these 14 year old boys were made to stand in front of the school and apologize for their toxicity. And it's like most these lads are like what have we done? No but you're male so you are therefore inherently wrong and bad. Yeah. Think about what that does to a young man's sense of esteem it pushes him, it pushes him so far down

35:59 and away from connecting with the culture in a way that we would actually like them to. Because what's missing is empathy and compassion for men, and boys. To say okay but if 14 year old is behaving this way And many 14 year olds are behaving this way It's not the 14 years olds fault that they're behaving this way it's the culture around the 14-year-old that we need to look at. And actually statistics do show sadly That I'm a millennial has way less levels of misogyny than Gen Z boys do. However, the levels of misogyny in Gen Z boys is still... it's like 9 out 10 or 8 out 10 boys don't agree with misogyny. So we're still focusing on this minority. Tiny percentage exactly yeah Who are buying into the rhetoric they hear from Sneeko and Andrew Tate and these guys online Yeah And saying well these boys are representative

37:02 To which the rest of the boys go like, well no hang on. I'm not like that! That's the bit that winds me up the most and it happens for men as well you know? Like bad men good men good dads bad dads it's like do you know what?! The large large large percentage of us are all are all good but we're all being told men are bad, men need to step up or boys are a risk. The message seems to come across for me that a lot of girls have been told is teenage lads And then that leaves lads going, I'm a threat. Seriously? What like... Okay. Like wow! And then the stomping down of what is inherent positive masculinity you know okay well I better not speak up. I better not be strong and confident. I better not be me. That's it that's the most pinching thing we can do to anybody man or woman don't be yourself terrible. Around about 78%

38:03 of men globally identify as masculine. So that is a huge, more than three quarters of men globally identify as masculine If you are then telling those men that their masculinity is unwanted That it is unsafe That it is quote toxic You are directly undermining that man's sense of self And in fact by undermining the man's sense of self you are more likely to create the sort of man that you are afraid off Because it is mostly the men who don't have a good relationship to their manhood, to their masculinity that are the ones out there being violent. That are the ones out there enacting those behaviors that you don't want them to enact The men who are violent towards other men and towards women Are mostly repeating a cycle of abuse and violence they have experienced around them Whether that be physical sexual emotional abuse They lash-out

39:08 because they need to reclaim something that they feel has been lost. So, that is not a man being toxically masculine, that is a man at odds with his own masculinity. Yes I totally agree yeah That's something that we're missing because instead what we do is... We throw tomatoes each other and we tell men that they're bad and then when some people are speaking up for me or the people will say well We shouldn't be looking at men, we need to be focusing on women. But then when we focus on women some men will say oh but we need stop focusing on women and focus on men it's like no hang on a second...we need to focus in everybody! We need to focus on what's best for everybody yeah and I've seen right now in the UK

39:49 There is about to be yet another effort at reducing misogyny and sexual violence against girls in schools. Which, by the way I am fully on board with the concept of but the way that they are doing it is let's focus on the boys and teach them about misogyny and teach them about how to be better men for girls To which I say That needs to be the last part of it. The first part of it needs to be, can we talk to the boys about the culture of boyhood and about the normalization of violence and cruelty amongst boys? Because what you're talking about are boys who are violent towards each other because that's been normalized they are hurting they are struggling They don't get space to express their pain

40:42 So their pain is suppressed and it comes out later as secondary anger. And secondary anger is much more prone to outbursts, and those outbursts are about reclaiming something that they feel have been lost so who's the easiest target for that? The girls around them who can't fight back physically but we miss that We're constantly focusing on the symptoms and never focusing on causes is this normalization of rigid ideals of masculinity that are bravery, strength toughness in a traditional sense. Of showing my worth through my physicality. And we're setting boys up to fail still

41:26 Absolutely. And this message in schools, as I see it as well is out of balance and particularly just on that point back to the what some of the stuff that girls get up too. The lads are just like, sod that! It's not even worth it you know? That's about human dynamics. That's about managing relationships and respecting men and women. For me, the magic Your work is called High Value Man.

42:14 And actually a lot of the messaging is telling men that they're not culturally valuable. And the irony is, and I push back so hard against this concept of like universal male privilege right? I'm super privileged my biggest privilege is that I grew up in an emotionally stable household. That's truth right? There was an awesome black woman on my course and when we were talking about race, she put her hand up and she was like you can't just tell me that I am underprivileged. She grew up in a wealthy stable household and is doing really well for herself. She's one of the coolest people I ever met right? And she basically stopped telling me that i'm not privileged just because im black

42:58 And I do understand that there are a lot of challenges of people with different races and ethnicities in the UK, so that's not what i'm getting at here. What I am getting at is saying that to say to men you are inherently privileged means that... okay, does that mean when I'm suffering or experiencing trauma it's less important or worthy of care? Okay, I'm inherently privileged even though i'm more likely to end my own life become homeless experience violence develop addictions. Okay that doesn't seem like I'm privileged there was the Kamala Harris and AOC, I think in the US were talking about we can't think of any way that men's bodies are policed in the way that women's are with abortion laws. And like George from The Tin Man who you said earlier... Yeah he is coming on next week yeah He pointed out like what about conscription? Like think about what's happening in Ukraine right now! Yeah Like men are being conscripted into the army their bodies are being thrown into what has been described literally as the meat grinder right

44:04 So, what do you mean we're inherently privileged? Okay I can walk down the street and technically feel safer. But actually, technically I'm not safer because the research would suggest that I am three or four times more likely to experience stranger violence. So this idea of universal privilege is also put upon boys and we're talking about like a lot of white working class boys who have the lowest socioeconomic expectations and outcomes of any cultural... of any societal group in the UK And they are just told no-no you're privileged and we need to focus on the girls

44:41 Basically, shut up and get on with it. Which is exactly what we're going back to the top of this conversation is exactly what we're saying no don't shut up and get on with it Let's get down to being the real version of you. challenges, sorry we need bespoke interventions for each place on the intersection wherever that might be. So it doesn't make sense to have a women's therapy hub because 80% of the therapists on the internet are female but when I went into working construction it makes sense to have

45:34 Women of X or a queer LGBT of X. But what I've said is, because i've got into bits on businesses and done this... And actually I can say this now, I helped KPMG to launch theirs some years back which is Can we create a men's well-being network? Not a men's network to try to advance ourselves. Be better! Stronger yeah Because that already exists A Men′s Well Being Network But that was so difficult for so many organizations to swallow because it's like, well why would we help men? Yeah. And you've said just lean into as we hit up to the top of the hour some of the things that you've also done. You're a journalist by trade. You've written books. You mentioned Empower as well. What's what's the book about?

46:22 So the book was called Be a Man, How Macho Culture Damages Us and How to Escape It. It was written in 2016 came out in 2017 what I would say to you is don't buy that book okay instead by the book by a guy called George Bell which is called be a man about it ironically and I've just interviewed him for No Man's An Island our podcast and he's basically written The 10th, the ten year update of my book. So go and buy his With empath so it's M hyphen oh sorry It's a cheesy play on words And I actually don't go into the schools anymore But my colleague Will goes into he runs it now and we have multiple facilitators They're going to do talks and workshops trying to meet boys in their reality and to say to the boys like We are here because we see you

47:08 And we're not here to say that you are problematic, we are here to say how can we be better for yourself? For each other and for the people around you. But it starts with the self right so we're never going in saying boys you need to be better for the girls We're doing that as part of a wider conversation about how we can be better for ourselves as men because it has to start with the self So that's empath and then yeah more recently And my wife has told me that I'm not allowed to launch a new business for at least another five years. Yes, yes, I get that yeah and in terms of you know a great way to wrap this up masculinity clearly you've been involved in the conversation and your work boys men you know for a number of years now journalists by trade for it for a man looking to understand masculinity and tune into perhaps his own version

48:05 Where would you steer him? What would be some of your encouragements to reveal that. One of the things I get frustrated by is culturally right now we have so much conversation around all these different types of masculinity, there are so many prefixes that ended with masculinity and i find it quite tiresome because masculinity itself is not fixed There is no such thing actually as, it's not definable. You can't tell me 10 absolute guaranteed traits of masculinity. Instead what we are talking about are partly biological, partly sociological, partly evolutionary traits associated with men and I do an exercise when i go into

48:59 And I put all of these, I put 10 traits of masculinity on the board. So we're talking about being tall... sorry being strong, being brave, being tough not showing emotion, being athletic, uh being successful, being assertive, being a provider, being a leader. I almost got to ten couldn't quite that's nine. Yeah and what i say is can you point to any of these that are inherently negative? Oh aggressive sorry Can you point to any of these that are inherently negative, that have no positives to them whatsoever? And some people would go like well not showing emotion and aggressive. I would say okay if my dog had died two days ago and i'm really sad...I'm doing work right now this wouldn't have been a very good workshop If I just come here and sat down and cried because my dog's dead so I have to not show emotion right now but that doesn't mean I can't go home and cry later yeah Right okay what about aggressive? Well I was a very bad rugby player

50:02 But I needed to be aggressive to play that, right? I was a much better fast bowler at cricket and i was a prick on the field. It was aggression it helped me so like aggression can also be beneficial but if I'm aggressive all the time... So for me the problem with all of it is and I'm going to add my own prefix which I understand the irony of it's rigid masculinity that's the problem. We tell men there is only one way for you And if you don't hit every single one of these parameters, and they change from different countries and different cultures and stuff. I get that but these are the rules of manhood. If you don't live up to every single one of those then you are somehow a failure but the problem with that is we're guaranteed to fail because you can't be brave and tough and strong and athletic and a leader and assertive all the time it's not possible so he set men up to fail

51:04 So what I say to men is, you have these wonderful traits that have been bestowed upon you from generations. But let's point them in a different direction and let's point them in a direction that works for us as individuals because what I will say is... To my clients for example well done for making it your first therapy session! I know how much courage it took you two get here. I understand that one of the hardest things you'll ever do was making it to this point So now I'm going to keep calling that courage in because it's about to get harder before it gets easier, right? Yeah. I will say two young lads, my mind the single bravest thing you will ever do in your life is put your hand up and ask for help. That's bravery! And actually I was speaking at a conference recently and there was a firefighter in the audience and I said hey man

52:00 It's easier for you to run into a burning building than it is to ask your mates for emotional help, right? And he like whoa and I was like... He nodded and i was like right. Right that's how mad it is so can we take these concepts of being the leader one of the best things I've ever seen in a school was actually always do an assembly with the only organization that does an assembly first where we introduce ourselves Because we don't want to be holier than thou, we're like the opposite. We're like, Don't Be Like Us basically and then these young lads filed in right so the back during the workshop and they start dicking about And this big lad I saw him he's like clonk is these two lads? And he was like listen to this guy! And i'm like that's leadership Yeah So who can be the leader in their male group to say... I'm gonna try to be vulnerable Can we stop being misogynistic? Can we stop being racist? Can we stop being homophobic

53:00 And can we start being more real with each other? Not all the time. Jeez, like you know me and my mate still take the piss out of each other like 90% of the time but that's part of being a man definitely right but 10 percent of the time where we're fully real and also if we're taking a piss on something doesn't land well We have created the space where we can say hey I actually don't want you to use that nickname anymore for example yeah okay fair enough right So let's take these straight, these amazing traits that are associated with masculinity and the irony of course also is that masculinity doesn't equal men because plenty of women have amazing masculine qualities and a lot of men have a lot of amazing feminine qualities. And somehow we see that as a negative so let's take those and let's expand our horizons with them and let's say there isn't just these ten ways, there's infinite ways you can be a man

53:55 But even with these traditional old ideals of masculinity, there is beauty in them that we can harness and move forward with now. So be courageous! Be strong! Be tough! Be a leader! Be assertive but do it in a way that feels right for you and not just in the way that has been expected of you and your forefathers. It's like a personal masculinity. Like owning it, I don't know if you watch much of I'm A Celeb but the uh clearly he's gay right? The guy from Strictly, the Tom guy. I don't know oh okay right very camp in his voice and stuff but also very masculine in the way that he's clearly strong right and he was confident and he was actively playing his role in the social circle

54:48 I'm going to use the word queer, that's appropriate. But and then there was another part of it where you just couldn't help but like him. You couldn't help but like his strength of character and how he came in there and brought a difference to the group. And as I was watching it, I thought yeah that's a gay guy illustrating his masculinity. I just thought he did so well on that show Yeah, because there are infinite numbers of however many men there are. There are that many ways of being a man. Yeah yeah totally totally. Chris absolutely brilliant conversation is there anywhere you people want to send people anything? You want to leave people with about The Men's Therapy Hub or any other work

55:35 Yeah, so two places really. So Men's Therapy Hub dot co dot UK 150 nearly now male therapists who are ready to work with you if you're male I mean they'll also work with most of them if your female too and also our podcast No Man's an Island which is hosted by me and Dr Jet Stone Who is a clinical psychologist based in the US He's going to be launching the U.S version of the site And we're just having conversations like these with interesting people and speaking about manhood masculinity advocating for men As much as you love doing this Jonnie, I love doing that podcast and i will continue to do it. And now and I will get over that 14 episode hump by January. And yeah actually right now we're in the stage of a podcast where it can fly so if you want to support men and if you're like me and consume a lot of podcasts then please add us to your roster and follow us and check us out

56:30 Yeah, we're trying to normalize conversations about male vulnerability as much as we can. Yeah brilliant absolutely brilliant Chris a real pleasure to get to know you and spend more time here together I'll hit the outro and see on the other side Thanks for tuning into The Jonnie Jensen Show be sure to subscribe leave a review and share it with fellow dads Creating the life you deserve starts with you. Get your High Value Man blueprint and join our community of motivated modern dads at highvaluemanproject.com Let's go!