Waking Up To Racism Pt2 - Expert Hangout Podcast

00:00 Waking up to racism part two. In this episode of the Team Superdad podcast, we conclude the waking up to racism expert hangout if you missed the first part go back and check it but if you haven't welcome! You're gonna love this it's going to open your eyes Roll theme. Welcome to Team Superdad! Real dads creating their best lives ever, more time, more money, more fun You are not alone you're on team super dad

00:53 Hey everybody, welcome to the Team Superdad podcast. We are here for an expert hangout this is the second part of the waking up racism expert hang out. Expert Hang Out as you know we get a group people together it's like a roundtable much more back and forth conversation about particular subject that is all interesting value to dads at this time and what could be more pertinent and timely than a conversation about racism If you're listening to this in the future, wow I hope that the world has changed. I hope that we were able to make a difference. I don't mean WE like me and you but i do mean ME and YOU. I do mean all of us uh...and I mean WE as a society

01:32 We as the policy makers, as teachers, as friends cousins all of it everybody no one should go through life with an experience that's different from others because their skin color and like I said in the introduction to the last or so first part of the conversation There are other factors, there are socio-economic conditions. There are other minority groups of people who are suffering or struggling but that's not the conversation right now we're talking about black lives and I didn't know enough...I didn't know enough! I've grown up as a white person clearly but i've grown up not in an inner city area, not in an area with a lot of black people, a few Asian people

02:18 You know certainly minority groups and the world's a bit different now you know, Maidstone which is southeast of London there are more black people here. There's definitely more Asian people and there's also Europeans particularly Eastern Europeans so we are an ever greater and greater mixed community And wherever you are that could look very different. Of course there are communities where white people are in the minority and I hope that we do have many black and Asian members of Team Superdad, if not now then certainly in the future. There's no way that intentionally my drive to attract dads into this group is excluding anybody but that's part of what we have to look into, that's part of what we have to understand

03:07 Communication is our marketing, is our messaging. Does it in any way exclude people? And you know what's weird about that is that when you do your marketing strategy You do look at your target audience and you do look to sort of exclude other people. Team Superdaddy is very much about dads who want more from life Men who are business owners or creating second incomes They wanna have the family and the kids and the holidays and the freedom In life that comes through having their own business So There's certain people who are excluded from that because they don't want those things but they're not, but they're excluded kind of by choice not by their skin color and that's part of what I'm starting to understand about white privilege uh and about how oppressive everyday situations can be too. To the black and Asian community simply by their skin color so if you haven't listened to part one then this is great you can carry on listening to here but also consider going back and listening to it

04:03 The Team Superdad expert hangouts. In fact, all the podcasts are not normally longer than 60 minutes but this one was I didn't want to cut the conversation off and so here we are with part two! I hope you love it i want to invite you to comment ask questions make statements please share this start a watch party and of course in benefiting team super dad feel free to subscribe to our channels Hit the bell on YouTube, get the notifications on Facebook. Make sure that you're plugged into our latest and greatest content let alone all the challenges and events that are coming up The Team Superdad community, The F5 Crew All of our fitness challenges and workshop I'd love to tell you more about them Sign-up, subscribe Get more of our content But right now lets focus on something even more important Waking Up To Racism Part 2 I'll see you on the other side

04:58 The response we're seeing right now is this multi-racial, multi-generational collectivist response. People are saying you know what I don't care what it costs me i don't care if you're going to say that i shouldn't be out here because of Covid. Like Reverend Ashley said before that we started about Lenny Henry And, you know, Frank Bruno. You know? We don't want to have to be the clown in the room anymore. Don't have to be playing any games anymore. Like just accept me for who I am. I am who I am. Understand my story. Respect my story. I respect you. You respect me and see past my skin colour. No no no! Don't disrespect my skin colour

05:53 But see that inside me is a human being, that deserves respect and honor. Just like you deserve respect and honor, you know? Level playing field. Yeah level playing field! And that's coming from no... We'll know this expression Tony from Landmark stuff, but it's like not like an always already listening. So before the person has said something done something you know, like you've decided who they are before they even, at the moment you saw them so it is to remove that always-already listening

06:33 And perhaps even more than that, to see it as exciting. To be like great I've got a real mix of people that i'm interviewing today and I wonder who's going to step up and be that creative solution or that genius is gonna fix this problem? Rather than looking at the other way like oh who's gonna be the one that falls out of this process and putting associations on that I just wanted to thank Jonathan Collins and Darren Galvin and Law Law for their comments on the Facebook page. It's great to have you here, Law says You've just described covert racism to the TRL, The Silent Confident Killer Thank God you'll never concede to be part of the victimization program

07:14 Other people just really grateful for the content. Jonathan Collins says he's from Leicester and he so gratefully grew up with Jamaicans, Indians and Albanians in every creed and culture So thank you all for watching keep asking questions and sharing appreciate it Blimey Errol! Tony anything you can add or feel like you want to comment on what Errol just said? Yeah thank You Errol because it you know so much has changed And its um really surprised me I asked my stepdaughter how does she feel about the whole thing. She's 23 and she says she is tired, and you know people of our generation we're tired

08:02 You know, from the time we had the COVID situation in Wuhan and fingers started pointing at black people and discrimination that was going on over in that country. I knew this was coming at some point you know, the fingers being pointed at us I just want you to be in denial of the whole thing and just keep my head down and, you know, be happy in my predominantly black church. And the more things started to happen and conversations about a black man being more prone The attention was being pointed at me as a black man. I'm 52, I fit the criteria to have COVID. I was asymptomatic two weeks before so i was quite ill and then this whole George Floyd thing... At first I thought do I have to deal with this?

08:57 But I don't have a choice. I've got a son, you know? I've got children...I've got the whole church! You know when you do a Zoom meeting with your church and the elders, the older ladies said they cried And they're crying over that situation and you know the pain that you carry on behalf of them. You feel convicted somehow to say something, to speak out against it not in anger but just to say okay you're hurting me. We've all been hurt and we need to explain

09:34 What And begin to diagnose, I'm not saying that the white community are the doctors but in order for us to understand and begin to walk towards a solution. You know it's just really for us to have a dialogue where we're saying this is what's happening what we've been experiencing who we are you know it's too you know the reason why people are angry um you know if you look at a child who self-harming

10:14 And we can use that as a parallel to, you know, youths killing each other. Black youths killing each other. Self-harming there's something wrong right? And so you look into that and, you know, you look at a rape victim and they say they've been raped. You don't listen. You know? You say oh okay it's fine, you'll be fine. There are many victims who you don't listen or believe them. Or a child who has been abused and nobody will listen. I've been in that experience and nobody listens and you feel like you're being stifled. It's all downhill Personally for me, all I want is to be seen and to be heard. It's as simple as that

10:59 You know, so when I speak people listen. And I don't have to make you listen but it's that respect and mutual respect you know when we speak to each other, when we talk to each other and to see me as a human being not be afraid of me the moment i open my mouth. I can't help the way I speak or you know that I can project my voice you know I sing so I can project my voice but is all that time having What are the clothes that I'm wearing? For baptism ministers, for example. We don't normally wear a collar and black shirt or whatever to any engagement but as a Black minister I would need to otherwise I would be overlooked in certain places. Yeah got it! So if iIm doing a funeral I'll wear the whole garb

11:54 Because I know that people will not look at me or pay any attention to me. But as soon as i put that collar on, that's what I have to do. I'm a normal driving license it's reverend because I can't just say oh um I'm a reverend and go yeah whatever. It's true! That's what I have to have to do so that I don't have to enter these conversations of trying to explain who I am You know, it's those experiences. And yes we do keep... I do keep my head down. I've worked hard and worked through college And managed to get my degree in theology and it was hard, you know because I had...I was one of those who grew up and thought no chance. I can't have a degree that's for those posh people out there you know? And I fought! I got my degree at age 50 You know and that was a major achievement for me might not be for anybody else but it was a major achievement for me

12:53 And to have those goals and keep your head down and believe in, you know. As I say to all the people in the black community and anybody else, especially women in ministry just do what you are called to do in life and to do it well. And know that we have things that oppress us And we still have to fight through. The good thing about slavery is that we have that tenacity and strength to actually fight through, and people might say oh well that's from your ancestors but I believe it's in our DNA to keep fighting and keep fighting through

13:33 and to keep showing a positive image. And most black people do show a positive image, and we want to be examples to our younger generations I'm not just a minister solely because God has called me and i've done the study etc... I'm doing it so that our young people as well People can aspire to anything that they believe in and yes, they will get their challenges. They will experience some form of racism. Some will fight through that someone notice it and there will need counseling with some of the stuff that they go through but is for us not to stop believing that we actually belong and that we can breathe the same space as everybody else that God has created on this earth

14:19 Can I ask you a question, Jonnie? Yeah go for it buddy. Flip it around a bit we could make an assumption that we understand white culture because we're brought up in it and we all watch EastEnders and Brookside and Coronation Street and the Bailon... We're British right How would you as a white man, how would you describe your ethnic culture and what do you love about your culture or which was different? I'm the classic tick the box on the form. You know i'm white caucasian, i'm british-white caucasian

15:09 You know, I don't have a lot of family in America and America when you speak to people it's very easy for them to say oh i'm half Irish, a quarter English and a quarter German. They just go back and they like all the grandmas grandparents now immigrate immigrants and that's who they are whereas clearly anyone in Britain can say they're a flipping one-eyed Viking or something like that but I consider myself British And actually probably English, you know. Since you asked the question I probably consider myself certainly more English than I do British and maybe that's some sporting thing as well You know...I'm a bit of a royalist. I'm happy with our traditions, you know That side of being British When i look at politics and stuff, I am conscious and conscientious when I vote

16:06 I feel like i've got too much going on in my life to worry too much about the news and everything else, in between elections. But I vote locally and nationally and make a big deal when people around me don't. In terms of my pride...I think it's easy as a British person or English person to be like oh well you know, war has won the war and we stood up for democracy And we explored the world and you know, but then actually if you start digging into that history. We did explore the world but took it over! I think historically this slave subject... You know, I read an article today which I happened to search up after I followed a vein through the internet and it said in 2018

17:07 The British taxpayer made its last payments on a slave tax where we had to, the British government did a deal with this with slave owners to pretty much buy the freedom of their slaves and it took like 100 years to pay off. And it was, people can search up the article. It says 2018 an article on The Guardian and it said that the Treasury's tweet shows slavery is still misunderstood and it was in 2018 did you know in 1883 Britain used twenty million forty percent of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves in the Empire? The amount of money borrowed for the Slavery Abolition Act was so large that wasn't paid off until 2015

17:54 Which means that many living British citizens helped pay to end the slave trade. So like when I was at school, we studied... We studied the Romans, we studied World War One, we studied one of the kings you know but it's very much modern history and like you think about historical impact right this period slavery and racism like that should be the thing that gets taught in history as a way to bridge gaps, to heal harms and to broaden the understanding. You know? And so I'm trying not stray too far from the question...I'm proud to be English and British but perhaps not so sure why these days. If anything

18:49 The media muddies that water so much. We're not allowed to be proud to be British, you know like or we're not very little pride in any of our communities but we are encouraged to be proud about when England were playing football and when the Olympics are on or I don't know...I can't really think of anything else but yeah and when there's a 50th anniversary of the war or something like that but if you go back much further than What is there to be proud of? You could say, okay engineering. But I think that we need to revisit what we are proud of and part of that statue being torn down in Bristol the other night you know i think there is an awakening that needs to happen and start to question some of those things that we've honored in the past and not to clear up our history because to judge previous generations on our

19:47 I'm Comic relief and children in need and all those programs. And we'll watch, and will cry and will be moved by children have been abused or orphans in Africa Or... We'll all start raising money because they've got a walk 10 miles to school without any shoes on which is all solid it needs to be brought up but like why the hell isn't it ten hours of What it's like to be discriminated against and if we're going to cry about something, let's cry about that. Can you relate to the time when someone discriminated against your culture in a harmful way or you felt it harmful? On a personal level and this is kind of macro situation being a teenager in Chicago when I used to go visit my family are Irish so some of the families

20:51 I was on the beach with some of the kids that were lifeguards or some of the people that we went drinking with. Some of them were just kind a little bit meathead and it was still IRA stuff, um and there was...I'm not going to mention his name of course but i can remember one guy and his brothers you know who were proper single meowters like you f***ing English you know where you know like IRA type stuff So that's probably the time when I felt most persecuted, but I also experienced in that moment people standing up for me. And what was gonna be the other one? I said...I got mugged at a rave once by about eight black blokes they just kind of circled me you know and we're at a rave right so easy picking! But it was just a case

21:51 Empty your pockets, give us everything in your pockets. And it was like what the hell's going on? And then later on in the night I spoke to four or five other people and they all had same experience, same group of guys that kind of moved through this room of 2000 people and you know how many... It doesn't take much to put someone who is off their nuts up! To give them everything in their pocket which in itself was probably a stick of gum 20 quid but So I think, you know in those two examples. I can speak very lucidly about personal experiences and how intimidating that was and

22:32 And how that has framed some of my experiences moving into the future. So they're one-off scenarios, not as Ola said to me a day 1000 cuts, not as someone in a primary school I spoke to a woman this week her 10 year old son stood up for his mate at school another ten year old being bullied because he's black about being black by some kids in his school and like what? That's happening. So my mind just boggles at where that kid got that from to come there and be that way? But the point I was making is that for people, black people as it's becoming really apparent to me every step of their life stage has been one experience no not all! There have been hundreds experiences in every life stage and then you're there as a grown man talking to your children telling them like...I talk to my kids about going to school if you're picked on do this

23:31 You know, and when they get older I'll be like if you go to a party do this. But it's become apparent to me that how a black person would speak to their kid about that what should you do at school and what we should do if you're a party is going to be completely different and probably way more be careful and watch out and like so they're actually... So that father or that mother is instilling into their child level of be careful watch out! It's not gonna be okay which I'm like hang on a minute Why should a black parent have to say something different to their children about what it's going to be like when they go out the park later or where he goes to go to party later? I'm just, that's my level of awakening. I'm like when is that gonna stop? When is it gonna be yeah watch out when you go to party because don't be sick on someone and make sure you have a good time like and that's it not watch out right I can't

24:31 I hope that changes. And in the same way, you know, if my kids are going to a party they're not fearful of a group of black lads like why should it be the group of black lads that they're afraid? Oh, I don't know whether that was circumstantial or whether it's pushed on us by the media and movies Or the fact that that's the community they're in and that's the circumstances they're in because if, if that is the community therein and the circumstances they're in I don't think that's okay either. Why have they grown up with that perspective just like you guys were saying? Like grow up give it your best go for it but you can achieve anything great surely yeah some people are going to end up nicking and robbing and stealing but why has it got be one community or not another or why we've gotta perceive it that it's one community and not another this is my level of awakening

25:22 I think you're one of the few people that has actually said, you know a group of black lads or a group of black people. Normally you hear a gang off and that's what i normally hear a gang off no matter how young it's a gang so if could be five we could be 10 15 just having fun You hear the word gang rather than a group. Those little things you hear and go, why are there suddenly a gang? It's just one of those things I heard you saying and it's not like picking this that or the other it is something as a black man that I've learned. And the other thing he was talking about

26:08 Things that you worry about. As a parent, my son in primary school during the last couple of years he said dad mum can I walk home from school please and you know even though we said yes in my head was like oh no way! I can't deal with that. My head...I didn't know that at the time until he asked and I thought I can't do this. The idea I'm going to start with a story about my son.

26:51 I wrote up to him and said, do you want some of my chicken? You know a piece of my chicken. And he said no because he understood that he had been educated at school in class about county lines and how it's done so hadn't he had that Maybe you would have taken that chicken, but he knew he had chicken at home anyway. But it's those things that... You worry about your children having to negotiate and as a parent is like what do you do? You can pray and teach your children not to live in fear. Scripture tells us God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power love and sound mind

27:35 That's what we have to keep teaching our children and things do happen. But we can't allow any of our children, black or white, to be living in fear and neither should we be living in fear either. Yeah that is a level of awareness I think everyone needs take on like that as a base sort of it's like some of these things are baselines for humans and we have to dig into why that wouldn't be happening for all of us I think like you said, it's fear. There is a fear of the other. There is a fear of losing some sort of power or status. A fear of loosing position. You know what? This whole immigration thing and you see all these videos going out saying that white people are gonna be the minority and so there's a fear of those kinds of things

28:36 I think my heart and what our show at our church is about reconciliation, so racial reconciliation. So having conversations like these with people who are not like you and hearing stories... Like you just shared with us Jonnie about your experience growing up in those kind of... sure if we spoke longer about it there'd be some more stories too. Yeah well actually we've all got stories and all got journeys We all need to be forgiven and that's when that trauma, that pain is released. That we can see more clearly and approach situations with more confidence because some of the hang-ups and chips on shoulder are because we're carrying around experience or pain from experiences from years gone

29:28 There's that school teacher that said this or said that. There is the person on your street who threw that at you, there are those friends in the park who spat at you and bullied you and all of those stories often hurt people hurt people so I think we've got to be gentle with each other And where possible, where people are willing to have conversations that are going to help each other grow through this. So I'm really keen to do more things like this to see... To help leaders of organizations do these kinds of things with their teams especially those that are in diverse communities or leading diverse organizations and teams to create an inclusive environment and culture there's understanding

30:18 I've had school teachers contact me and ask me about content for their students because they recognize now that this is really putting on heartstrings, this whole George Floyd thing. And everyone wants to be on the right side of history. Students are not sure about it or they're uncertain how to respond to it. They want to be on the right side of it but how? How should they respond? There's a need for people like us on this call today, all three of us to say look we know you don't understand. We know you don't get it but here is the opportunity. Here is the possible moment of breakthrough here and if I'm thinking about my children, my kids who are coming after me and them not being in an environment where there's a culture fear

31:07 or culture of any kind of sense of limitation being imposed on them because of the color of their skin. They're gonna feel so free, they should be feeling like I can be the Prime Minister in this country you know? I can be at the highest position in this country! Yeah and I just wanted to say you know the part about forgiveness We are misguided to think that forgiveness is overnight and it's a one-time thing. And you know, as Jesus explains we have to forgive 70 times 7 meaning that we have to forgive over and over and over so even when this whole George Floyd incident happened everything is regurgitated and you have to continuously forgive but also how do deal with it? How do we process this everybody's hurting

32:06 How do we create a safe environment for us to have a dialogue and to negotiate, you know through the politics through our various areas that we live in. How do we negotiate and educate each other? You know I think at first i thought to myself why would I have to educate anybody they should know! And I think a lot of people think that A lot of black people think well they should know I shouldn't have to tell them because I'm feeling the pain But yeah, we do have to educate and we have to educate each other about different cultures. And not only that you know there are isms within our own sub-cultures as well between Jamaicans and Africans and whoever they're their ism's and we have to work past it and see each other for who we are and to respect each other's cultures as well in this. We're not going to get everything right

33:02 Jonnie, you're not going to say the right things at times. And for many people I speak to everybody we're not going to say the right things at a right time. We ain't perfect okay? And we may speak out of anger and frustration and get things wrong. But the most important thing is to really just work towards having a dialogue, keep that dialogue going until we have a safe space for us to grow, learn and breathe. Absolutely! Where do you think those breakthroughs are gonna come? Is it gonna come

33:43 I was thinking about this today, right? And this is really a civil rights issue in the same way as it was for when Martin Luther King and his and that generation were protesting. People are protesting for civil rights, and the changes came when laws were changed so segregation laws would change for example And there are laws we've got to be clear about which civil rights we're asking for right? But there needs to be a change So for example We've gone from having segregated schools

34:37 Where even the church stood up and said, segregated school. God hates when schools are... kids are educated together of different races You know I saw a speech that someone said back in those times and we've gone from segregated schools now to Schools were allowed to come together but the education is still segregated What's taught in the schools The history we're taught The philosophy of education doesn't bear into any consideration the cultural backgrounds of those in the schools. It's a one-size fits all school culture, so if we're going to create a culture of understanding and equality then there has got to be equality in education? There has gotta be equality in education! In the classroom first and foremost

35:36 So that means that every child needs to understand, either you're going to give them the full history of the British Empire and Great Britannia and all that. And Churchill or... You can't just say Churchill said never, never, never give up! And leave it there He said a lot of things, he didn't like a lot of people who were not white If you want to be real about it, you know what I mean? And so we've got to give the whole picture. So would need to see some change happen there. We need to see it to be mandatory for leaders to demonstrate cultural competency

36:25 Leaders in institutions, in the health service I'm thinking. In politics, in education, in business and in faith-based organizations In entertainment, leaders of organization have to be able to demonstrate cultural competency. Is that a better principle than positive discrimination or do the two sit together?

37:02 Well, now there's positive discrimination and positive regard. Like I don't know that I believe in either of those to be honest with you because um...I do believe in merit. Cultural competency has someone who is culturally competent like someone who is emotionally intelligent or in a cultural way so they're able to understand and perceive The nuances in someone's culture and be able to relate to them based on their background, their story, their journey. And not diminish or disregard them because of those things So as we're talking now like I'd say Jonnie you know we connected straight away back in 2010 under program we were on and You know we've had a friendship. I stayed at your house Yeah

38:01 And you're at my wedding. Yeah, and there's a level of cultural competency that you have as a white man that makes our friendship easy. We can have difficult conversations and heart to hearts about sensitive things. Yeah. It's not an issue but if someone is in authority or leadership who doesn't have the ability has no desire to then they shouldn't be leading in this generation They're dangerous and they perpetuate the situation. Yeah, subtly sometimes even obviously overtly at others but probably the ones that are subtler more dangerous yeah? And we'd probably say to people I'm not racist

38:50 It's just easy not to have too many black people in the office. Or something like that! Exactly, exactly they don't want to upset the applecart they want to be politically correct They want to please the other people who are you know it's boy that whole thing there Like, I tell you. We have to work hard out here because there are some places that opportunities like they're just not gonna come to me. That's the bottom line You know? But i have to grasp for it and I have to make my mark. I have to...like you're respected as a black person if you've achieved something

39:33 If you've written some books, if you've built something done something impacted something. If you're competent then you can get a respect to a level it's easier but that's hard you gotta do that I know but still some of that is like oh look at him Isn't it amazing? He's done all that and he's black. It is sometimes I think when you see the people on TV, they're like oh we found a black lawyer let's see what he has to say like it's...I don't know maybe perhaps other people don't see that perhaps it is really true but it's obviously

40:15 Let's go to a football match, go down the villa or go down wherever and you'll see 60 000 people there maybe a few hundred are black and they love their players. They love their favorite black striker who's scoring goals for them and they're cheering him and shouting his name but when they go home and having their chats around the dinner table about black people it's a different conversation There's prestige, there's accomplishment. He is a different kind of black guy. Yeah he's all right! So where do we know? I think we've kind of touched on this already but you know with all these protests happening um... You know i hope it bugs me and as i know this not going to change but drives me mad when they start the news with them tearing down

41:17 statue and chucking it in the river. And then we'll eventually get on to the fact that there was 20,000 people peacefully marching earlier on in the day that bugs me that they focus on the fear and the sensationism rather than the actual message of what's possible but what do you think is possible? Where can this go from here? Is this the breakthrough? Is it really? And is it like a perfect time? Has Did we have to have COVID to be able to have this? This year's been crazy.

41:54 Brexit and Iran in America and China. It's like this weird thing going on where all these, the environmental movement with Greta Thunberg and all that was then it's like so many movements happening now a really big one! Like the biggest one is upon us you know I love the idea that for anyone who doesn't believe in God he really is sitting there Try this on if you feel like... Have a go at that, if you're going to keep messing with this thing that I gave you.

42:30 What's going to happen? You can't tell, it is a boiling pot that has been boiling for 400 plus years. Something was going to boil over at some point We could say that it was inconvenient because we got Covid but its happened and where we have to deal with in some shape or form I do believe that it is great that we're having this dialogue together because for me personally, I feel safe to share how I feel and what's been going on. And to listen to yourself Jonnie sharing your experiences. White people have had their experiences of being victims of crimes etc

43:18 And just hearing the different perspectives, we all can contribute to each other in conversation and create something new. It doesn't mean that it's going to be created overnight but we need to be committed into entering this dialogue until it is eradicated Look at the elephant in the room or we could ride that elephant out knowing that it's going to break a few windows, etc. The elephant needs to come out of the room and there is racism and the culture that embroils as well We need to have...we're all together in this country I speak for this country, we are all together And we have to live together But how we live together Like I keep saying

44:05 How do we ensure that we all breathe the same space, that we so rightly need to do? And yes for black people they will always tell you have to work twice as hard and get four times much more rejection. We still have to press through but it doesn't stop us having that conversation with our counterparts to discuss how do we move forward in love and respect Yeah, and actually ask that question. Like consciously ask that question like I've done this week to consciously ask that question. Raheem Sterling and everything he did in the football sort of sphere earlier this year...I was like okay that's good, that's great! Like what he's done there but didn't take it on board any deeper than that. And particularly around was it the World Cup when he was getting a bit of stick?

45:02 Actually, what was his motivation? It wasn't his motivation because he's a famous footballer. Somewhere in amongst what he's done, he's come from his experience that his dad passed on to him and shared with him what it was like growing up. His experience at school, his experience... And then he said enough is enough but people and the media particularly hear it as oh someone's tipped over his toys? Like this was something that happened to him last week no no this is something that happened Actually putting his career on the line to some degree by saying, I am going to say something.

45:49 look at ourselves and think, okay well where are those subtleties? What can I experience in my life what do i see around me what... Where am I going to say let's organize something. Let's do something in town let's do something in my cub group let's make a podcast where we focus on this subject like let's not let this just become last week's news Yeah yeah yeah I agree you know I think We've got to pray number one right Obviously I'm a pastor so I'm a Christian and i believe in the power of prayer. I believe we've got to pray together, I believe that the church could take a lead on this as well in the sense of modeling to the world into society how we reconcile with the best example in Christ of him of Christ reconciling us back to God then the next step for me is awareness

46:52 Like we've been talking today and sharing stories as Tony, as you said, as Jonnie said there needs to be awareness because often time there isn't. There is just not an awareness one of my friends described it to me as feel like I'm at a funeral. He says I feel like I'm at a funeral. And don't know the person that's being buried have no idea who they are now. I thought that was a really really you know, concise way of describing it And so we need to work together to create an awareness by sharing stories and understanding that we cannot be colorblind. Because most people have been taught to be color blind, then accept people as human. That makes sense on one level but actually you're discounting the host history in the reality of the experience of life of that person So we've got having a creating awareness, knowledge with our awareness We're not trying to condemn people

47:51 We're not trying to put shame or like a negative shame and guilt on white people, or on anybody that matter. What we're trying to do is bring it to the surface so we can collectively and communally acknowledge it and repent confess it forgive each other and repent of that paradigm of those thoughts those behaviors those attitudes and repent and take a different course And then we can begin to repair relationships and bring healing and bring just a new level of restoration really. So I think it is possible, i think the church can lead on it. I'd encourage anyone listening just to read up get some of the resources that are out there There's a great book by Latasha Morrison called Be The Bridge another really good book called White Fragility as well

48:51 But so many great books out there, as you can imagine. They're all best sellers now on Amazon but go out and read some content under subject matter and be informed. Yeah watch stuff Netflix I've talked about the 13th if reading is not someone's thing there's so much content out there today podcasts Audiobooks, like any of those books that could be listened to on an audiobook I'm sure. Netflix you watch one thing it will spin you onto the next thing people that watch this watch that. We're gonna sit and watch garbage on TV might as well watch something get challenged tonight. Some crazy crap on TV right? Zombies and gangs and just stuff

49:41 I'm okay with that. I'd like to keep it a bit more comedy based, but for anyone picking what to watch over this next six to 12 weeks pick something that could broaden your perspective pick something that could teach you something you've not seen before That could have you look at your neighbor in a different way That can have you listen to the next thing Raheem Sterling says on TV in a new perspective That can make you look at the bus driver in a different way. I think that's what everyone responsibility has to be in this moment is to say, where's my compass? What am I thinking? What do I know? What are these people going on about? Have I really taken a chance to find out because otherwise without being extreme like

50:27 You know, people often ask right now. It's always awkward bringing up Hitler right? But people often ask how the bloody hell did he get to power and do all that stuff because not enough people pay attention apart from the socio-economic conditions bottom line is not enough people paid attention to what was going on before it was too late and in a kind of reverse situation here there we are in a time at the moment where if enough people pay attention then we can propel this situation forward not hold it back Yeah, Jonnie I just wanted to ask you how do you feel? What are your thoughts after our conversation so far. I do worry a little bit. I think the average British person is just a bit crap, it's not my problem like they might get upset about it and outraged about it for a day

51:31 I think that the average, you know and i think Brexit is an example of that. I'm not here to say whether leaving or staying was the right thing or not but I do think the degree to which people looked at what was the right thing or not for many people was not enough Or they were very right about their view rather than going and finding out You know, the number of people I saw on TV like well we lost our right to choose in 1950 and i'm going to take it back now. And what about the 50 years in between? Like and I think that's everybody's responsibility right now um...I think that black communities as you know as you pointed out Errol, my version of inner city east London black communities like is just

52:28 I'm going to be talking about the And so I'm going to kind of repeat myself now, but i want people to take a today perspective and say well what do I want the future to look like? What do I want... you know. I don't think in normal way

53:10 I've not grown up this way, you know. It's a mildly funny story one of my good friends Farah Pakistani guy we were at uni in my first year and him and i were walking across the university campus And for some reason we were talking about going to the shops and I said about going into the pack shack like just made some slang reference to pakistani packet And he's like, excuse me. Oh sorry I don't mean you! That was a moment for me that was a moment coming from like... Like i'm a worldly person but there was something in my dialogue that it took a mate, a Pakistani mate to say to me yeah because you can't say that and so

54:09 I took a step forward, whether it was a small step forward or there's a monumental step forward. Whether it paved the way for other steps forward. I'm not sitting here like priors like oh I'm amazing because far from and in sharing that I give other people the opportunity to realize where they've not been all right and it's not about being PC. I really hear that from what you were saying earlier Errol. You know mates should be able to banter with each other You know? Yeah, we do. I got like it should be okay that i can talk about my big black mate Errol or you know like there's a degree to which mates if an Irish bloke and English bloke and Scottish bloke like the classic joke... If they're on a building site being mates together so long as that is what's going on they probably would take the piss out of each other from where they came from or how they spoke or whatever but

55:01 There's a level to which all of us need to know where it all fits in and how it's alright, and whether is offensive or not offensive. Or take responsibility. And then at the level that we're okay with that in our own community and in the circle We've got to look outside of that Why is that person getting shot in the street? Or why is that someone in the football stadium screaming at a football player because they missed the penalty and using that kind of language. And what kind of education we need to go take where, what direction we need to take education in such that friend of mine and her 10 year old boy isn't having

55:39 I mean, well maybe we'll always have to defend our mates and that's okay. But not it have it be some you know really deeply racially motivated intent like where that little 10 year old is now suddenly believing that black people are not as good as him or they're...I don't know like still I was at a dinner right? A girlfriend of mine when I was about 17 we were at her house and the parents had some South African friends over He was like going, it's scientifically proven black people have got smaller brains. Right? So this is in 1991 sort of thing, right around apartheid and stuff like that so in my life I've experienced those awkward moments where you're sat at the dinner table going did he just... are we serious? Are you hearing this or a time in America where we went to visit my cousin at university

56:37 We were all quite drunk, but one of the lads group of about six was having breakfast at about four o'clock in the morning. One of the lads was directly racially abusing the waitress and it was Probably the most uncomfortable experiences in my life where I just didn't know what to do. I didn't know, I was...I don't know where I was? I was drunk! I was in a caf on some university campus and so getting up and walking out I didn't really have any like where am I gonna go?! And eventually the conversation came around to enough of us saying you've got stop that's bang out of order like what are you doing but

57:14 But still, like these are just confusing in my brain trying to rationalize and answer your question. I'm conscious of like wobbling on about it but i hope in sharing this so it makes it okay for other people to say i'm confused or that i don't think i might have said something wrong in the past or i hope i'm not now Or I'm going to watch something and iIm gonna realize, oh my gosh people are being shot. People are being suffocated. There's this many people in prison that shouldn't be there so anyway...I've said that before but where I think it's gonna go is I hope that in towns across the country people peacefully protest. That in random situations people take a knee as a statement of

58:05 This is where I'm at, you know. Whether it be on TV whether it be the start of a council meeting whether in like...I don't think people need to make outrageous gestures but I do think that the more we can normalise and new normal then will see change so we won't see stupid headlines on newspapers that we won't see the news leading with gang smashing stuff up when 200,000 people were protesting peacefully. I think media is just a horrible thing as well. I think that's another whole big subject. What next in your journey Jonnie? Next on my journey... Where do you go from here and he talked about the confusion like i'm not crystal clear what the confusion is um where are you going from here

59:10 I may be confusing the conversation in a wrong direction, but um...I don't. I kind of make a point about saying oh i don't really watch the news. I checked out other news after my divorce and and my mental health at that time. I found the news so negative that I stopped it around COVID when it started. I had the news on. I'm in a few whatsapp groups where I feel like I'm getting information from source and its fine And I carry on checking that source of news but i stopped with the media because it was all just so going round in circles, just drivel about it. So where this subject goes...I'd like to think that I will continue to find out more so I've got a better perspective and can talk more lucidly about the subjects so when pushed I can give an opinion that matters or makes a difference

1:00:10 For Team Superdad, you know it would no way more occur to me that I would have more or less black people in team super dad for a reason other than they just hadn't heard about it. So I don't think from a business perspective... well maybe? I wouldn't naturally choose a coach or an expert to come and speak to the Team Superdad community based on their colour Might I think now, have I had enough black people speak to my community? Maybe it maybe I would. Maybe I do that in the same way that I might think about women have enough if I had an event on

1:00:50 Would I look and see, is there a good representation of women speaking at my event? Even though it's dad's event. I for one believe particularly with my attitude towards my future and my family, I want women involved in my life. I want to fall back in love. And I don't want to proudly march on single. But I think that maybe there's a level of consciousness for me in that if I'm trying And mentor and lead men in a certain direction. I might be more aware now of have i got around it, a rounded view but then even then you know as far as asking you to come and do it Errol when it launches you know like you just beyond that list anyway so

1:01:38 It's difficult to say what I think next. As far as my children go, I'm encouraging them and making sure that they watch bits of news we've talked about that. I think that it is important that our kids aren't naturally going to be interested but i think its important that they are and also being careful at the same time because my children are not noticing colour in school certainly not in my kids' school there is a broad ethnic mix in my childrens' schools even in sunny Maidstone so will continue to make sure that they don't see a distinction between their friends based on color or country of origin. That's for certain and then what could, what more could I do? You know in the London podcasting community i've challenged other podcasters to do something like this and I think it would be, I think it would be amiss of me not to continue in some way to make sure

1:02:41 That this subject stays on the agenda, basically. I think that's certainly for me... that's where i can see the difference I can make. Yeah, I'd like to acknowledge you for actually bringing this to the table and inviting both of us to have this conversation As difficult as it is for you, even for me it was difficult to have the courage to come here and share my thoughts and feelings.

1:03:18 You kind of worry at the back of your head. For some people they don't worry at all, for me I worry well is this going to make me a target now? But regardless i've always been the target you know I realize and when you stand up for the gospel Please stand up for injustice. You are a target, you know and I always say this to people what's the worst thing that is going to happen if you do this? And the worst thing that can happen if you die. I know it sounds really morbid but thats the worse thing that can happen now that you know Just do what you need to do, live life fully. To be able to express that to people and to be a positive influence, to believe in what you believe and knowing what you want like asking new questions... The thing for everybody is

1:04:13 ask themselves, what is it that you want while you're on this earth? What is it you want from this situation and the easy answer is to say I just wanted to go away. It will soon blow over, that's not the answer. But as a human being seeing people and hearing people what is it that you want to do? What is it that you want to contribute to this community, to this earth as a human being and some will contribute very small things and others will contribute in a large way but there isn't time for anybody You know, fortunately or unfortunately.

1:04:59 We have to address it. But I think for self-examination, you're having questions bombarded at you psychologically in your head at the moment about the things that you've done and the things that you want to do and is is to engage in that dialogue with yourself and with other people to sort this horrible mess out. And there's a same thing with the governments and the councils and the black community white community everybody's like What is it that you really want? And one of the things about this pandemic is that we've been isolated and we've had lockdown. So, we're thinking about the things are really important to us whether we wanted to or not our marriages, our children, our work, jobs everything We have had to really focus on and think what do we want out if it how do we negotiate that? It's the same thing with racism

1:05:56 We can't avoid it. You know, we've been in lockdown and we have to address that issue whether you want to or not so I...you know It's how do we move on? What do i want for my children? What do I want for my wife? what do I want from my community? How can there be a contribution to both black and white community? And I have to ask those questions for myself too Well, that tips into the whole black lives matter. All lives matter you know as a white person hearing that argument I'm like we're not talking about that right now! We're talking about Black Lives Matter That doesn't mean that all lives don't matter and it's like we're on this subject right now Don't confuse it by bringing in other subjects here Like of course all lives matter but actually if we don't start with...

1:06:51 Right now, this is very apparently where we're focused. And you know if we can focus on that then by virtue of that all lives matter because if you say this isn't important right now when there's videos someone having their flipping neck squished until the life is sucked out them then clearly that's where we're focused so wow thank you guys I really I'm kind of glad you said that Tony, because I wasn't apprehensive but even things like America and my family in Chicago and part of American immigration now. You share your social media channels and I'm sure a computer machine runs through it

1:07:38 You know, so I'm like oh what am i saying and is that going to impact me visiting my family? And so they're real things. Like I don't know...I'm pretty certain that I haven't been the same way that Errol went shopping in Coventry he was pretty certain that he hadn't done anything wrong and his ass worked when it gets home for him! So we've always you know there's levels of What am I saying? Levels to which we are concerned about everything that we do and say, and i think that's the important thing as well. That we can... We have the confidence to push past that because if none of us do then nothing will change! And if all of us can just a bit then.. Then the power of 1 million 2 million 3 million people just pushing a bit oh my gosh hopefully that will bring some change! That's right! Anything uh anything I've missed anything you want to say before we wrap this up guys

1:08:40 I just want to say to anyone listening that whether you're black or white, your child made in the image of God. Don't let anybody make you feel inferior don't let anyone look down on it and intimidate you. We have a choice to decide whether we hear about white privilege and all these different things A lot of that is a concept that is based upon my interpretation or my reading. Of the other individual, I can see somebody as better than me and myself as inferior. I can see the person as weak and actually ignorant you know so

1:09:29 What I'm saying is that you choose how you respond, and I choose how I respond to any perception of prejudice or injustice. It either builds me, grinds me down, or it builds me up. I'm encouraging us all to let these things build us up. Let's grow stronger out of struggle comes growth out of struggle comes growth so by the grace of God we'll all learn from this will all grow stronger will We'll all be gracious to each other and respect and honor each other's humanity, if you like. And come through and come out of this as better people by the grace of God. Yeah

1:10:13 And it's going to be hard work, whether you're black or white. It is all going to be hard work and that's okay as long as we're working together and working together with a common goal which is to respect humanity, respect each other and I simply want to love you and be loved back that's it! That is wow...that's beautiful Tony Every human can get to that point. You know, you hold your baby, you hold your child, you look at the child, you love it, it looks back at you, it loves you back like that level of innocence with each other as human beings is a beautiful goal to imagine Tony Awesome! Well remind us about your individual churches I think its important if anyone's near to you and they've felt a connection with you tonight then they can come an check you out

1:11:12 Yeah, so I'm Tony Ashley and my church is Stoke Newington Baptist Church and obviously we're not open. But yeah you know go on to the Facebook page or onto my Facebook page and connect with me then we can include you in our services that'd be lovely really great! Perfect i'll put some... In London yes? Yes, I'll get some links off here I'll put it in the show notes and in some of the live stream comments as well which we can share. And Errol where's the bridge Yeah, the bridge is in Harborne in Birmingham. Our website is www dot the bridge dot family and all are welcome we currently meet online just drop us a line by email or on Twitter or Facebook The Bridge Church Birmingham and will welcome you with open arms awesome

1:12:06 To everyone listening, thank you. Team Superdad is a community and program for dads who want more with play more be more make more and I hope this conversation has challenged us all in many areas to take a look at ourselves, to take a look our attitudes, to take i think most importantly to let take a look at how much we know about this subject and you could say all subjects in that but right now we're talking about Racial equality, we're talking about civil rights. We're talking about the generational impact across communities and if you have a view on what's going on today don't just make it about today take it upon yourself to wise up to educate to learn up Errol shared some books I'll get some of the things that I've watched on Netflix

1:12:58 Pay attention, dig slightly deeper than the news and when the opportunity comes do something a bit beyond your comfort zone to be one of the many that brings some change about in this world that we live in today. Thank you Jonnie Awesome I'll press stop and hold tight We'll do our goodbyes afterwards Team Superdad out! It blew me away. I hoped it was going to be of value and it was, I hoped it was gonna make a difference to me personally so perhaps I could start to make a difference to other people. I'm not out there as a vigilante expecting to change the world but I want to be someone who's conscious, I wanna be someone who can hold a conversation and start to understand exactly what's going on

1:13:50 For our black and Asian friends, for people that we work with. Our work colleagues are our neighbors and not just be oblivious I mean I learned this week... excuse me! I learned this week that the slave trade went on for 300 years from the 1500's to the 1800's there as the slave trade existed That blew my mind It's it's not mentioned is not taught How can something not be indoctrinated into a culture of society when it lasted for that long? I mean the Industrial Revolution is only about 100 years old. We've only had mobile phones for 20 years, I mean 300 years are you kidding me?! So wherever you're at whatever you're up to get informed! I hope you enjoyed this podcast The Expert Hangout go and find some more watch

1:14:43 Watch 14th, sorry 14 13th. Watch the Black Klinsman watch or read Why I'm Not Talking to White People About Racism There's another new Spike Lee movie coming out. You know, just basically go on Netflix! Go on... in fact on the blog post for this podcast I have put a bunch of books and a bunch of movies documentaries resources that have been shared with me it is our responsibility whatever your color or community background social economic conditions it is essential for all of us particularly for future generations that this ends here

1:15:21 Get out there, get wise. Make sure that you take a stand wherever you see racism exists and even have the confidence and the guts to pull people up on it where it's not obvious, where it's not really something nasty in someone's face but where is just slightly like hang on a minute that's just not quite okay or did you realize you did that because we don't realize and it's about time we started I can't say any more than that I hope I've been of value to I hope to see you on the next Team Superdad podcast. My name's Jonnie Jensen, Team Superdad out!