Waking Up To Racism Pt2 - Expert Hangout Podcast

00:00 see past my skin color don't disrespect my skin colour but see that inside me is a human being that deserves respect and honor just like you deserve respect and honor you know level playing field waking up to racism part two in this episode of the team super dad podcast we conclude the waking up to racism expert hangout if you missed the first part go back and check it but if you haven't welcome you're gonna love this it's gonna open your eyes roll theme welcome to team super dad real dads creating their best lives ever more time more money more fun you are not alone you're on team super dad

00:53 hey everybody welcome to the team super dad podcast we are here for an expert hangout this is the second part part two of the waking up to racism expert hangout expert hangout as you know we get a group of people together it's like a roundtable much more of a back and forth conversation about a particular subject that is of interest and value to dads at this time and what could be more pertinent and timely than a conversation about racism if you're listening to this in the future wow i hope that the world has changed i hope that we were able to make a difference i don't mean we like me and you but i do mean me and you i i do mean all of us uh and i mean we as a society

01:33 we as the policy makers as teachers as friends cousins all of it everybody no one should go through life with an experience that's different from others because of their skin color and like i said in the introduction to the last so the first part of the of the conversation there are other factors there are socio and economic conditions there are other minority groups of people who are suffering or struggling but that's not the conversation right now we're talking about black lives and i didn't know enough i didn't know enough i've grown up as a white person clearly but i've grown up not in an inner city area not in an area with a lot of black people a few asian people but you know certainly minority groups and the world's a bit different now you know maidstone which is southeast of london there are more black people here there's definitely more asian people

02:28 and there's also europeans um and particularly eastern europeans so we are an ever you know greater and greater we are a mixed community and wherever you are that could look very different of course there are communities where white people are in the minority and i hope that we do have many black and asian members of team superdad if not now then certainly in the future there's no way that intentionally my drive to attract dads into this group is is excluding anybody but that's part of what we have to look into that's part of what we have to understand is is our communication

03:08 is our marketing is our messaging does it in any way exclude people and do you know what's weird about that is is that when you do your marketing strategy you do look at your target audience and you do look to sort of exclude other people team super dad is very much about dads who want more from life men who are business owners or creating second incomes they want to have the family and the kids and the holidays and and the freedom in life that comes through having their own business so there's certain people who are excluded from that because they don't want those things but they're not but they're excluded kind of by choice not by their skin colour and that's part of what i'm starting to understand about white privilege and about how oppressive everyday situations can be to to the black and asian community simply by their skin color so if you haven't

03:57 listened to part one then then this is great you can carry on listening to here but also consider going back and listening to it the team super dad expert hangouts in fact all the podcasts are not normally longer than 60 minutes but this one was i didn't want to cut the conversation off and so here we are with part two i hope you love it i want to invite you to comment ask questions make statements please share this start a watch party and and of course in benefiting team superdad feel free to subscribe to our channels um hit the bell on youtube get the notifications on facebook you know make sure that you're plugged into our latest and greatest content let alone all the challenges and events that are coming up the team super dad community the

04:37 f5 crew all of our fitness challenges and and and workshop i'd love to tell you more about them sign up subscribe get more of our content but right now let's focus on something even more important waking up to racism part two i'll see you on the other side the response was seen right now now is this multi-racial, multi-generational, collectivist response. People are saying, you know what? I don't care what it costs me. I don't care if you're going to say that I shouldn't be out here because of COVID. I don't care if it we like, we're tired of having to play, like

05:18 Reverend Ashley said, Tony said before that we started about Lenny Henry and Frank Bruno. We don't want to have to be the clown in the room anymore. You don't want to have to be, you know, playing any games anymore. Like, just accept me for who I am. I am who I am. Understand my story. Respect my story. I respect you. You respect me. And see past my skin colour. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, um, don't disrespect my skin colour, but see that inside me is a human being that deserves respect and honor, just like you deserve respect and honor.

06:01 You know, level playing field. Yeah, level playing field. And that's, that's coming from no like, like we all know this expression, Tony, from landmark stuff, but it's like, it's like, not like an always, always, already see what's that expression? Always already listening. Always, look, an always already listening. Like, so before the person's said something, done something, you know, like you've decided who they are before they even, you know, the moment you saw them. So it's to remove that always already listening. And perhaps even more than that, to see it is exciting to be like, great,

06:38 I've got a real mix of people that I'm interviewing today. I wonder who's going to step up and be that creative solution or that genius that's going to fix this problem or rather than be looking at the other way, like, oh, who's going to be the one that falls out of this process and putting associations on that? I just wanted to thank Jonathan Collins and Darren Galvin and Law Law for their comments on the Facebook page. It's great to have you here. Law says, you've just described covert racism to the TRL, the silent, confident killer. Thank God you'll never concede to be part of the victimization program. Other people just really grateful for the content.

07:17 Jonathan Collins says he's from Leicester and he's so grateful he grew up with Jamaicans and Indians and Albanians and every creed and culture. So thank you all for watching. Keep asking questions and sharing. I appreciate it. Blind me, Tony, anything you can add or feel like you want to comment on what Errol just said? Yeah, thank you, Errol, because so much has changed and it's really surprised me. Hearing, I asked my stepdaughter, how does she feel about the whole thing? She's 23 and she says she's tired. I've heard that a few times this week, yeah. And, you know, she's only 23.

07:57 And, you know, people of our generation, we're tired. And, you know, from the time we had the COVID situation in Wuhan and fingers started pointing at black people and discrimination that was going on over in that country, I knew this was coming at some point. You know, the fingers being pointed at us. And I just wanted to be in denial of the whole thing and just keep my head down and, you know, be happy in my predominantly black church. And the more things started to happen and the conversations about, you know, a black man being more prone to being COVID, the attention was being pointed at me as a black man.

08:41 I'm 52. I fit the criteria to have COVID. I was asymptomatic two weeks before, so I was quite ill. And then, you know, and then this whole George Floyd thing. And at first, I was like, oh, do I have to deal with this? You know, but I didn't have, I don't have a choice. I've got a son. You know, I've got children. I've got a whole church. You know, when you do a Zoom meeting with your church and the elders, the older ladies said they cried and they cried over that situation. And you know, the pain that you carry on behalf of them, you know,

09:20 you feel convicted somehow to say something, to speak out against it, not in anger, but to say, okay, you're hurting me. You know, people, we've all been hurt and we need to explain what that hurt is. You know, you can't go to the doctor and say, I've got a pain. And you go, where is it? I've got a pain. You know, you've got to say exactly what it is, what it feels like, so that the doctor can understand and begin to diagnose. I'm not saying that the white community are the doctors, but in order for us to understand. and begin to walk towards the solution, you know, it's just really for us to have a dialogue where we're saying this is what's happening, what we've been experiencing, who we are.

10:07 You know, is to, you know, the reason why people are angry, you know, if you look at a child who's self-harming, and we can use that as a parallel to, you know, you're killing each other, black youths killing each other, self-harming, there's something wrong, right? And so you look into that, and you know, you look at a rape victim and they say they've been raped and you don't listen. You know, you say, oh, okay, so it's fine, you'd be fine. You know, there are many victims. You don't listen or you don't believe them. Or a child who has been abused and nobody will listen. I've been in that experience and nobody listens and you feel that you are being stifled. It's all downhill.

10:51 And so all personally, for me, all I want is to be seen and to be heard. It's as simple as that. So when I speak, people listen. I don't have to make you listen, but it's that respect, that mutual respect, when we speak to each other, when we talk to each other, and to see me as a human being, not to be afraid of me the moment I open my mouth. I can't help the way I speak or, you know, that I can project my voice. You know, I sing so I can project my voice. But it's all that time having to negotiate and think carefully about what are the clothes that I'm wearing.

11:32 For Baptist ministers, for example, we don't normally wear collar, a collar and black shirt or whatever to any engagement. But as a black minister, I would need to. Otherwise, I would be overlooked in certain places. Yeah, got it. Yeah, so if I'm doing a funeral, I wear the whole garb because I know that people will not look at me or pay any attention to me. But as soon as I put that collar on, that's what I have to do. I mean, on my driving license, it's reverend because I can't just say, oh, I'm a reverend, whatever. It's true. That's what I have to do. So I don't have to enter these conversations of trying to explain who I am.

12:17 You know, it's those experiences. And yes, we do keep, I do keep my head down. I worked hard. I've worked through college and managed to get my degree in theology. And it was hard, you know, because I was one of those who grew up and thought, you know, no chance. I can't have a degree that's for those posh people up there. And I thought I got my degree at age 50. You know, and that was a major achievement for me. It might not be for anybody else, but it was a major achievement for me. And to have those goals and keep your head down and believe in, you know, as I say to all our

13:00 people in the black community and anybody else, you know, women, especially women in ministry, you know, just do what you are called to do in life and to do it well. And I know that we have things that oppress us and we still have to fight through. The good thing about slavery is that we have that tenacity and that strength to actually fight through. And people might say, oh, that's from your ancestors. But I believe it's in our DNA to keep fighting and keep fighting through and to keep showing a positive image. And most black people do show a positive image. And we want to be examples

13:42 to our younger generations. I'm not just a minister solely because God has called me and I've done the study, etc. I'm doing it so that our young people as well can aspire to anything that they believe in. Yes, they will get their challenges. They will experience some form of racism. Some will fight through that. Some will notice it and they will need counseling with some of the stuff that they go through. But it's for us not to stop believing that we actually belong and that we can breathe the same space as everybody else that God has created on this earth. Can I ask your question, Johnny? Yeah, go for it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, I want to flip it around a bit.

14:27 I think we could make an assumption that, you know, we understand white culture because we brought up in it. You know, we all watched the EastEnders and Brookside and Coronation Street. And, you know, we, you know, we're not the bill and all we've grouped. We're British, right? But how would you, as a white man, how would you? would you describe your ethnic culture and what do you love about your culture or which was different? I'm, you know, I'm the classic tick the box on the form. You know, I'm white Caucasian.

15:04 I'm British, white, Caucasian. I think, you know, I don't, I've got a lot of family in America and America, when you speak to people, it's very easy for them to say, oh, I'm half Irish, a quarter English, and a quarter German. You know, they're like, they just go back and they like all the grandmas, grandpa, parents, and immigrate immigrants, and that's who they are. Whereas clearly anyone in Britain can say they're a flipping one-eighth Viking or something like that. But I consider myself British and actually probably English. You know, since you asked the question, I probably consider myself certainly more English than I do British.

15:46 Maybe that's some sporting thing as well. You know, I'm a bit of a royalist. I'm happy with our traditions. You know, that side of being British. When I look at politics and stuff, I'm conscious and conscientious when I vote. I feel like I've got too much going on in my life to worry too much about the news and everything else in between elections, but I vote locally and nationally and I make a big deal when people around me don't. In terms of my pride, I think it's easy as a British person, as an English person to be like, oh, well,

16:31 the wars won the war and we stood up for democracy and we explored the world. But then actually, if you start digging into that history, we did explore the world, but we flipping, took it over. And, you know, I think historically, this slave subject, you know, I think that I read an article today, which I which I happened to search up after I followed a vein through the internet. And it said, in 2018, the British taxpayer made its last payments on

17:12 a slave tax where we had to, the British government did a deal with slave owners to pretty much buy the freedom of their slaves. And it took like 100 years to pay it off. Wow. And it was people can search up if they want the article. There's 2018 article on The Guardian and it said the Treasury's tweet shows slavery is still misunderstood. And it was in 2018. Did you know in 1883, Britain used 20 million, 40% of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves in the empire?

17:49 The amount of money borrowed for the Slavery Abolition Act was so large that it wasn't paid off until 2015, which means that many living British citizens helped pay to end the slave trade. So like when I was at school, we studied, we studied the Romans, we studied World War I, we studied One of the Kings, you know, but it was very much modern history. And you think about historical impact, like this, this period of slavery and racism, like that should be the thing that gets

18:25 taught in history as a way to bridge gaps, to heal harms and to broaden the understanding. So I'm trying not to stray too far from the question. I'm proud to be English and British, but perhaps not so sure why these days. I think, if anything, that's kind of the media muddies that water so much. We're not allowed to be proud to be British, you know, like, or we're not, there's very little pride in any of our communities. We're encouraged to be proud about when England are playing football or when the Olympics are on, or

19:05 I don't know, I can't really think of anything else, but and when there's a 50th anniversary of the war or something like that. But if you go back much further than that, what is there to be proud of? You could say, okay, engineering, let's, but I think, I think that we need to revisit what we are proud of. And part of that, you know, that statue being torn down in Bristol the other night, you know, I think there is an awakening that needs to happen and start to question some of those some of those things that we've honored in the past and not to clear up our history because to judge to judge previous previous generations on our

19:48 modern day attitudes is perhaps slightly risky, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be spoken about. I was thinking about comic relief and children in need and all those programs. And we'll watch and we'll cry and we'll be moved by children that have been abused or orphans in Africa or we'll all start raising money because they've got to walk 10 miles to school without any shoes on, which is all solid and needs to be brought up. But like, why the hell isn't it 10 hours of what it's like to be discriminated against? And like, if we're going to cry about something, let's cry, let's cry about that. Can you relate to a time when

20:30 someone discriminated against your culture in a harmful way or you thought it harmful on a personal level? And this is kind of a micro situation, you know, being a teenager in Chicago when I used to go and visit and my family are Irish. And so some of the families that I was on the beach with, some of the kids that were lifeguards or some of the people that we went drinking with, some of them were just kind of a little bit meathead. And it was still IRA stuff. And there was a, I'm not going to mention his name, of course, but I can remember one guy and his brothers, you know, who were

21:12 who were proper singled me out as, you know, you, you effing English, you know, where, you know, I, you know, like IRA type stuff. So that's probably the time when I felt most persecuted. But I also experienced in that moment people standing up for me. And what was going to be the other one? I said, I got, I got mugged at a rave once by about eight black blokes. They just kind of circled me, you know, and we're at a rave, right? So easy picking, you know, it was, but it was just a case of empty your pockets, give us everything in your pockets.

21:54 And it was like, what the hell's going on? And it was just, you know, and then later on in the night, I spoke to four or five other people and they'd all had the same experience, same, the same group of guys had kind of moved through this room of 2,000 people and, you know, how many, it doesn't take much to put someone who's off their nut to give them everything in their pockets, you know, which in itself was probably a stick of gum, you know, 20 quid. And, you know, but so I think, you know, in those two examples, I can speak very lucidly about personal experiences and how intimidating that was and

22:33 how that has framed some of my experiences moving into the future. So they're one-off scenarios, not as Ola said to me, a day, a thousand cuts, not as someone in a primary school. I spoke to a woman this week, her 10-year-old son stood up for his mate at school, another 10-year-old, being bullied because he's black about being black by some kids in his school. I'm like, what? Like, that's happening. So my mind just boggles at where's that kid got that from to come there and be that way. But the point I was making is that for people, black people, as it's becoming really apparent to me, every step of their life stage, there's been

23:17 one experience. No, not at all. There's been hundreds of experiences at every life stage. And then you're there as a grown man talking to your children, telling them, like, I talked to my kids about going to school. If you're picked on, do this. You know, and when they get older, I'll be like, if you go to a party, do this. But it's become apparent to me that how a black person would speak to their kid about that, what you should do at school and what you should do if you're at a party is going to be completely different and probably way more be careful and watch out and like so they're actually so so that father or that mother is instilling into their child a level of be careful watch out it's not going to be okay which i'm like hang on a minute why should a black parent have to say something different to their children about what it's going to be like when they go out to the park later or they're going to go to a party later i'm just

24:10 that's my level of awakening i'm like when's that going to stop when's it going to be yeah watch out when you go to a party because uh you don't be sick on someone and and um and make sure you have a good time like and that's it not watch out like i can't i i can't um i hope that changes and and in the same way you know i hope when when i when if my kids are going to a party they're not fearful of a black group of black lads. Like, why should it be the group of black lads that they're afraid of? I don't know whether that was circumstantial or whether it's pushed on us by the media and movies and

24:52 or the fact that that's the community they're in and that's the circumstances they're in. Because if that is the community they're in and the circumstances they're in, I don't think that's okay either. Why have they grown up with that perspective, just like you guys were saying? Like, grow up, give it your best, go for it. Like you can achieve anything. Great. Surely, yeah, some people are going to end up nicking and robbing and stealing, but why has it got to be one community and not another? Or why have we got to perceive it that it's one community and not another? This is my level of awakening. I think you're one of the few people that has actually said, you know, a group of black lads or a group of black people. Normally you hear a gang of that are normal.

25:36 That's what I normally hear a gang of, no matter how young, it's a gang. So it could be five, it could be 10, 15, just having fun. You hear the word gang rather than a group. Those little things you hear and you go, or why are they suddenly a gang? You know, it's just one of those things I heard you saying. And it's not like picking this, that, and the other. It's just something as a black man that I've learned. And, you know, the other thing he was talking about, things that you worry about. As a parent, my son in primary school during the last couple of years, he said, Dad, mum, can I walk home from school, please?

26:21 And, you know, even though we said yes, in my head, I was like, oh, no way, I can't deal with that. My head, I didn't know that at the time until he asked. And I thought, I can't deal with this. The idea of something happening to my son. And it was, I mean, it took me ages to get used to him walking home from school. And I remember, I think it was a couple of weeks before school was going to end his term at school. And he said, a guy on a bike rod up to him and said, do you want some my chicken, you know, a piece of my chicken? And he said, no, because he understood he had been educated at school in class about county lines and how

27:06 it's done. And so he hadn't he had that, maybe he would have taken that chicken, but he knew he had chicken at home anyway. But, you know, it's those things that, you know, you worry about your children having to negotiate. And, you know, and as a parent, it's like, what do you do? You know, you can pray and you teach your children not to live in fear. Scripture tells us God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and sign mind. And, you know, that's what we have to keep teaching our children. And things do happen. But we can't allow any of our children, black or white, to be living in fear.

27:47 And neither should we. Neither should we be living in fear either. Yeah. And that is a level of awareness that I think everyone needs to take on. Like that as a base. Some of these things are baselines for humans. And we have to dig into why that wouldn't be happening for all of us. I think, like you said, it's fear, you know. There's a fear of the other. There's a fear of losing some sort of power or status. A fear of losing position. A lot of white people saying, you know, what, you know, this whole immigration thing.

28:26 And you see all these videos going out saying that white people are going to be the minority. And so there's a fear of those kinds of things. I think my heart and what I show with our church is about reconciliation, so racial reconciliation. So having conversations like these with people who are not like you and hearing stories. It's like you just shared with us, Johnny, about your experience growing up. And I'm sure if we spoke longer about it, there'd be probably some more stories too. Well, actually, we've all got stories and all got journeys and we all need to forgive.

29:08 We all need to be forgiven. And that's when that trauma, that pain is released, that we can see more clearly and approach situations with more confidence. Because some of the hang-ups and chips on shoulder are because we're carrying around experience or pain from experiences from years gone. There's that school teacher that said this or said that. There's that person on your street who's threw that at you. There's those friends in the park who spat at you or bullied you. And there's all those stories that, and oftentimes, hurt people hurt people. And so

29:48 we've got to be, I think we've got to be gentle with each other and where possible, where people are willing to have conversations that are going to help each other to grow through this. So I'm really keen to do more things like this to see to help leaders of organizations do these kinds of things with their teams, especially those that are in diverse communities or leading diverse organizations and teams to create an inclusive environment and culture. There's understanding. I mean, I've had school teachers contact me and ask me about, you know, content for their students because they recognize now that this is really pulling on heartstrings, this whole George Floyd thing.

30:30 And everyone wants to be on the right side of history. Students are not sure about it or they're uncertain how to respond to it. They want to be on the right side of it. But how? How should they respond? And so there's a need for people like us on this call today, all three of us, to say, look, we know you don't understand, we know you don't get it, but here's the opportunity. Here's the possible moment of breakthrough here. And if I'm thinking about my children, my kids who are coming after me and them not being in an environment where there's a culture of fear or culture of any kind of sense of limitation being imposed on them because of the

31:13 color of their skin, they're going to feel so free. They should be feeling like I can be the prime minister in this country. You know, I can be at the highest position in this country. You know? Yeah. And I just wanted to say, you know, the part about forgiveness because people think that misguided to think that forgiveness is overnight and it's a one-time thing. And, you know, as Jesus explains, we have to forgive 70 times seven, meaning that we have to forgive over and over and over. So even when this whole George Floyd incident happens,

31:54 everything is regurgitated and you have to continuously forgive. But also have to deal with it. How do we process this? Everybody's hurting. How do we create a safe environment for us to have a dialogue and to negotiate, you know, through the politics, through our various areas that we live in? How do we negotiate and educate each other? You know, I think at first I thought to myself, why would I have to educate anybody? They should know. And I think a lot of people think that. A lot of black people think, well, they should know.

32:33 I shouldn't have to tell them because I'm feeling the pain. But yeah, we do have to educate and we have to educate each other about our different cultures. And not only that, you know, there are isms within our own subcultures as well, you know, between Jamaicans and Africans and whoever. There are isms and we have to work past that and see each other for who we are and to respect each other's cultures as well. And we're not going to get everything right. Johnny, you're not going to say the right things at times. And for many people, I speak to everybody, we're not going to say the right things at the right time. We're imperfect.

33:15 And we may speak up out of anger and frustration and get things wrong. But the most important thing is really just to work towards having a dialogue and keep that dialogue going until we have a safe space for us to grow, to learn and to breathe. Absolutely. And where do you think those breakthroughs are going to come? Is it going to come at government level? Is it going to come in schools? Is it going to come with the next generation? Is it going to come with business owners? Is it a set of dominoes that are going to go? Or is like what this is? You know, I was thinking about this today, right?

34:00 And this is really a civil rights issue in the same way as it was for when Martin Luther King and his and that generation were protesting. People are protesting for civil rights. And the changes came when laws were changed. So segregation laws were changed, for example. And so there are laws. We've got to be clear about which civil rights we're asking for, right? But there needs to be a change. So, for example, we've gone from having segregated schools where even the church stood up and said, segregated school, God hates when schools are, kids are educated together of different races.

34:47 You know, I saw a speech at someone said back in those times. And we've gone from segregated schools now to schools were allowed to come together, but the education is still segregated. What's taught in the schools, the history we're taught, the philosophy of education doesn't bear into any consideration the cultural backgrounds of those in the schools. It's a one-size-fits-all school culture. So if we're going to create a culture of understanding and equality, then we have to, there's got to be equality in education.

35:31 There's got to be equality in education in the classroom first and foremost. So that means that every child needs to understand that either you're going to give them the full history of the British Empire and Great Britannia and all that and Churchill, or you can't just say Churchill said, never, never, never give up and leave it there. He said a lot of things, you know, he said a lot of things he wasn't, he didn't like a lot of people that were not white. If you want to be real about it, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so we've got to give the whole picture.

36:13 So we need to see some change happen there. We need to see it to be mandatory for leaders to demonstrate cultural competency. Leaders in institutions, in the health service, I'm thinking, in politics, in education, in business, in faith-based organizations, in entertainments, leaders of organization have to be able to demonstrate cultural competency.

36:53 And so that, go on, sorry, Johnny. Go on. Is that a better principle than positive discrimination or do the two sit together? Well, now there's positive discrimination and positive regard. Like, I don't know that I believe in either of those, to be honest with you, because I do believe in merit. Yeah. Cultural competency has someone who's culturally competent. It's like someone who is emotionally intelligent, but in a cultural way. So they're able to understand and perceive

37:33 the nuances in someone's culture and be able to relate to them based on their background, their story, their journey, and not diminish or disregard them because of those things. So as we're talking now, like I'd say, Johnny, you know, we connected straight away back in 2010 on the program we were on. And, you know, we've had a friendship. I've stayed at your house. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you're at my wedding. Yeah. And there's a level of cultural competency that you have as a white man that makes our friendship easy.

38:14 We can have difficult conversations and heart to hearts about sensitive things. Yeah. And it's not an issue. But if someone is in authority and in leadership who doesn't have that ability, has no desire to, then they shouldn't be leading in this generation. They're dangerous. And they're perpetuating situation. Yeah. Subtly. Sometimes. Even and obviously overtly at others, but probably the ones that are subtler, more dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. And we probably say to people, I'm not racist. It's just easy not to have too many black people in the office or something like that. It is that.

38:56 Exactly. Exactly. They don't want to upset the apple cart. They want to be politically correct. They want to please the other people who are, you know, it's, it's, boy, that whole thing there. Like, I tell you, we have to work hard, you know, out here, I tell you. Yeah. Because there are some places, the opportunities, like, they're just not going to come to me. That's the bottom line. You know, I have to. grasp for it and I have to make my mark. I have to like you're respected as a black person if you've achieved something. You know, if you've got some, if you've written some books, you know, if you've built something, done something, impacted something, if you're competent, then you can get respect to a level.

39:45 You can get respect to a level. It's easier. But that's hard. You know, you gotta, you gotta do that. I know, but still, some of that is still like, oh, look at him. Isn't it amazing? He's done all that and he's black. Like, it's sometimes I think when you see the people on TV, they're like, oh, we found a black lawyer. Let's see what he has to say. Like, it's, I don't know, maybe perhaps other people don't see that. Perhaps it is really true. But it's so much. Let's go to a football match, go down the villa or golem wherever, and you'll see 60,000 people there.

40:22 Maybe a few hundred are black. And they love their players. They love their favorite black striker who's scoring goals to them and they're cheering in and they're shouting his name. But when they go home and they're having their chats around the dinner table about black people, it's a different conversation. But because of the sense of there's prestige, there's accomplishment. He's a different kind of black guy. Yeah. He's all right. He's all right. And so, where do you know? I think we've kind of touched on this already, but with all these protests happening,

41:08 you know, I hope it bugs me. I don't know, this is not going to change, but it drives me mad when they start the news with them tearing down a statue and chucking it in the river. And then, and then we'll eventually get onto the fact that there was 20,000 people peacefully marching earlier on in the day. That bugs me that they focus on the fear and the sensationalism rather than the actual message and what's possible. But what do you think is possible? Where can this go from here? Is this the breakthrough? Is it really? And is it like a perfect time? Is it been, did we have to have COVID to have it to be able to have this?

41:50 Did we have to have like this year's been crazy? Brexit and Iran and America and China. It's like this weird thing going on where all these the environmental movement with and Creta Somberg and all everything. It's like there's like so many movements happening and now and now a really big one, like the biggest one is upon us. You know, I love the idea that for anyone that doesn't believe in God, he really is sitting there going, try this on. Have a go at that if you're going to keep messing with this thing that I gave you.

42:32 What's going to happen? What's going to happen? You know, you can't tell. I mean, it is a boiling pot that's been boiling for 400 plus years. Something was going to boil over at some point. We could say that it was inconvenient because we've got COVID, but it's happened and we have to deal with it in some shape or form. I do believe that it is great that we're having this dialogue together because for me personally, I feel safe to share how I feel and what's been going on and to listen to yourself, Johnny, share your experiences.

43:13 White people have had their experiences of being victims of crimes, etc. And just hearing the different perspectives, we all can contribute to each other in conversation and create something new. And it doesn't mean that it's going to be created overnight, but we need to be committed into entering to this dialogue until it's eradicated. We can either look at the elephant in the room or we could ride that elephant out knowing that it's going to break a few windows, etc. The elephant needs to come out of the room. And that is racism and the culture that it embroils as well. We need to have, we're all together in this country.

43:59 I speak for this country. We're all together and we have to live together. But how we live together, like I keep saying, how do we ensure that we all breathe the same space that we so rightly need to do? And yes, you know, for black people, you know, they will always tell you we have to work twice as hard and get, you know. four times much more rejection. And we still have to press through. But it doesn't stop us having that conversation with our counterparts to discuss how do we move forward. How do we move forward in love and respect for each other as well? Yeah. And actually ask that question, like consciously ask that question. Like I've done this week to consciously ask that question.

44:43 Raheem Sterling and everything he did in the football sort of sphere earlier this year. I was like, okay, that's good. That's great. Like what he's done there, but didn't take it on board any deeper than that. And particularly around, was it the World Cup when he was getting a bit of a stick? And you're just like, actually, what was his motivation? It wasn't his motivation because he's a famous footballer. Somewhere in amongst what he's done, he's come from his experience that his dad passed on to him and shared to him what it was like growing up. His experience at school, his experience, like, and then he said, enough is enough.

45:24 But people and the media in particular hear it as, oh, well, someone's tipped over his toys. Like, like, like, this was something that happened to him last week. No, no, this is something that happened to him over his whole life. And he's actually putting his career on the line to some degree by saying, I am going to say something. I am going to make a stand here. And, and I think that we all have to do that. That we all have to look at ourselves and think, okay, well, where are those subtleties? What can I experience in my life? What do I see around me? Where am I going to say? Let's organize something. Let's do something in town. Let's do something in my club group. Let's make a podcast where we focus on this subject. Like, let's not let this just become last week's news.

46:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. You know, I think, I think we've got to pray, number one, right? Obviously, I'm a pastor, so I'm a Christian, and I believe in the power of prayer. I believe we've got to pray together. I believe that the church could take a lead on this as well, in the sense of modeling to the world and to society how we reconcile. We've got the best example in Christ of Him, of Christ reconciling us back to God. Then the next step for me is awareness as well. So,

46:52 like we've been talking today and sharing stories, as Tony, as you said, as Johnny said, there needs to be awareness because oftentimes there is just not an awareness. One of my friends described it to me as, I feel like I'm at a few. He said, I feel like I'm at a funeral. I don't know the person that's been buried. I have no idea who they are. Now, I thought that was a really, really, you know, precise way of describing it. You know what I mean? And so, we need to work together to create an awareness by sharing stories and understanding that we cannot be colorblind because most people have been taught to be colorblind and accept people as human. And

47:36 that makes sense on one level, but actually, you're discounting the whole history and the reality of the experience of life of that person. So, we've got to have a create an awareness and acknowledge that with that awareness, we're not trying to condemn people, not trying to put shame or like a negative shame and guilt on white people or on anybody for that matter. What we're trying to do is bring it to the surface so we can collectively and communally acknowledge it and repent, confess it, forgive each other, and repent of that paradigm of those thoughts, those behaviors, those attitudes, and repent and take a different

48:18 course. And then we can begin to repair relationships and bring healing and bring just a new level of restoration, really. So, I think it is possible. I think the church can lead on it. I'd encourage anyone listening just to read up, get some of the resources that are out there. There's a great book called Latasha by Latasha Morrison called Be the Bridge, and the really good book called White Fragility as well. But so many great books out there, as you can imagine, they're all bestsellers now on Amazon. Yeah, but go out and read some content, go out and read some content on the subject matter and

49:04 be informed. Yeah, and watch stuff. Netflix, I've talked about the 13th. You know, if reading's not someone's thing, there's so much content out there today: podcasts, audiobooks. any of those books that could be listened to on an audio book, I'm sure. Netflix, you watch one thing, it'll spin you on to the next thing. People that watch this watch that. I think it's all we're going to sit and watch garbage on TV. You might as well watch something get challenged. Some crazy crap on TV, right? Zombies and gangs and just stuff. And I'm okay with that. I like to keep it a bit more comedy-based.

49:44 But for anyone picking what to watch over this next six to 12 weeks, pick something that could broaden your perspective. Pick something that could teach you something you've not seen before, that could have you look at your neighbor in a different way, that could have you listen to the next thing that Raheem Sterling says on TV in a new perspective that can make you look at the bus driver in a different way. I think that's what everyone's responsibility has to be in this moment: to say, where's my compass? What am I thinking? What do I know? What are these people going on about? Have I really taken a chance to find out? Because otherwise, without being extreme, like,

50:27 you know, people often ask, right? I know it's always awkward bringing up Hitler, right? But people often ask, how the bloody hell did he get to power and do all that stuff? Because not enough people paid attention. Apart from the socio-economic conditions, bottom line is not enough people paid attention to what was going on before it was too late. And in a kind of reverse situation here, there we are in a time and a moment where if enough people pay attention, then we can propel this situation forward, not hold it back. Yeah. Yeah, Johnny, I just wanted to ask you, how do you feel? What are your thoughts after our conversation so far?

51:13 I do worry a little bit. I think the average British person is just a bit crap, you know, just a bit, it's not my problem. Like they might get upset about it and outraged about it for a day. I think that the average, you know, I think Brexit is an example of that. I'm not here to say whether leaving or staying was the right thing or not, but I do think the degree to which people looked at what was the right thing or not for many people was not enough. Or they were very right about their view rather than going and finding out.

51:58 You know, the number of people I saw on TV like, well, we lost our right to choose in 1950 and I'm going to take it back now. And I'm like, what about the 50 years in between? And I think that's everybody's responsibility right now. I think that black communities, as you know, as you pointed out, Errol, my version of inner city, East London, black communities, it's just high rises and it's a bit rough. I was getting prettied up now. But it's like they're all there. They're all dumped in that area. Like, why?

52:37 What goes on? What's what? In a way, people can quite easily say, well, they bought it on themselves or they must be there for a reason. I don't know. People fail to realize that the reason started 100 years ago or some other version of that. And so I'm going to kind of repeat myself now, but I want people to take a today's perspective and say, well, what do I want the future to look like? What do I want? I don't think I think a normal way. I've not been, I've not grown up this way. As a mildly funny story, one of my good friends, Farat, Pakistani guy, we were at uni in my first year at uni and him and I were walking across the university campus.

53:29 And for some reason, we were talking about going to the shops. And I said about going to the pack shack, like, like, just made some slang reference to Pakistani packy. Like, and he's like, excuse me. And I was like, oh, sorry. I mean, I don't mean you. I mean, like, and, you know, and that was a moment for me, you know, that was a moment coming like, like, I'm a worldly person. But there was a part, there was something in my dialogue that it took, that it took a mate, a Pakistani mate, you know, to say to me, yeah, you guys like, you can't say that. And so in that moment, I.

54:09 I took a step forward whether it was a small step forward, whether it was a monumental step forward, whether it paved the way for other steps forward. I'm not, I'm not sitting here like priors, like, oh, I'm amazing, because far from it. And I hope, I hope in sharing that, I give other people the opportunity to realize where they've not been all right. And it's not about being PC, I really hear that from what you were saying earlier, Errol. You know, mates should be able to banter with each other, you know? Yeah, we do. I got like, it should be okay that I can talk about my big black mate Errol, like, or you know, like, it should, there's a degree to which mates, if an Irish bloat, an English bloat, and a Scottish bloat, like the classic joke, if they're on a building site and being mates together,

54:55 so long as that is what's going on, they probably would take the piss out of each other from where they came from or how they spoke or whatever. But there's a level to which all of us need to know where it all fits in and how it's all right, and whether it is offensive or not offensive, or or take responsibility. And then, at the level at which we're okay with that in our own community and in the circle, we've got to look outside of that and kind of think, well, why is that person getting shot in the street? Or why is that someone in the football stadium screaming at a football player because they missed a penalty and using that kind of language? And what kind of education we need to go, take where what direction we need to take education in, such that that friend of mine and her 10-year-old boy isn't having.

55:39 I mean, well, maybe we'll always have to defend our mates and that, and that's okay, but it not have it be some, you know, really deeply racially motivated intent, like where that little 10-year-old is now suddenly believing that black people are not as good as him, or as, or as, or they're, I don't know, like, it's like, still, I was, I was at a dinner, right? A girlfriend of mine when I was about 17, we were at a dinner at her house, and the parents had some out South African friends over. And this guy was saying, he was like, going, it's, it's scientifically proven black people have got smaller brains, right? So this is in this is in 1991, sort of thing, like just right around apartheid as to like

56:24 so it was like in my life, I've experienced those awkward moments where you sat at the dinner table going, did he just like, are we serious? Are you hearing this? Or a time in America where we went to visit my cousin at university and we were all quite drunk, but one of the lads, a group of about six of us having breakfast at about four o'clock in the morning, one of the lads was directly racially abusing the waitress. And it was, it was probably the most one of the most uncomfortable experiences in my life where I just didn't know what to do. I didn't know. I was, I didn't know where I was. I was drunk. I was in a CAF, like on some university camp. I was like, so getting up and walking out, I didn't really have an like, where am I going to go?

57:07 And eventually the conversation came around to enough of us saying you've got to stop. Like, that's bang out of order, like, what you're doing. But, but, still, like, these, these are just like, it's just confusing in my brain trying to rationalize and answer your question. And I'm conscious of like warbling on about it. But I hope in sharing this, it makes it okay for other people to say, I'm confused. I don't, I think I might have said something wrong in the past, or I hope I'm not now. Or, or I'm going to watch something and I'm going to realize, oh my gosh, people are being shot, people are being suffocated, people are being, there's this many people in prison that shouldn't be.

57:45 There's so anyway, I've said that before, but where I think it's going to go is, I hope, I hope that in towns across the country, people peacefully protest. That in random situations, people take a knee as a statement of this is where I'm at, you know, whether it be on TV, whether it be at the start of a of a council meeting, whether it, you know, like, like, I don't think people need to make outrageous gestures, but I do think that the more we can normalize

58:24 a new normal that then we'll see change. We won't see stupid headlines on newspapers, that we won't see the news leading with gang smashing stuff up when 200,000 people were protesting peacefully. I think, I think that's where I think me, I think media is just a horrible thing as well. I think that's another whole big subject. What's next on your journey, Johnny? My journey, next on my journey, where do you go from here? In you talk about the confusion, like I'm not crystal clear what the confusion is. Where are you going from here? from here?

59:10 Maybe confusion sent the conversation off in the wrong direction, but I don't kind of make a point about saying, oh, I don't really watch the news. I checked out of the news after my divorce and my mental health at that time. I found the news so negative that I stopped it. Around COVID, when it started, I had the news on. I'm in a few WhatsApp groups where I feel like I'm getting information from source and it's fine. And then, and I carry on checking that source of news, but I stopped with the media because it was all just so going around in circles, just drivel, you know, about it. And so, as where this subject goes,

59:57 I'd like to think that I will continue to find out more so I've got a better perspective so I can talk more lucidly about the subject, so that when pushed, I can give an opinion that matters and makes a difference. For Team Superdad, you know, it wouldn't, it would no way more occur to me that I would have more or less black people in Team Superdad for a reason other than they just hadn't heard about it. So, I don't think, I don't think from a business perspective, I don't say, well, maybe I wouldn't, I wouldn't naturally choose a coach or an expert to come and speak to the Team Super Dad community based on their colour.

1:00:39 Might I think now, have I had enough black people speak to my community? Maybe, maybe I would, maybe I'd do that in the same way that I might think about women. Have enough, if I had an event on, would I look and see, is there a good representation of women speaking at my event? Even though it's a dad's event, I, for one, particularly with my attitude towards my future and my family, I want women involved in my life. I want to fall back in love. I don't want to proudly march on single, you know. But I think that maybe there's a level of consciousness for me in that, in that if I'm trying to educate and mentor and lead men in a certain direction, I might be more aware now of have I got a

1:01:25 rounded view. But then, even then, as far as asking you to come and do it there, or when it launches, you know, you'd just be on that list anyway. So, it's difficult to say what I think next. As far as my children go, I'm encouraging them. I'm making sure that they watch bits of news. We've talked about that. I think that's important that we all, our kids aren't naturally going to be interested, but I think it's important that they are. And also being careful at the same time, because my children aren't, they're not noticing colour at school, certainly not in my kids' school. And there is a broad ethnic mix in my children's school, even in Sunny Maidstone.

1:02:06 So, I will continue to make sure that they don't see a distinction between their friends based on colour or country of origin. That's for certain. And then, what more could I do? You know, in the London podcasting community, I've challenged other podcasters to do something like this. And I think it would be amiss of me not to continue in some way to make sure that this subject stays on the agenda, basically. I think that's certainly

1:02:48 for me, that's where I can see the difference I can make. Yeah, I'd like to acknowledge you for actually bringing this to the table and inviting the both of us to have this conversation. As difficult as it is for you, you know, even for me, it was difficult to have the courage to come here and to share my thoughts and feeling. And, you know, you kind of worry at the back of your head. For some people, they don't worry at all. For me, I worry, well, is this going to make me a target now?

1:03:30 But regardless, I've always been the target, you know, I realize. And, you know, when you stand up for the gospel, you stand up for injustice. You are a target, you know, and I always say this to people. What's the worst thing that's going to happen if you do this? You know, and the worst thing that can happen is you could die. I know it sounds really morbid, but that's the worst thing that can happen. Now that you know that, just do what you need to do, you know, do it fully, live life fully. And so. to be able to express that to people to be, um, to be a positive influence, to believe in what you believe and knowing what you want, like, you know, asking you questions.

1:04:10 You know, the thing for everybody is to actually ask themselves, what is it that you want while you're on this earth? What is it? What is it you want from this situation? And the easy answer is to, yeah, I just want it to go away. You know, it'll soon blow over. That's not the answer. But as a human being, seeing people and hearing people, what is it that you want to do? What is it that you want to contribute to this community, to this earth as a human being? And some will contribute very small things and others will contribute in a large way. But it isn't a time for anybody to hide.

1:04:57 Fortunately or unfortunately, we have to address it. But I think, you know, for self-examination, you're having questions bombarded at you psychologically in your head at the moment about the things that you've done and the things that you want to do. And it's to engage in that dialogue with yourself and with other people, you know, to sort this horrible mess out. And it's the same thing with the governments and the councils and the black community, the white community. Everybody is like, what is it that you really want? And one of the things about this pandemic is that we've been isolated and we've, you know, had lockdown.

1:05:37 And so we're thinking about the things that are really important to us, whether we wanted to or not. Our marriages, our children, our work, our jobs, everything we've had to really focus on and think, what do we want out of it? How do we negotiate that? And it's the same thing with racism. We can't avoid it. We've been in lockdown and we have to address that issue, whether we want to or not. So, you know, it's how do we move on? It's like, what do I want? What do I want for my children? What do I want for my wife? What do I want for my community? You know, how can I be a contribution to both black and white community?

1:06:20 Yeah. And I have to ask those questions for myself too. Yeah. Well, that tips into the whole Black Lives Matter, all lives matter. You know, as a white person hearing that argument, I'm like, we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about Black Lives Matter. That doesn't mean that all lives don't matter. We're on this subject right now. Don't confuse it by bringing in other subjects here. Like, of course, all lives matter. But actually, if we don't start with, well, right now, this is very apparently where we're focused. And, you know, if we can focus on that, then by virtue of that, all lives matter.

1:07:00 Because if you say this isn't that important right now, when there's videos of someone having their flipping neck squished until the life is sucked out of them, then clearly that's where we're focused. So, wow. Thank you, guys. I really, you know, I'm kind of glad you said that, Tony, you know, because I wasn't apprehensive, but I, you know, even things like America and my family in Chicago and, you know, part of American immigration now, you share your social media channels, and I'm sure a computer machine runs through it. And, you know, so I'm like, oh, what am I saying? And is that going to impact me visiting my family?

1:07:44 And so they're real things. Like, I'm pretty certain that I haven't, but in the same way that Errol went shopping in Coventry, he was pretty certain that he hadn't done anything wrong. And he's getting his ass worked when he gets home for it. So, you know, there is levels of what am I saying? Levels to which we are concerned about everything that we do and say. And I think that's the important thing as well that we have the confidence to push past that. Because if none of us do, then nothing will change. And if all of us can just a bit, then the power of a million, two million, three million people just pushing a bit.

1:08:25 Oh, my gosh, hopefully that will bring some change. That's right. Anything I've missed? Anything you want to say before we before we wrap this up, guys? I just want to say to anyone listening that whether you're black or white, you know, you're a child made in the image of God. Don't let anybody make you feel inferior. Don't let anyone. look down on it or intimidate. I have a choice to decide whether, you know, we hear about

1:09:06 white privilege and all these different things. A lot of that is a concept that is based upon my interpretation of my reading of the other individual. I can see somebody as better than me and myself as inferior. I can see the person as weak and actually ignorant, you know. So what I'm saying is that you choose how you respond. I choose how I respond to any perception of prejudice or injustice. It either builds me, grinds me down or it builds me up. I'm encouraging us all to let these things build us up. Let's grow stronger.

1:09:48 Out of struggle comes growth. Out of struggle comes growth. So by the grace of God, we'll all learn from this. We'll all grow stronger. We all be gracious to each other and respect and honor each other's humanity, if you like, and come through and come out of this as better people by the grace of God. Yeah. Yeah. And it's going to be hard work, whether you're black or white. It's all going to be hard work. And that's okay, as long as we're working together and working together with a common goal, which is to respect humanity,

1:10:27 respect each other. And, you know, I simply want to love you and be loved back. That's it. Yeah. That is, wow, that's beautiful, Tony. That's, that is every human can get to that point. You know, you hold your baby, you hold your child. You look at the child, you love it. It looks back at you. It loves you back. Like that, that level of innocence with each other as human beings is a beautiful, imagine, a beautiful goal to imagine, Tony. Awesome. Well, remind us of your individual churches. You know, I think it's important if anyone's near to you and they've felt a connection with you tonight that they can come and check you out.

1:11:13 Yeah, so I'm Tony Ashley and my church is Stoke Newington Baptist Church. And obviously we're not open. But yeah, you know, go on to the Facebook page or onto my Facebook page and connect with me and then we can include you in our services. That'd be lovely. Really great. Perfect. I'll put some in London. Yes, I'll get some links off you. I'll put it in the show notes and in some of the live stream comments as well, which we can share. And Errol, where's the bridge? Yeah, the bridge is in Harborne in Birmingham. Our website is www.thebridge.family.

1:11:50 And all are welcome. We currently meet online. Just drop us a line by email or on Twitter or Facebook, The Bridge Church, Birmingham. And we welcome you with open arms. Awesome. To everyone listening, thank you. Team Superdad is the community and program for Dads Who Want More. We'll play more, Be More, Make More. And I hope this conversation has challenged us all in many areas to take a look at ourselves, to take a look at our attitudes, to take, I think most importantly, to take a look at how much we know about this subject. And you could say all subjects in that, but right now we're talking about

1:12:33 racial equality. We're talking about civil rights. We're talking about the generational impact across communities. And if you have a view on what's going on today, don't just make it about today. Take it upon yourself to rise up, to educate, to learn up. Errol shared some books. I'll get some of the things that I've watched on Netflix. Pay attention, dig slightly deeper than the news. And when the opportunity comes, do something a bit beyond your comfort zone to be one of the many that bring some change about in this world that we live in today. Thank you, Johnny. Awesome. I'll press stop and hold tight. We'll do our goodbyes afterwards.

1:13:18 Team Super Dad out. Amazing. It blew me away. I hoped it was going to be a value and it was. I hoped it was going to make a difference to me personally. So perhaps I can start to make a difference to other people. I'm not out there as a vigilante expecting to change the world, but I want to be someone who's conscious. I want to be someone who can hold a conversation and start to understand exactly what's going on. going on for our black and Asian friends, for people that we work with, our work colleagues, our neighbours, and not just be oblivious.

1:13:57 I mean, I learned this week, excuse me, I learned this week that the slave trade went on for 300 years. From the 1500s to the 1800s, the slave trade existed. That blew my mind. It's not mentioned, it's not taught. How can something not be indoctrinated into a culture of society when it lasted for that long? I mean, the Industrial Revolution is only about 100 years old. We've only had mobile phones for 20 years. I mean, 300 years? Are you kidding me? So, wherever you're at, whatever you're up to, get informed. I hope you've enjoyed this podcast, The Expert Hangout. Go and find some more.

1:14:44 Watch 14th. Sorry, 14th, 13th. Watch The Black Kinsman. Watch or read why I'm not talking to white people about racism. There's another new Spike Lee movie coming out. You know, just basically go on Netflix. Go on, in fact, on the blog post for this podcast, I have put a bunch of books and a bunch of movies, documentaries, resources that have been shared with me. It is our responsibility, whatever your colour or community background, socioeconomic conditions, it is essential for all of us, particularly for our future generations, that this ends here.

1:15:22 Get out there, get wise, make sure that you take a stand wherever you see racism exists and even have the confidence and the guts to pull people up on it where it's not obvious, where it's not really something nasty in someone's face, but where it is just slightly like, hang on a minute, that's just not quite okay. Or did you realize you did that? Because we don't realize and it's about time we started. I can't say any more than that. I hope I've been of value to you. I hope to see you on the next Team Super Dad podcast. My name is Jonnie Jensen, Team Super Dad out.