Waking Up To Racism Pt1 - Expert Hangout Podcast

00:00 Hello, we are Waking Up To Racism. This is the Team Superdad Expert Hangout We're talking with Errol Lawson and Tony Ashley about the challenges we're all facing as we wake up to racism in the world today Roll theme Welcome to Team Superdad Real dads creating their best lives ever More time More money More fun You are not alone! You're on Team Superdads Hello and welcome to the Team Superdad podcast. This episode is an expert hangout, if you've not joined tuned in before well welcome! The expert hang out is where I get a couple of different people on to talk about the same subject sometimes two three four...I kind of worked out it works better with a couple of us though And this week Errol Lawson Tony Ashley both friends are mine

00:54 For a while now actually, about 10 years both of them. A little bit longer for Tony but as you'll see from the interview both black gentlemen and what's a timely Subject really, you're in the world today. We actually recorded this a couple of weeks ago and following the George Floyd incident let alone however many years decades even centuries of other incidents I just felt that i didn't know enough about racism. I didn't know enough about what it was like to be a black person. I think...I don't even think I really knew what to call a black person obviously in the world today

01:37 You hear a lot you here color of people of color you hear african-americans you black people and you know like if i don't even know. Something as simple as that if I'm uncomfortable or feeling concerned about something is simple is that then blimey what how much deeper does it go and that's something I really come to question, come to ask myself and we all need too. As dads, as employers, as business owners leaders people in our community friends you know we've got We work with black people, we work with or black and Asian minorities. And you know it's speaking for myself at 46 years old I haven't experienced a lot of like overt nasty racism but i can think of experiences in my life where I've seen it. I can think of experiences in my life where I've said the wrong thing

02:38 And I've been corrected by a friend, you know. And so it's at all levels it permeates into our lives and from documentaries like The 13th or Spike Lee's movie The Black Klansman there is just so much out there that we could educate ourselves with and yet we don't! I say WE, I speak for myself actually probably better...I haven't up until now And with this George Floyd incident, this killing you know the world's hopefully waking up. I've taken it upon myself to have a better understanding. The expression and i'm sorry i seem to be stuttering or bumbling a little bit some of these things are hard to say it's hard to know what to do and that's the thing that we must all take on

03:35 The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen In interviews, and it just occurs to me too much like that's oh that's happened on the football pitch. That's out of order or that's outrageous but I only see in the context of that football match in that incident I never really thought about it of he's been experiencing his whole life what was that like for him? What was that like for his family and as you dig deeper into that you start to learn that black parents tell their kids different things

04:33 Information the guidance the encouragement the warnings that parents of black children give a different than that of white parents only ones I would have heard growing up and so i really wanted this to be an awakening for myself. So that I could, The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen Show,

05:18 Make a stand for yourself first and foremost, and get wise. So without further ado my good friends Tony and Errol join me and I look forward to seeing you on the other side Ask comments as we go along leave comments as we go along please feel free to share this is important that we get as many people Get this out to as many people as possible so that we get to make an impact and start to shift attitudes, shift mindsets inside of the white community. You know inside of people like me and you So that we can have a better understanding of what's going on so that we can make a better stand for our black and Asian friends and community And so that the world can change it needs to it fundamentally needs to Our history

06:06 Our natural holidays, our statues. You know we need to have an awakening so that we start to understand exactly what it's like and most of all most of all no one should have to experience life differently because the skin color You know, we can get on to socio and economic backgrounds. That's fine but first and foremost no one should have to experience life differently because of their skin color I hope you enjoy this expert hangout i look forward to seeing you on the other side oh by the way it's super long so we're going to do in two parts So when you get to 60 minutes just like the normal team Superdad podcast episodes It's gonna finish And then there'll be a part two, which I really hope you come and join us for the second part. In the second part Eero asked me a couple of questions which again were really enlightening for me so i'm going to stop waffling on now it's a bit different than some of the normal expert hangouts. I hope you love it! I hope you can do something with it and like I said...I'll see on the other side

07:03 Good evening and welcome to the Team Superdad Expert Hangout. It's Monday night as always, eight o'clock sometimes five minutes later we are here though around the world across different Team Superdad channels Facebook YouTube Twitter it's great to have you here team super dad is a community of dads who want more we are super charging Dads lives across the world whether you want to be more make more or play more it really is about You know, those areas where perhaps you want to be a bit fitter. Perhaps you want to have a bit more time with your kids and have a slightly better relationship What I found in my life is that there are... we try and do too much We try and, you know, we're great in one area And perhaps just hope the other area's gonna be alright Well what if there were people around us who were super good at staying fit? And someone else was super good at managing their money Well they're the kind of people we wanna get together with

07:53 Just build community, build groups. Build that whole idea of we are the six people we spend our most time with so let's make sure we're hanging out with some good people as often as possible and tonight very much exemplifies that as I'm hanging out with two awesome guys Tony who is top left on my screen and Errol who is in the middle underneath both of us It's an absolute pleasure to have you on The Expert Hangout tonight Thanks for accepting my invitation Tony how are you doing? Yeah, I'm doing good. I've been doing good as well as can be yeah. Yeah awesome! Whereabouts are you in the world Tony? And tell us a little bit about yourself

08:32 I'm in Stoke Newington. I am a Baptist minister and pastor of church there, I was in East London at a place called Alders Brook which many people haven't heard of so it's really hard to explain where it is but its nice and leafy. So yeah I've been in ministry for about 7 years now and I'm still enjoying Yeah, of course because when we first met you weren't were you? That's right. Yes yeah my last secular job was working for British Transport Police in the recruitment division and I helped police officers go through their promotions

09:08 That's exactly right. Now I totally remember that well, thank you so much and Stoke Newington in that kind of London area still isn't it? Yeah London! So East London good awesome and how big is your church? It's roughly about 80. Okay yeah so it's a nice fair number. Awesome well thanks so much for having us here tonight and Errol Where are you? Jonnie J. Good to see you buddy! Yeah, you too man, thanks for putting this together man So based in Birmingham I lead a church called the Bridge Church in a place called Harbour and in Birmingham we're a church plant

09:48 So we're just a year old now, 12 months old. And you know God has been doing amazing things and whilst I'm also running a business where we provide mentoring training leadership development consultancy predominantly in the education sector but also in some of the private and public spaces too yeah and I just know how many I'll speak on your behalf and acknowledge you for how many families and the lives of young people you have made a difference in. So thank you for being here

10:35 Thank you. Yep, awesome! So this is uncomfortable guys right? I mean Paul watching, Marsha watching if anybody else is watching please and normally we get about two to three hundred people on the lives across the different channels so if you are watching then please help us start a watch party share this in the different groups that your participating in If your watching on the replay still do that thank you very much I'm going to be doing a podcast about the

11:18 A Zoom call on, it was Monday night I think it was Tony wasn't it? And it was a group of us who were all friends from different landmark courses and... ...I was the only white person. I was the only white guy. Tony I think you were the only other guy on there. I wasn't there! Oh you weren't there okay No I wasn't there no no Right okay Ah yeah obviously people would say talk to Tony talk to Tony but It was just You know, people from Iran. People from the Caribbean's other people from different parts of Africa. Sangeeta from Pakistan and obviously everything is going on with America and George Floyd and it has just really awoken in me this reality that I don't really know much about the subject of racism

12:10 The posts I've seen this week saying it's not enough not to be racist, it's time that we stood up and were anti-racist. And you know slogans like that Raheem Sterling springs to mind over the last 18 months a footballer who has been high profile and really raised the topic of Racism, anti-racism. The English England football team at the you know over I forget where it was but it was in Eastern Europe and I hear these news items. I have an opinion like okay that's outrageous And then just get back on with my life and It's in this week with all the stuff that's going on in the world That I've really in this Zoom call of Monday But I've really questioned how much do I know? Like how much

12:58 Do I stand up? Stand up for this subject. Now, I wouldn't be okay with someone being racially abusive to a friend of mine standing next me in the pub or even someone I didn't know in the pub but then still how much have I turned a blind eye too and that could be made no more apparent by watching The 13th this week on Netflix And just seeing like a story unfold of a journey from slavery through to 2.5 million people in American prisons and what percentage of those are black, and how much it plays on communities... I was just like oh my gosh! I don't have a clue. Then you think well in what other circumstances have people allowed things to go on for too long under the premise

13:45 It doesn't really affect me or I don't understand it and it's not too close to turning a blind eye basically. And so this tonight is me saying, I don't want to turn a blind eye anymore and I want to make it clear we're not here to dig up shocking stories, we're not here to rally people to anything that they are already rallied If I can become more conscious out of this conversation tonight, then I feel that other people might be able to as well. And and i'm so thrilled that you two were able to take me up on this invitation because I know obviously clearly you have personal perspective on it but as well representing different communities in Birmingham, in London and some

14:37 How We're just guys and I think that the more that we can realise that everybody's opportunities in life should be the same. People shouldn't feel different concerns when they hear a police siren than other people, people shouldn't go into a job having different concerns than another person because of their skin colour and that for me is really the heart and intention of tonight's call so Thanks, I've written some questions. I don't know...I'm not going to sit here and read them! I think we just hopefully just go with the flow if we hit the normal kind of time for this then we'll let the live stream carry on but for anyone listening to podcast I'll probably do it in half and do a second episode And I thank you all for joining us feel free to ask questions I can see them coming in and I'll try and field them and share them with Errol or Tony Let's just go for it. Let's see what we can make happen

15:40 So I've got, here's a good question to start us off with right. What do black people like want to be called? Right it's like uncomfortable yeah! I see more and more people on TV black people saying oh we are people of colour and then Black Lives Matter is on signs all around the world blame is the black It starts with black, I know it's Asian and I don't even know what the hell... This is kind of like my level of awareness. I don't even know what blamefully stands for How does that sit with you guys? What how do how do you refer to yourselves? Well, I suppose let me answer first because I like to answer first on that one You know, I'd like to be called Black simply because I couldn't say oh I had a chat with Jonnie the other day he's

16:30 and What are you talking about? You feel a bit awkward. It's not natural, just call me black it's okay it's fine you know just the other bits that are added on don't need to be added on that's all yeah well I was when I was thinking about that thing I'm happy to be called white but I haven't got all the other connotations that come with different layers that perhaps come with it

17:09 Yeah, political correctness right? You know we're in this world now everyone trying to make everyone feel comfortable and so what do we call them? Do we call them you know are they black or they people of color or their BAME and BAME and like we're just black. I personally, and I can't speak for every black person know that there's some black person out there feels like they want to be called Nubian or they wouldn't be called you know African or something else but I'm happy with Black. Are you both of black African origin or is it Caribbean? Or what's your generational kind of origins there. Caribbean, Jamaican. I can hear it now! That's a good question though because oftentimes there's a disconnect because I would say well my parents are Jamaican and interestingly I did DNA tests recently

18:14 And my DNA showed me that, um, I'm... My root is in Nigeria. Okay! In fact a tribe called the Yoruba Tribe in Nigeria's where my root is now so there's a journey of historical genealogy going back to Nigeria right? One of the challenges for a lot of us as black people growing up in this country was that there's no sense of roots, there's no sense of culture. There is no sense of where we actually come from and so It's really important, I think for black people to understand but also for white people to understand as well that number one there is a challenge around who am i? My identity. my culture and history because when we grew up in school, in primary school, I remember seeing like... We did something called the 24-hour famine

19:07 And this was like a thing that some charity had run where we were going on this kind of famine thing to raise money for starving kids in Africa. And so our conditioning around Africa was that there were starving kids who are swatting flies, who were poor, who did not want to be anything near African I remember two sisters that came to our primary school from Africa and when they came we mocked them, we bullied them because like you're African. And so there's this kind of disconnect that we've been programmed to even hate dislike our own historical roots yeah and so that's caused an identity crisis too Yeah i mean that's... You're already touching on elements

20:01 Themes inside that documentary, the 13th. And I'll speak about the 13th because I just watched it the other day. Talking about black crime in America and over the generations of what they've done with the prison system and the change in the laws where black communities are outraged about the violent black people. And so they came to accept themselves as, oh we are to be feared! We are...and then you said it a minute ago before Tony, before we press record like going into

20:39 And kind of trying to quieten yourself down for, for fear of what people already think if you are. I know there was something that went around the internet today as well. Um, took a screen grab of it where is it? I have to make myself smaller or be labeled an angry black person like which is pretty much what you were saying there so Errol this this I can really see that as well because growing up at very similar age Tony how old are I'm proud of that when actually, well that's like some weird twisted thing inside and again it's a level of complete unawareness as a white person there not thinking or feeling anything the same as what you guys are experiencing. And how many black people were in your school? What kind of community did you grow up in?

21:48 So I grew up in inner city Birmingham, so a place called Handsworth in Birmingham. Went to a primary school called St Mary's which was predominantly black and Asian you might have had maybe one or two white kids in our year group But I then passed 11 plus and went to a school, a grammar school on the other side of Birmingham. A place called Sutton Coldfoot where i was the only black boy in my year group. Culture shock! It's culture shock mate, culture shock I was surrounded by like, no, I had some good friends there but there were some real racist people there. And you know what? I had a WhatsApp message today to check the Twitter feed of my old school

22:37 And apparently there's some like, some posts where they've got some kids dressed up in slavery and all this chains and stuff you know. Talking about the culture that was there when I was there is still there basically right? So that was really really tough but something he said earlier about having to play small, to be small, to silence yourself Just to give some context to that, right? Yeah. So quick story just for context so age 14 myself and some friends my cousin we go to Coventry We live in Birmingham. We get a bus to Coventry it's an hour journey And we get there in the afternoon walking through the town centre and Some security guards start kind of following us when we notice them I will get to the end of this concourse and the police are waiting there for us

23:31 And they say we're arresting you on suspicion of robbery. We're like, huh? Like what? So I asked when did this happen and what time was this? They said it was this morning so I showed them my boss ticket, my day saver ticket that was evidence that I was still in Birmingham then hadn't even gotten the bus, you know. We are arresting you anyway they said and so they locked us up and my dad came to get us from Birmingham The interesting thing was that day I got home and my backside whooped that day. And this is the thing, I got whooped because I shouldn't have been there now it wasn't a case of an injustice was done let's go to the policing complaints commission whatever you know lets protest yeah it was YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE

24:29 And so if you can imagine just the whole mindset of that culture, we're conditioned from a young age to say you know what? Don't expect anything different. Don't fight back keep your head down work hard don't get caught up And so from a young age, that's how we were trained to even think. There was no other reality there was nowhere we could you know and so it took a lot... It has taken a lot of fight through that too to shake that off and break through by the grace of God and start doing stuff. Wow! I'm just protesting that really because again I think I am 14 How many times have I walked through this shopping centres?

25:19 And we'll come back to that, definitely. But Tony you said the same thing when a police knocking at your door this was recently and then you said again? Again another time like what are you doing here why are they knocking on my door again?! Yeah I mean it's quite funny because we were chatting last week and he was talking about how would i recognize the doorbell ringing that it was the police because I immediately got up and went somebody is ringing their doorbell like its the police! And I went to the door and I was just about And it was the police. I thought, how did they know that I'm on the computer? They protested! It wasn't that... They said they had a call for number five and asked if I made that call and I said no so you're not flat 5 and I live in a four-story house and they said no

26:11 Are you sure? I said, this is when i had attitude then. This is all one house! You know and then they walked off and nothing else happened but I was still shaken because it could have turned out totally different yeah um and you feel that all the time...I live quite close to the police station so when you hear the sirens or when you're driving through traffic lights and you hear the sirens my belly goes because Is it going to be me this time? You know, I have been stopped a few times and one classic time was you fit the description of XYZ that we're looking for. And I just come back from marriage counselling with my minister, you know they've left me so if you go through that it's like oh this is part of life. Errol was explaining type of schools he was in

27:10 And I was in a school called Forestall Boys. It was predominantly white in my first year and then it got more mixed, shall I say? I grew up in the time of the New Cross fire and my best friend was in that fire so he's like 13... What was the New Cross Fire just in case people don't know? The New Cross Fire…I can't remember what year is it, do you know Errol? Basically, it was a party in New Cross and I think it was 13 that died in that fire. Protests transpired after that because there is no resolve on it to this day but you can imagine being at school... There's no counselling back then so your at school sitting in the classroom and your best friend is not sitting next

28:08 And, you know even the headmaster walks in and says have you seen Andrew? I say no. Then he just walks off and nothing further than that was said other than announced in school that um...he was dead! To have the experience of walking into playground remember no counselling No care and white kids looking up to him saying oh I see didn't get burnt Like mocking you kind of like a playground, like kind of playground banter but clearly deeply offensive. So just so people know there was a house fire in 1981 it was a house party and the blaze killed 13 young black people aged between 14 and 22

28:55 Yeah, and you don't get over it. You know you deal with it and you remember it and I suppose its not as painful as it was back then but it still hurts when you think that people would carelessly say something like that when your grieving. It's a huge loss but those are the kind of experiences... Its not to make anybody feel guilty You know, what happened to George Floyd? Why people don't understand why everybody's all black people are up in arms because it reminds you of everything that you've gone through where you have suppressed your own breath in what has happened to you. It might be large, it might be small but is equally as painful. There is no

29:47 therapy or class that you can go to, treatment you can go to discuss racism. There is if you've been raped or victim of various crimes etc trauma post-traumatic disorder You know you can have some kind of treatment but you cant have any discussion forum Or to talk to someone about the racism that you go through and you have to deal with. And most importantly, or most... The worst thing is that you have to actually suck it up and deal with it and be the better person. That's what I'm saying about thinking this week about feeling it ties into what you were saying Errol

30:32 Someone growing up feeling that there's this glass ceiling just above them where they can have to limit their self-expression or where they go, how loud they might be at a party. Some of the stories obviously from America are all being brought back up now and people have been shot in certain scenarios They were doing nothing, where they were holding on ice cream. Where they're in their own house and this isn't necessarily for us to comment on some of those things because people can go find it on the internet but I was really curious about just how that manifests itself in the UK and what it's like as a black person to experience that? And what I hear inside all this is how generational

31:21 If your parents were felt a little bit oppressed and their grandparents felt a little bit oppressed, then you've got generations of people growing up who have not been able to fully express themselves. Like if you put a plant in a pot that's too small for it like it needs to grow but you know people need to express themselves So I think this touches neatly into the whole stop and search, which you don't hear so much about on TV and news these days. But it's been more of a prominent subject in your communities and in your experience growing up? How does that play out? What's that like? How oppressive is that to talk about police stop and search and the proportion of how many more black people get stopped and searched than others?

32:12 Yeah, you know that's a mess. It's a mess really. The stats speak for themselves it's just there is such a mistrust between the police and the communities that they serve that it just created an environment in which there's hostility between two sides So you can imagine, you know a police officer or white police officers who's... You know what? You've seen things like Teach First right. Let's bring it out of the police thing right! You see like the Teach First in schools now they bring in something like Teach First will train up a teacher

32:57 The Jonnie Jensen Show, Jonnie Jensen They absolutely get, they struggle because like it's so far from them right? Well if you give that person some handcuffs Some CS spray A baton a badge a uniform and you put them in that context what are they gonna do They have no understanding. They have no way of connecting, no way of relating they don't and they've got the authority now of hate of the police behind them so it makes for a bad concoction you know what I mean? Yeah and do you know in that situation that person, the police person more than the teacher they're suddenly in a state of fear so their actions aren't necessarily consistent with

34:06 Their own beliefs or their own. So that, like creating flashpoints of disconnect I can really see that there's where communication we're understanding where relatedness should exist there's disconnect and fear and resentment And there's no doubt you get those that for whom it's like they're going to get those bad black people anyway. They've come into the job to go to that part of the city or country, to deal with those bad black people, or those bad Asians or whatever. You know what I mean? That's what their program is. But iIve wrote in my notes about this today like the idea and I'm not from a

34:47 I'm Even the politicians, you're kind of like well yeah maybe that's how they grew up but they're trying to do a job for us. Why are you throwing out them in? And a lady I know, Ola she said you know you got understand the context of that it take away the negativity and just say that they have a privilege that they were in that situation They don't have to have a different context

35:24 Their context was their leafy suburb or whatever their upbringing, upbringing was. And so that gives them that white privilege not take away the not negative, no good or bad they have a white privilege they have a perspective that isn't broad enough to really consider all needs and feelings I've lost my train of thought slightly but ah damn it it'll come back to me What was my concern about that? It's completely gone. It'll come back, it will come back. Wait till you get to 54. I know! I'm just trying to pick up the whole conversation there but Errol where did you leave us on what you were saying a second ago?

36:17 The example of like, you know Teach First talking about white police officer comes in has no reference points. Some come in because that's their mission to deal with those black people so you end up with hostility. You're talking about stop and search and what have you. I was talking about communities yeah I got it! I'm back, I'm back in the room! Communities right? So if you take an inner city community and all the associations that people have with that crime drugs Even down to like really, oh rape bad just distinctly bad people. There's a level at which that is put upon a particular community, a black community maybe but actually it's far more circumstantial than it is common on their race or origins surely? Like its human thing putting those circumstances this what we will degenerate to regardless of where we come from

37:12 Is that a problem in some of those inner city or lower income communities, do you think? I hate that narrative. I hate the narrative. I hate the narrative because historically there's so much evidence of flourishing black communities and let me go back to America first of all, I can't even go back when my grandparents were in Jamaica and how they flourished there but even like the times when it was like the 60s in America when you know Detroit was booming and at so many parts of the country with booming black businesses

37:51 talk about Oklahoma and Tulsa, you know all these parts of the country were just thriving. The black pound was like the pound for companies to go after that dollar and it wasn't until certain policies came in place that impacted the black communities I mean if you can check out what happened in Tulsa The bombing in Tulsa, Oklahoma where the police force flew planes over bombed and lynched a black community just purely because of the racist environment. But they were prospering so much that they wiped out our whole community and killed hundreds of people as an example. So our history... Black history is not one of poverty is not one

38:42 You know, black people don't have that background. Yeah I don't have that... you know what i'm saying? It's not who we are no so the narrative and what sold media and all that kind of stuff It's just over the last kind of 20, not 20 like since like this maybe since those years let's say. The narrative that has come in and can I focus on one more thing on this? The prison pipeline that has been created so the prison big business

39:20 Some of you might know, you guys might know how these private prisons are owned or the same record labels. The big record companies own a lot of these private prisons and so they understand that if we put this music out this violence is crime and all the different things We program their kids towards violence and crime. We get them along this prison pipeline, our prisons are populated and so it's all very intentional or very strategic. Is the problems In the American prison system, similar in the UK? Is that happening here in the UK or is... I have read today how many more what the numbers here. The disproportionate number of black people in UK prisons this says and I can't valify these stats are just found online today it's in the UK I make up 14% of the UK population but 25 percent at the prison population

40:22 So it's a different system here in the UK, but there is still a disproportionate number of black people in prison than there are white people. Yeah I've done Prison Ministry in both Wandsworth and Brixton prisons about a while back And it was the first time ever that I was going into a prison to actually do ministry. So even for me as a black person, I was totally shocked by the number of black men that were in there

40:59 You know, people that were doing life and we were in the 60s 70s in prison. And to have the whole chapel filled with black men sitting there you know at first I was nervous but I ministered and it was just so hard to I think it's important to grasp that so many of my black brothers are in there, regardless of whether they're guilty or not. The fact that there are so many of them in there and you know unfortunately other people get away with a lot of stuff but it did shock me and that is me as a black man. Some people would say if you did the crime then go to prison but

41:52 Keep going back, back behind that and say well okay but... What's causing that? And then what position were they put in that and then what position with their family put in there. And even down to the number of families, that leaves growing up without a father but growing up without a man figure in the family. I can just say appreciate the questions and comments from Rose and Jenny and Tyler it's just really appreciate people who are watching and commenting on the video so thank you Sorry, going back to what you said Tony. The disproportionate number of black people in the UK prison population is that a case you think of heavy handedness in the way that black communities are policed or can you see any reason for that? Is it racially motivated in anyway do

42:52 Just talking as a normal person, where black people are there. And, you know what I've seen on the streets. You know they are victimized and yes there are certain people from the black community that are making it much more difficult for us to change the narrative especially when the press and anybody else connected to that will... The media shall i say will focus on and That they're big, bad and black and they can do this and they can do that because there's no other alternative. I suppose in jobs people are now deciding that they want to you know do drugs and be drug seller because they're making money You know? And when they live the life of what the rap artists or what the music industry is actually showing them Which ties into what Errol was saying There's a degree

44:04 Propaganda and positioning and influencing people in a negative way. Which in itself should be an eye opener to people, it should shock people In that documentary the 13th tells you about ALEC It's a political and corporate entity that helps shape laws in America It's just startling. I don't know how much of it goes on in the UK, but i think it's important that we at least have an understanding of what goes on and if you're saying... It's not just enough to say well there's more of this particular type of person in prison because they must have done the crime. We're saying well what's going on? Are they being arrested more regularly than white people are they? From what I read this week in America someone who's committed a crime and is white, the same person if they're black and commit the same crime is more likely

45:07 Which in itself does nothing for the communities that those people come from. I suppose one way to look at the comparisons between the two countries are America is overt and the UK is covert, their racism Right. In general, and I made that statement because you know what we experience is usually in a covert way right? It's very subtle but it's still equally as painful Okay this is great! And I definitely wanted to touch on this so what is that like you know as a black person going about your day-to-day business what are some of the just

45:52 Low, low level. Someone said to me today, Ola said to me this week she said, do you know what Jonnie? It's that expression like a thousand little cuts. That's what it's like. She said that is what it's like and and you wouldn't, you couldn't imagine what that's like unless unless you were me. And she goes worse than that. She goes I'm a black woman so I get both double whammy she says. So what are those thousand cuts? What Perhaps by some people inadvertent racism that happens on a regular basis. For me, I think it started quite early looking for jobs and you sent your CVs out my first name is Leroy i am now Tony yeah as soon as I changed my cv I was fine I could get interviews um I would get jobs the whole thing

46:46 And that was quite easy. It was one manager that said to me when I was in the job, I think you need to change your name to Tony and I did just trying to have a quiet life and it just made things easier because i used to do sales calls and you say my name is Tony Ashley would you like to come and meet me? They'd come to the office and they sit downstairs at reception and then you go downstairs they said my name is Tony Ashley hi nice to meet you So, was he expecting a blonde haired blue eyed person? It's me. You know it is that all the time so you change your name I would have four shopping bags in my hand and i'll be walking down the street and then lady will be grabbing her handbag those little subtle things

47:40 Or not being served, or waiting a long time to be served. Most of the times I never cotton on because it's because I'm black but you'd be waiting ages in a restaurant. In a pub or restaurant? It's not like your small either Tony! No, you can't miss me! Sorry, I didn't see you over there! Yeah so yeah those are the strange...I mean it goes on and It's just one of those things you feel like, I don't even want to talk about it. And at the same time if I don't educate people and let them understand how you feel in some groups

48:23 Even in some churches how one is made to feel. And you know the older generations will actually tell you their stories of when they came over here and they thought, well I'm going to church that's what they did over there i'm going to church and made it feel unwelcomed. And funnily enough that situation still happens but not with the black people, its with the Iranians And you know, I've had Iranians coming from West London to my church in East London because they were made to feel totally unwelcomed in a predominantly white church. Wow yeah okay You know and it's that sense of...you know and then what happened was that there were some white people that left our church because they're uncomfortable with the Iranians coming into church All under the basis if we're Christians together? Oh yeah Exactly! Of course Yeah wow

49:18 So we're doing, you know people are doing it to each other. It's like there is a degree to which this is a conversation about black people but you're talking here really about the racial intolerance between all races of people to each other and do you notice I wrote some, I've written a whole bunch of stuff today yeah? I'd like to think that I don't see people's colour any more than I see he's short she's got I'm Yes, I am right now. So there's things that I observe like how I notice people differently it doesn't mean i'm not attracted to any black people like it's just maybe for me in that inquiry where I see people and notice people come up if someone is being aggressive or loud in a playground particularly around here in Maidstone It will more commonly be a white family

50:22 You know, a bit of an agro kind of you know council estate sort of family than it will be the Polish family who are probably there with a couple of generations of family. There might be three or four families having a picnic together they're sticking together but they're hanging out they're behaving and they seem more approachable than perhaps some of the lairier British families going on So it's interesting to hear that, you know your experience there of different races and that intolerance across the board. Wow! What... how? You read a lot about the how it's harder to be a black person. You just touched on there Tony about getting a job and stuff. Errol, you went to a grammar school so that was a positive but you're the only black person for person there. To what degree is

51:19 Is it real? To what degree is it harder, I don't think white people truly understand. I think they see on TV and be like yeah can't be that bad surely but how real is that? You know, I have to be clear that I'm not a victim and I'm not trying to be in any kind of victim mentality or mindset. I'm not denying the struggle. I'm not denying how hard its been for me But by the grace of God, you know God has helped me to overcome that and I feel no inferiority or intimidation by any race at this stage in my life. The reality is that when something like George Floyd happens

52:04 It shows that there's a communal trauma and individual trauma that hasn't been addressed in so many lives. People, these day-to-day slights, day to day jibes You know, someone not giving you an opportunity. Someone overlooking you. Someone not taking it seriously. Someone choosing not to involve you in a conversation or talk to you as though you're not human. Someone talking down to you. Someone... you're standing with three people and you having a three-way chat

52:42 And someone acts like you're not there. Or so you're standing talking to someone and someone comes in steps in the conversation as though you're not there and ignores you completely, you know? Someone doesn't welcome or greet you these are the typical things that The Jonnie Jensen Show, I want to add to that, to say that...I remember reading an article about Trevor McDonald the news reader. And they asked him, said, Trevor McDonald how did you get so high? To become the News at Ten anchor You're on TV every night! and he said, I didn't see racism Didn't see it. Kept my head down and kept going and just focused like that

53:41 And what you will get in life, there are different people who respond in different ways. Even in my grandparents' era when they were being chased around by these teddy boys and all that's going on right? There was some black people who somehow kept it going right I know Professor Richard Sargent, remember him saying to me about this there are different types of that is there's some that called strategic conformist he says and those who are in denial of the existence of racism they don't see as far as their concerned and they've made a strategic decision to get to the top

54:23 And just get there no matter what. So they're prepared to sell their mums, you know and dads that need me to achieve their goal You will have those kinds of people Not that it's not happening to them but they conform and they get there Then you got those who are the survivors Survivors are fully aware of the reality of racism, discrimination But they're not prepared to put their head above the parapet. They're not prepared to get, you know... And most people probably have been in that survivor category like they don't see any point in challenging a narrative or say any point because they are wasting time so what's the point? They are there at work and they got to get a pension end of day You know and then give it to church and give to social cause and they survive

55:15 But then you get those who said they were the outsiders. The outsiders, instead of those who received their schooling and higher education in the Caribbean or in Africa so that these guys have not been trained up in the system and now they don't have any understanding of racism? My wife's Nigerian she came here to do a masters degree she has no... when I talked about race like what is it like I don't get it She's never known anything other than being black So she's like, I'm just who i am and so um you know they put up with it. You know they put up with it and get on with it like It's not such a big deal And then he says you get those who are collectivists These are the heroic black professionals He says

56:02 They just have it, they understand it. They get it and they challenge it and they don't care about what it costs them to challenge it is a hunger and desire to succeed and develop and progress as people And so what's happening now by the looks of it is that this kind of collectivist thing, the response we're seeing right now is this multi-racial, multigenerational collectivist response where people are saying you know what I don't care what it costs me. I don't care if you're gonna say that I shouldn't be out here because of Covid. We like we're tired of having to play like

56:38 Reverend Ashley said, Tony said before that we started about Lenny Henry and you know Frank Bruno. You know we don't want to have to be the clown in a room anymore. We don't have to be playing any games anymore like just accept me for who I am. I am who I am understand my story respect my story. I respect you, you respect me And see past my skin colour. Don't disrespect my skin colour, but see that inside me is a human being that deserves respect and honour just like you deserve respect and honour in level playing field. Welcome back! Amazing thank you if you're catching me right now that means that you've just listened to about an hour of That Expert Hangout on waking up to racism

57:39 It opened my eyes hugely and not just in isolation, right? But I really realised that there were some conversations questions being asked there. I was looking at things in a new way things that hadn't asked before and these are people I've known for 10-12 years And so what's that like to have friends that we don't ask questions of That we don't go the full mile with And yeah, there's a second part. I will edit that up and it will follow on way quicker than the normal podcast schedule so you can expect that in about 24 hours It'll be Part 2 of The Waking Up To Racism. I hope you've enjoyed it please like and share subscribe to any of the channels being part team Superdad is about community and In no way would I ever want this community to have any kind of

58:37 This has been Team Superdad. Find us at teamsuperdad.com