Waking Up To Racism Pt1 - Expert Hangout Podcast

00:00 Hello, we are waking up to racism. This is the Team Super Dad Expert Hangout. We're talking with Errol Lawson and Tony Ashley about the challenges we're all facing as we wake up to racism in the world today. Roll theme. Welcome to Team Super Dad. Real dads creating their best lives ever. More time, more money, more fun. You are not alone. You're on Team Super Dad. Hello and welcome to the Team Super Dad podcast. This episode is an expert hangout. If you've not tuned in before, well welcome. The expert hangout is where I get a couple of different people on to talk about the same subject.

00:44 Sometimes two, three, four. I kind of worked out it works better with a couple of us though. And this week, Errol Lawson, Tony Ashley, both friends of mine, for a while now, actually, about 10 years, both of them, a little bit longer for Tony. But as you'll see from the interview, both black gentlemen and what a timely subject, really, you're in the world today. We actually recorded this a couple of weeks ago and following the George Floyd incident, let alone however many years, decades, even centuries of other incidents, I just felt that I didn't know enough about racism.

01:24 I didn't know enough about what it was like to be a black person. I think I don't even think I really knew what to call a black person. Obviously, in the world today, you hear a lot. You hear people of color, you hear African Americans, you hear black people. And, you know, like, if I don't even know something as simple as that, if I'm uncomfortable or feeling concerned about something as simple as that, then blimey. How much deeper does it go? And that's something that I've really come to question, come to ask myself. And we all need to.

02:02 As dads, as employers, as business owners, leaders, as people in our community, friends, you know, we've got, we work with black people, we work with black and Asian minorities. And, you know, it's speaking for myself at 46 years old, I haven't experienced a lot of like overt, nasty racism. But I can think of experiences in my life where I've seen it. I can think of experiences in my life where I've said the wrong thing and I've been corrected by a friend, you know.

02:43 And so it's at all levels. It permeates into our lives. And from documentaries like the 13th or Spike Lee's movie, The Black Klansman, there's just so much out there that we could educate ourselves with. And yet we don't. I say we, I speak for myself actually probably better. I haven't up until now. And with this George Floyd incident, this killing, you know, the world's hopefully waking up. I've taken it upon myself to have a better understanding.

03:25 The expression, and I'm sorry, I seem to be stuttering a little or bumbling a little bit. Some of these things are hard to say. It's hard to know what to do. And that's the thing that we must all take on. It's not enough to be not racist. You know, we all have to become anti-racist. And that's been a bit of a meme that's been going around. And I saw it a number of times. And I really thought to myself, first of all, what does that mean? And then the second of all, how does that relate to me? And the thing that sprang to mind most was around football. You know, we see about Kick It Out and we see in the UK a famous footballer called Raheem Sterling being covered in the press, making a stand, coming out in interviews.

04:07 And it just occurs to me too much, like that's that's all that's happened on the football pitch. That's that's out of order, that's outrageous. But I only see it in the context of that football match in that incident. I never really thought about it of he's been experiencing that his whole life. What's that like for him? What was that like for his family? And as you dig deeper into that, you start to learn that black parents tell their kids different things. The sort of information, the guidance, the encouragement, the warnings that parents of black children give are different than that of white parents, certainly ones that I would have heard growing up.

04:45 And so I really wanted this to be an awakening for myself so that I could better lead the Team Superdad community so that I could better educate my kids, so that I could better work with black or Asian people. than anything, I wanted to do my part. So I hope you enjoy this. If you do, comment, like, share. There's a bunch of resources on the blog post of this interview, of this conversation of this expert hangout. And they're all listed there. I recommend you go and check them out, watch some of the documentaries on Netflix. Make a stand for yourself first and foremost and get wise. So without further ado, my good friends, Tony and Errol, join me.

05:26 And I look forward to seeing you on the other side. Ask comments as we go along. Leave comments as we go along. Please feel free to share this. It's important that we get as many people, get this out to as many people as possible so that we get to make an impact and start to shift attitudes, shift mindset inside of the white community, you know, inside of people like me and you, so that we can have a better understanding of what's going on, so that we can make a better stand for our black and Asian friends and community, and so that the world can change. It needs to. It fundamentally needs to. Our history,

06:06 our national holidays, our statues, you know, we need to have an awakening so that we start to understand exactly what it's like. And most of all, most of all, no one should have to experience life differently because of the skin color. You know, we can get onto socio and economic backgrounds. That's fine. But first and foremost, no one should have to experience life differently because of their skin color. I hope you enjoy this expert hangout. I look forward to seeing you on the other side. Oh, and by the way, it's super long. So we're going to do it in two parts. So when you get to 60 minutes, just like the normal Team Super Dad podcast episodes, it's going to finish. And then there'll be a part two, which I really hope you come and join us for the second part. In the second part, Errol asked me a couple of questions, which again were really enlightening for me.

06:50 So I'm going to stop waffling on now. It's a bit different than some of the normal expert hangouts. I hope you love it. I hope you can do something with it. And like I said, I'll see you on the other side. Good evening. Welcome to the Team Super Dad Expert Hangout. It's Monday night, as always, eight o'clock, sometimes five minutes later. We are here though, around the world across different Team Super Dad channels, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter. It's great to have you here. Team Super Dad is a community of dads who want more. We are supercharging dads' lives across the world. Whether you want to be more, make more, or play more. It really is about, you know, those areas where perhaps you want to be a bit fitter.

07:30 Perhaps you want to have a bit more time with your kids. So have a slightly better relationship. What I found in my life is that there are, we try and do too much. We try and, you know, we're great in one area and perhaps just hope that the other area is going to be all right. Well, what if there were people around us who were super good at staying fit and someone else was super good at managing their money? Well, they're the kind of people we want to get together with and just build community, build groups, build, you know, that whole idea of we are the six people we spend our most time with. So let's make sure we're hanging out with some good people as often as possible. And tonight very much exemplifies that as I'm hanging out with two awesome guys. Tony, who's top left on my screen, and Errol, who's in the middle underneath both of us.

08:15 It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the Expert Hangout tonight. And thanks so much for accepting my invitation. Tony, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm doing good. I'm doing good as well as can be. Yeah. Yeah, awesome. Whereabouts are you in the world, Tony? Tell us a little bit about yourself. I'm in Stoke Newington. I'm a Baptist minister and I pastor a church there. I was in East London in a place called Aldersbrook, which many people haven't heard of, so it's really hard to explain where it is. But it's nice and leafy. Yeah, so I've been in ministry for about seven years now and I'm still enjoying it. Yeah, of course, because when we first met you, you weren't, were you? That's right. Yeah, yeah.

08:59 My last secular job was working for British Transport Police in the recruitment division and I helped police officers go through their promotions. That's exactly right. Now I totally remember that. Well, thank you so much. And so new interesting in that's a kind of London area still, isn't it? Yeah, London. London, Geez. Academy. So East London, good. Awesome. And how big's your, you know, the church is... It's roughly about 80. Okay, right. So it's a nice fair number. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having us here tonight. And Errol, where are you? And good to see you, buddy. Yeah, you too, man. You too. Thanks for putting this together, man.

09:41 So based in Birmingham. I leave a church called The Bridge Church in a place called Harbourne in Birmingham. We're a church plant. So we're just a year old now, 12 months old. And, you know, God has been in a minute. amazing things. And whilst doing that, I'm also running a business where we provide mentoring, training, leadership development, consultancy, um, predominantly in the education sector, but also in some of the private and public spaces, too. Yeah, and I just know how many lives you've impacted, uh, Errol. Of course, you have as well, Tony. But I know through Errol's work, um, coaching kids in schools, teenagers, your books.

10:24 I mean, you're being uh uh, I'll speak on your behalf and acknowledge you for how many uh families and the lives of young people you you have made a difference. So, thank you for being here. Oh, thank God, man. Thank you. Yeah, awesome. So, this is uncomfortable, guys, right? I mean, I uh uh Paul watching, Marcia watching. If anybody else is watching, uh, please, and I can see normally we get about two to three hundred people on the lives across the different channels. So, if you are watching, then please help us, you know, start a watch party, share this in the different groups that you're participating in. If you're watching on the replay, still do that. Thank you very much. Um, Kobe, scratching, good to have you on.

11:04 There's going to be, I'm expecting quite a few more. And I just want to say up front, like this subject, it's not me jumping on a bandwagon, it's it's it's been a real eye-opener. I was on a on a Zoom call on was Monday night, I think it was Tony, wasn't it? And it was uh a group of us who were all friends from different landmark courses. And I was the only white person, I was the only white guy. Tony, I think you were the only other guy on there. I wasn't there. Oh, you weren't there, okay? No, I wasn't there, no, no, right. Okay, ah, you obviously people were saying, talk to Tony, talk to Tony, but it was just

11:45 you know, people from Iran, people from the Caribbeans, other people from different parts of Africa, Sangeeta from Pakistan. And obviously, everything's going on with America and George Floyd. And it's just really awoken in me at this reality that I don't really know much about the subject of racism. And the posts that I've seen this week saying it's not enough not to be racist, it's time that we stood up and were anti-racist. And you know, slogans like that, Raheem Sterling springs to mind, you know, as over the last 18 months, a footballer who's been high-profile and really raised the topic of

12:29 racism, anti-racism, the English England football team, you know, over, I forget where it was, but it was in Eastern Europe. And I hear these news items, I have an opinion, like, okay, that's outrageous. Um, and I just get back on in my life, and it's in this week with all the stuff that's going on in the world that I've really in this Zoom call on Monday that I've really questioned how much do I know? Like, how much do I stand up, stand up for this subject? Now, I wouldn't be okay with someone being racially abusive to a friend of mine standing next to me in a pub, or even someone I didn't know in a pub.

13:08 But then, but still, how much have I turned a blind eye to? And that could be made no more apparent by watching the 13th this week on Netflix and just seeing like a story unfold of a journey from slavery through to 2.5 million people in American prisons and what percentage of those are black and how much it like plays on communities. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I don't have a clue. And then you think, well, in what other circumstances have people allowed things to go on for too long under the premise of, well, it doesn't really affect me, or I don't understand it.

13:49 And it's not too close to turning a blind eye, basically. And so this tonight is me saying I don't want to turn a blind eye anymore. So, and I want to make it clear: we're not here to dig up shocking stories. We're not here to, you know, to rally people to anything that they're not already rallied to. But if I can become more conscious out of this conversation tonight, then I feel that other people might be able to as well. And I'm so thrilled that you two were able to take me up on this invitation because I know, obviously, clearly you have personal perspective on it, but as well representing different communities in Birmingham, in London, and some of how

14:37 that experience, you both got, you're both married, you got your children, you've got wives. Like, there's a lot here where I've got children. I was married. Hopefully, I will be married again. We're just guys. And I think that the more that we can realize that everybody's opportunities in life should be the same. People shouldn't feel different concerns when they hear a police siren than other people. People shouldn't go into a job having different concerns than another person because of their skin colour. And that for me is really the heart and the intention of tonight's call. So thanks. I've written some questions. I don't know. I'm not going to sit here and read them. I think we just hopefully just go with the flow.

15:17 If we hit the normal kind of time for this, then we'll let the live stream carry on. But for anyone listening to the podcast, I'll probably do it. I'll cut it in half and do a second episode. And I just thank you all for joining us. Feel free to ask questions. I can see them coming in and I'll try and field them and share them with Errol and Tony. And let's just go for it. Let's see what we can make happen. Good. So I've got a here's a good question to start us off with, right? What do black people like want to be called, right? I got, you got, it's like uncomfortable, yeah. I see more and more people on TV, black people saying, oh, we are people of color. And then Black Lives Matter is on signs all around the world.

16:01 Blame is the black, starts with black. I know it's Asian and I don't even know what the hell. It's kind of like my level of awareness. I don't even know what blame, flame fully stands for. How does that sit with you guys? How do you refer to yourselves? Well, I suppose let me answer first because I like to answer first on that one. You know, I'd like to be called black simply because I couldn't say, oh, I had a chat with Johnny the other day. He's a pink, pasty kind of looking guy with a bit of a tan. No, he's a white guy. You know, that's me personally. You know, just call me a black guy.

16:41 You know, when it becomes, you know, Tony's a person of colour, it's like, what are you talking about? You feel a bit awkward. You know, it's just not natural. Just call me black. It's okay. It's fine. You know, just other bits that are added on don't need to be added on. That's all. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was when I was thinking about that, I'm happy to be called white, but I haven't got all the other connotations that come with the different layers that perhaps come with it, you know. So, yeah, political correctness, right? You know, we're in this world now, everyone's trying to make everyone feel comfortable. And so, what do we call them? Do we call them, you know, are they black? Are they people of color?

17:23 Are they BAME and BME and B-A-M-E? And we're just black. I personally, and I can't speak, I won't try to speak for every black person. No, of course. Know that there's some black person out there that feels like they want to be called Nubian or they want to be called, you know, African or something else, you know. But I'm happy with black. That's cool. And are you both of black African origin or is it Caribbean or what's your generational kind of origins there? Caribbean. Right. Caribbean, Jamaica. I can hear it now. Well, that's a good question, though, you know, because oftentimes there's a disconnect.

18:08 Because I would say, well, my parents are Jamaican. Interestingly, I did a DNA test recently and my DNA showed me that my root is in Nigeria. Okay. In fact, a tribe called the Yoruba tribe in Nigeria is where my root is. Now, so there's a journey, a historical genealogy going back to Nigeria, right? One of the challenges for a lot of us as black people growing up in this country was that there's no sense of root. There's no sense of culture. There's no sense of where we actually come from.

18:43 And so it's really important, I think, for black people to understand, but also for white people to understand as well that number one, there's a challenge around who am I, my identity, my culture, my history, because I don't know. When we grew up in school, in primary school, I remember seeing like we did a thing called a 24-hour famine. And this was like a thing that some charity had run where we were going on this kind of famine thing to raise money for starving kids in Africa.

19:20 And so our conditioning around Africa was that there were starving kids who were swatting flies, who were poor, who were, we did not want to be anything near African. I remember two sisters that came to our primary school from Africa. And when they came, we mocked them, we bullied them because like, you're African, like, uh, like, and so there's. this kind of disconnect that we've been programmed to even hate dislike our own historical roots, yeah. And so, that's that's caused an identity crisis too. Yeah, I mean, that's you're already touching on elements of

20:02 themes inside that documentary, the 13th. And I'll speak about the 13th because I just watched it the other day. I know there's lots of others, I know that my level of knowledge is this thin, but it was just they were saying in there, like, this how um talking about black crime in America and over the generations of what they've done with the prison system and the change in the laws, where black communities are outraged about the violent black people, and so they came to accept themselves as oh, we are, we are, we are to be feared, we are. And then you said it a minute ago as well, Tony, before we before we press record, like going into a job and kind of trying to quieten yourself down for for for fear of what people already think of you.

20:46 And there was there was something went around the internet today as well. Um, I took a screen grab of it. Um, where is it? I have to make myself smaller or be labeled an angry black person, like, which is pretty much what you were saying there. So, Errol, these this I can really see that as well because growing with a very similar age, Tony, how old are you? I think you're 54. So, you've got a couple of years, a couple of years on me and Errol, but yeah, like Ethiopia banned band band aid live aid. Um, yeah, yeah, I can totally see that. Like, you're you're from Africa, but actually, Africa's full of starving people who are poor, and like you can't be proud of that when actually you've well, that's like some weird twisted thing in inside.

21:31 And again, it's a level of complete unawareness as a white person there, not thinking or feeling anything the same as what you guys experienced. And how many black people were in your school, Errol? Is it what kind of community did you grow up in? So, I grew up in an inner city Birmingham. Um, so a place called Hansworth in Birmingham. Went to a primary school called St. Mary's, which was predominantly black and Asian. Um, you might have had maybe one or two white kids in our year group, you know, okay. Um, but um, I then passed 111 plus and went to a school, a grammar school on the other side of Birmingham, a place called Sutton Coldford, where I was the only black boy in my year group.

22:16 Culture shock, culture shock, mate, culture shock. I was surrounded by like no, I had some good friends there, but there were some real racist people there. And you know, I had a WhatsApp message today to check their tweets, the Twitter feed of my old school. And apparently, there's some like some posts where they've got some kids dressed up in slavery and all this chains and stuff, you know, and talking about like the culture that was there when I was there still there, basically, right? Um, so that was really, really tough. But something you said earlier about

22:57 you know, having to play small to be small, to silence yourself. Um, just to give some context to that, right? Yeah, so it's a quick story, just for context. So, age 14, um, myself and some friends, my cousin, we go to Coventry, we live in Birmingham, we get a bus to Coventry, it's an hour journey, and we get there in the afternoon, we're walking through the town center, and some security guards start kind of following us, and we notice them. Uh, and we'll get to the end of this concourse, and the police are waiting there for us, and they say we're arresting you on suspicion of robbery, and we're like, Huh, like what?

23:38 And um, so I asked, like, when did this happen? Like, what time was this? He said it was this morning, and so I showed him my boss ticket, my day saver ticket. Yeah, that was evidence that I was still in Birmingham then, hadn't even gotten the bus, you know. We're arresting you anyway, they said. And so, um, they locked us up, and um, my dad came to get us from Birmingham. And um, the interesting thing was that day, I got home and I got my backside whooped that day, yeah. Now, and this was the thing, um, I got whooped because I shouldn't have been there.

24:15 Now, it wasn't a case of an injustice was done, let's go to the police and complaints commission, whatever. Let's, you know, let's protest. Yeah, it was you shouldn't have been there. And so, if you can imagine just the whole mindset of that culture, we can't condition from a young age just to say, you know what, don't expect anything different. different. Don't fight back. Keep your head down. Work hard. Don't get caught up. And so from a young age, that's how we were trained to even think there was no other reality.

24:54 There was no way we could, you know. And so it took a lot, it's taken a lot to fight through that to shake that off and to break through by the grace of God and start doing stuff. Wow, that just, I mean, and I'm just processing that really, you know, because again, I think I'm 14. How many times have I walked through the through the shopping centers? And we'll come back to that definitely. But Tony, you said the same thing when police knocking at your door. This was recently, was it? And you said again, again, another, like, what are you doing here? Why are you knocking on my door again?

25:32 Yeah, and it's quite funny because we were chatting last week and we were talking about how would I recognize the doorbell ringing that it was the police because I immediately got up and went, somebody's ringing the doorbell like it's the police. And I went to the door and I was just about to like make a joke and it was the police. And I thought, well, how did they know I'm on the computer protesting? And it wasn't, it wasn't that they had they said they had a call for number five. And did I make that call? And I said, no. So you're not flat five. And I live in a five-story, four-story house.

26:09 And I said, no, it's all. And it was like, are you sure? I said, this is, and I had the attitude then, this is all one house, you know, and you know, and then they walked off, and, you know, nothing else happened, but I was still shaken because it's, it could have turned out totally different. Yeah. And you feel that all the time. You know, I live quite close to the police station. So when you hear the sirens or when you're driving through traffic lights and you hear the sirens, you know, my belly goes because I'm thinking, is it going to be me this time? You know, I have been stopped a few times. And one classic time was you fit the description of XYZ that we're looking for.

26:54 And I just come back from marriage counselling with my minister, you know, and they've left me. You know, so you go through that and it's like, oh, this is part of life. You know, Errol was explaining the type of schools that he was in. And I was in a school called Forest All Boys. It was predominantly white in my first year. And then it got more mixed, shall I say? I grew up in the time of the New Cross fire. And my best friend was in that fire. So he's 13, I think. What was the New Cross fire, just in case people don't know? New Cross fire. I can't remember the year. What year was it? Do you know Errol?

27:38 Can you remember? Basically, it was a party in New Cross and 1981. Yeah, and I think it was 13 that died in that fire. Protests transpired after that because there was no resolve on it to this day. But you can imagine being at school. There's no counseling back then. So you're at school, you're sitting in the classroom, and your best friend is not sitting next to you. And, you know, even the headmaster walks in and says, Have you seen Andrew? And I say no. And then he just walks off. And nothing further than that was said other than announced in school that

28:21 he was dead. And to have the experience of walking in the playground, no count, remember, no counselling, no care, and white kids walking up to you and saying, Oh, I see you didn't get burnt. Like mocking, you kind of like playground, like kind of playground banter, but like clearly deeply offended. Just so people know, there was a house fire in 1981. There was a house party, and the blades killed 13 young black people aged between 14 and 22. Yeah, and you don't get over it. You know, you deal with it and you remember it. And it's, it's, I suppose it's not as painful as it was back then.

29:06 But it still hurts when you think that people would carelessly say something like that when you're grieving. You know, it's a huge loss. But those are the kind of experiences. It's not to make anybody feel guilty. You know, what happened to George Floyd? Why people don't understand why everybody, all black people are up in arms, because it reminds you of everything. that you've gone through where you have suppressed your own breath in what has happened to you. It might be large, it might be small, but it's equally as painful.

29:45 You know, there is no therapy or class that you can go to, no treatment that you can go to to discuss racism. There is if you've been raped or victim, you know, of various crimes, etc., trauma, you know, post-traumatic disorder. You know, you can have some kind of treatment. You can't have any discussion forum or to talk to someone about the racism that you go through and you have to deal with. And most importantly, or most the worst thing is that you have to actually suck it up and deal with it and be the better person.

30:26 That's what I'm saying about thinking this week about feeling it. And it ties into what you were saying, Errol. Is someone growing up feeling like there's this glass ceiling just above them where they can have to limit their self-expression or where they go or how loud they might be at a party or, I mean, some of the stories, obviously from America, they're all being brought back up now. People have been shot in certain scenarios where they were doing nothing, where they were holding an ice cream, where they were in their own house, where they were. And this isn't necessarily for us to comment on some of those things because people can go and find it on the internet.

31:09 But I was really curious was about just how that manifests itself in the UK and what it's like as a black person to experience that. And what I hear inside of all this is how generational it is. If your parents felt a little bit oppressed and their grandparents felt a little bit oppressed, then you've got generations of people growing up who have not been able to fully express themselves. Like if you put a plant in a pot that's too small for it, it needs to grow. People need to express themselves.

31:45 So, you know, I think this touches neatly into the whole stop and search, which you don't hear so much about in the TV and news these days, but it's been more of a prominent subject. In your communities and in your experience growing up, how does that play out? What's that like? How oppressive is that? Talk about like police stop and search and the proportion of how many more black people get stopped and searched than others. Yeah, you know, it's a mess. It's a mess, really. The stats speak for themselves.

32:23 It's just, there is such a mistrust between the police and the communities that they serve that it's just created an environment and a culture in which there's just hostility. There's hostility between two sides. So you can imagine, you know, a police officer, a white police officer who's, you know, you've seen things like Teach First, right? Let's bring it out of the police thing, right? You see like the Teach First, like in schools now, they bring in something like Teach First will train up a teacher really quickly and they come from a leafy suburb into an inner city comprehensive with no reference points, no understanding.

33:07 They don't know the culture, don't know the language, all that stuff. And they come in and it's like they sink, they absolutely get, they struggle because like it's so far from them, right? Well, if you you give that person some handcuffs, some CS spray, a baton, a badge, a uniform, and you put them in that context, what they're going to do, they have no understanding, they have no way of connecting, no way of relating. They don't, and they've got the authority now of the police behind them. So it makes for a bad concoction, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, you know,

33:55 I can see as well in that situation that that person, the police person more than the teacher, they're suddenly in a state of fear. So their actions aren't necessarily consistent with their own beliefs or their own. And so that, like, creating flashpoints of disconnect. I can really see that. There's where communication, where understanding, where relatedness should exist, there's disconnect and fear and resentment. And there's no doubt you get those that for whom it's like they're going to get the. those bad black people anyway. They've come into the job. They've got to go to that part of the city or country to deal with those bad black people or those bad Asians or whatever.

34:39 You know what I mean? That's what their program is. But I wrote in my notes about this today, like the idea, and I'm not from a low class or low-income community. You know, even this whole expression about white privilege, like up until this week, I heard that as how dare you throw that around? Like, don't throw that at me. I'm like white privilege. Like, I'm not even the politicians, you're kind of like, well, yeah, maybe that's how they grew up, but they're trying to do a job for us. Why are you throwing it at them? And a lady I know, Ola, she said, you know, you've got to understand the context of that. Take away the negativity and just say that they have a privilege, that they were in that situation.

35:21 They don't have to have a different context. Their context was their leafy suburb or whatever their upbringing was. And so that gives them that white privilege. Take away the not negative, not good or bad. They have a white privilege. They have a perspective that isn't broad enough to really consider all needs and feelings. I've lost my train of thought slightly, but damn it. It'll come back to me. What was my concern about that? It's completely gone.

36:03 It's okay. He'll come back. He'll come back. Wait till you get to 50. I'm just trying to pick up the whole conversation though. But Errol, where did you leave us on what you were saying a second ago? So I was saying the example of like, you know, teach first. I'm talking about white police officer comes in, has no reference points. Some come in because that's their mission to deal with those black people. So you end up with hostility. You're talking about stop and search and what have you. I was talking about communities. Yeah, I got it. I'm back. I'm back in the room. Communities, right? So if you take an inner city community and all the associations that people have with that, crime, drugs,

36:47 even down to like really like, oh, rape, bab, like just distinctly bad people. There's a level at which that is put upon a particular community, a black community maybe, but actually it's far more circumstantial than it is a comment on their race or origins, surely. Like it's a human thing put in those circumstances, this is what we will degenerate to, regardless of where we come from. Is that a problem in some of those inner city or lower income communities, you think? If I want to jump on it, I hate that narrative. I hate the narrative. I hate the narrative because historically, there's so much evidence of flourishing black communities.

37:33 I'm going to go back to America first of all. I can go back to when my grandparents were in Jamaica and how they flourished there. But even like the times, I think it was like the 60s in America when Detroit was booming and so many parts of the country were booming. Black businesses, talk about Oklahoma and Tulsa and all these parts of the country were just thriving. The black pound was like the pound for companies to go after. And it wasn't until certain policies came in place that impacted the black communities. I mean, if you go and check out what happened in Tulsa, the bombing in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where the police force flew planes over, bombed and lynched the black community just purely because it was a racist environment, but they were

38:29 prospering so much. They wiped out a whole community and killed hundreds of people as an example. So the Black history is not one of poverty, is not one of, you know, black people don't have that background. Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? It's not who we are. No. So the narrative and what's sold media and all that kind of stuff. It's just over the last kind of 20, not 20, like since like this, maybe since those

39:07 years, let's say, the narrative that's coming and the, if I can say one more thing on this, the prison pipeline that's been created. So the prison, big business, some of you might know, you might guys might know how these private prisons. prisons are owned, or these same record labels, the big record companies own a lot of these private prisons. And so they understand that if we put this music out, this violence, this crime, and all the different things, we program their kids towards violence and crime. We get them along this prison pipeline. Our prisons are populated. And so it's all very intentional, all very strategic.

39:53 Is the problems in the American prison system similar in the UK? Is that happening here in the UK? I have read today how many more, what the, I've got the numbers here, the disproportionate number of black people in UK prisons. This says, I can't validate these stats. I just found them online today. It's in the UK. I make up 14% of the UK population, but 25% of the prison population. So it's a different system here in the UK, but there's still a disproportionate number of black people in prison in the UK than there is white people. Yeah, I've done prison ministry in both Wandsworth and Brixton prison.

40:39 It was about a while back. And it was the first time ever that I was going into a prison to actually do ministry. And so even for me as a black person, I was totally shocked by the number of black men that were in there. You know, people that were doing life and we were in their 60s, 70s in prison. And to have the whole chapel filled with black men sitting there. You know, at first I was nervous, but I ministered and it was just so hard to

41:22 grasp that so many of my black brothers are in there, regardless of whether they are guilty or not. Yeah. The fact that there's so many of them in there, and you know, unfortunately, other people get away with a lot of stuff. You know, but it did shock me. It did shock me. And that's me as a black man. Some people would say, gone, gone. Gone, gone, gone, gone. Well, some people would say, oh, yeah, if you did the crime, then you should go to prison. But you've got to look, keep going back, back, back behind that and say, well, okay, but what's causing that? And then what position were they put in that? And then what position were their family put in in that? And then

42:03 even down to the number of families that leaves growing up without a father, but growing up without a man figure in the family. And can I just say, I appreciate the questions and comments from Rose and Jenny and Tyler. It's just, I really appreciate the people that are watching and commenting on the video. So thank you. So going back to what you said, Tony, the disproportionate number of black people in the UK prison population, is that a case you think of heavy-handedness in the way that black communities are policed

42:45 or can you see any reason for that? Is it racially motivated in any way, do you think? Just talking as a normal person, black people are there. And what I've seen on the streets, they are victimized. And yes, there are certain people from the black community that are making it much more difficult for us to change the narrative, especially when the press and anybody else connected to that will, the media, shall I say, will focus on that

43:25 rather than the good that black people are doing, which causes the fear. And then I suppose for some people, they get the delusions of grandeur that they're big bad and black and they can do this and they can do that because there's no other alternative, I suppose, in jobs. I mean, you know, people are now deciding that they want to, you know, do drugs and be drug seller because they're making money, you know, and they want to live the life of what the rap artists or what the music industry is actually showing them. Which ties into what Errol was saying. There's a degree there of like propaganda and positioning and influencing people in a negative way,

44:11 which in itself should be an eye-opener to people. It should shock people. In that documentary, the 13th, tells you about ALEC, the, the, the, um, it's a, it's a political and corporate entity that helps shape laws in America. Um, startling. Um, it's it's I don't know what how much of it goes on in the UK, but I think I think it's important that we at least have an understanding of what goes on. And if you're saying it's not just enough to say, well, there's more of this particular type of person in prison because they must have done the crime. We're saying, well, what's going on in that community? Are they being arrested more regularly than white people? Are they

44:56 certainly from what I read this week in America? Someone who's committed a crime and is white, the same person, if they're black and committed the same crime, is more likely to go to prison for the same crime, which in itself does nothing for the communities that those people come from. I suppose one way to look at the comparisons between the two countries are America is overt and the UK is covert in their racism. Right. In general, and I made that statement because what we experience is usually in a covert way. Right. It's very subtle and it's but it's still equally as

45:40 painful. Okay, this is great. I definitely wanted to touch on this. So what is that like? You know, as a black person going about your day-to-day business, what are some of the just low, low? Someone said to me today, Ola said to me, not this week, she said, do you know what, Johnny? It's, you know, that expression, like a thousand little cuts, that's what it's like. She said, that is what it's like. And you wouldn't, you could, you couldn't imagine what that's like unless she were me. She goes, she goes, and worse than that, she goes, I'm a black woman. So I get both double whammy. She goes. So what are those thousand cuts? What is that covert, perhaps by some people, inadvertent racism that happens on a regular basis?

46:24 For me, I think it started quite early looking for jobs and you send your CVs out. My first name is Leroy. Right. I am now Tony. Yeah. As soon as I changed my CV, I was fine. I could get interviews. I would get jobs, the whole thing. And that was quite easy. And it was one manager that said to me when I was in the job, I think you need to change your name to Tony. And I did, you know, just trying to have a quiet life. And it just made things easier because I used to do sales calls. And, you know, you say, my name's Tony Ashley. And, you know, would you like to come and meet me?

47:06 And they come to the office and they sit downstairs in reception. And then you go downstairs and they say, My name is Tony Ashley. Hi, nice to meet you. And they look at you like, oh, so was he expecting a blonde-haired, blue-eyed person? It's me. You know, and it's just, you know, it's that all the time. So you change your name. You know, I would have four shopping bags in my hand and I'll be walking down the street and a lady will be grabbing a handbag. Right. You know, those little subtle things or not being served or waiting a long time to be served. And most of the times I never cotton on because it's because I'm black. But you'd be waiting ages, you know, in a restaurant.

47:50 In a power restaurant, a restaurant. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not like you're small either, Tony. No, you can't miss me. Sorry, I didn't see you over there. Yeah. So, yeah, those are the strange. I mean, it goes on and on and on. And it's just one of those things you just feel like, I don't even want to talk about it. And at the same time, if I don't educate people and let them understand how you feel in some groups, even in some churches, how one is made to feel. And, you know, the older generation will actually tell you their stories of when they came over here and they thought, well, I'm going to church.

48:36 That's what they did over there. I'm going to church and made to feel unwelcomed. And funny enough, that situation still happens, but not with the black people. It's with the Iranians. And, you know, I've had Iranians come in from West London to my church in East London because they were made to feel totally unwelcomed in a predominantly white church. Wow, yeah, okay. You know, and it's that sense of, you know, and then what happened was that there were some white people that left our church because they were uncomfortable with the Iranians coming into church. All under the basis of we're Christians together. Oh, yeah, exactly. of course. Yeah.

49:16 Wow. So we're doing, you know, people are doing it to each other. It's like there is, there is a degree to it. This is a conversation about black people, but you're talking here really about the racial intolerance between all races of people to each other. And do you know, I wrote, I've written a whole bunch of stuff. So, you know, I like to think that I don't see people's colour any more than I see he's short, she's got glasses on. Like, of course, I see it. Am I more attracted to white women than I am Chinese women or black women?

49:56 Like, yes, I am. Right now, so there's things that I observe, like how I notice people differently. It doesn't mean I'm not attracted to any black people. Like, it's like, it's just, I'm just, maybe I'm for me, I'm like in that inquiry, right? I see people, I notice people come up. If someone's being aggressive or loud in a playground, particularly around here in Maidstone, it will more commonly be a white family, you know, bit of an aggro kind of, you know, council or state sort of family than it will be the Polish family who are probably there with a couple of generations of family. There might be three or four families having a picnic together. They kind of stick it together, but

50:38 they're hanging out, they're behaving and they seem more approachable than perhaps some of the larier British families going on. So it's interesting to hear that your experience there of different races and that intolerance across the board. Wow. You read a lot about how it's harder to be a black person. You just touched on there, Tony, about getting a job and stuff. Errol you went to a grammar school, so that was a positive, but you're the only black person there. You know, to what degree is it

51:20 real? To what degree is it harder? I don't think white people truly understand that. I think they see it on TV and be like, it can't be that bad, surely. But how real is that? You know, I have to be clear, I'm not a victim and I'm not trying to be in any kind of victim mentality or mindset. I'm not denying the struggle. I'm not denying how hard it's been for me. But by the grace of God, you know, God has helped me to overcome that. And I feel no inferiority or intimidation by any race at this stage in my life. The reality is that when something like George Floyd happens,

52:05 it shows that there's a communal trauma and there are individual trauma that hasn't been addressed in so many lives. These day-to-day slights, day-to-day jibes, day-to-day, you know, someone not giving you an opportunity, someone overlooking you, someone not taking you seriously, someone choosing not to involve you in a conversation or talk to you as oh, you're not human, someone talking down to you, someone you're in a three, you're in, you're standing with three people and you're having a three-way chat and someone acts like you're not there, or you're standing talking to someone and someone comes and steps in the conversation as though you're not there and ignores you completely.

52:52 You know, someone doesn't welcome you or greet you. These are the typical things that happen on a day-to-day. You get overlooked for a position because you're too black. You get overlooked for a promotion because of it. You know, these are things that people are encountering on a day in, day out basis. Now, let me say that I want to add to that to say that I remember reading an article about Trevor McDonald, the newsreader. And they asked him, he said, Trevor McDonald, how did you get so high to become the news at 10 anchor? You're on TV every night. And he said, I didn't see racism.

53:33 Didn't see it. I kept my head down. I kept going. And he just focused like that. And what you will get in life, what you will get, there are different people who respond in different ways. Even in my grandparents' era, when they were being chased around by these teddy boys, they call them and all that's going on, right? There were some black people who somehow they kept it, kept going, right? And I know a professor, Richard Sargent, I remember him saying to me about there are different types. There's some that are called strategic. conformists, he says. And these are those who are in denial of the existence of racism.

54:16 They don't see it as far as they're concerned. And they've made a strategic decision to get to the top and just get there no matter what. And so they're prepared to sell their mums, you know, and dads, if need be, to achieve their goal. You will have those kinds of people. Not that it's not happening to them, but they conform and they get there. Then you got those who are the survivors, he said. Survivors are those who are fully aware of the reality of racism, discrimination, but they're prepared, not prepared to put their head above the parapet. They're not prepared to get, you know, so they're not. And most people, a lot of people probably been in that survivor category.

54:59 Like they don't see any point in challenging the narrative. I don't see any point because they're wasting their time. So what's the point? They're there at work. They're going to get a pension at the end of the day, you know, and they're able to give to their church and give to their social cause and they're surviving. But then you get those, he said, who are the outsiders. The outsiders, he said, are those who receive their schooling and higher education in the Caribbean or in Africa. So that these guys have not been trained up in the system. And so now they don't have any understanding of racism. My wife's Nigerian. She came here to do a master's degree. She has no, when I talked about race, he's like, what is it?

55:40 Like, I don't get it. She's never known anything other than being black. And so she's like, I'm just who I am. And so, you know, they put up with it. You know, they put up with it and get on with it. Like, it's not such a big deal. And then he said, you get those who are collectivists. These are the heroic black professionals, he says, who they just have, they understand it. They get it and they challenge it. And they don't care about what it costs them to challenge it. There's a hunger and a desire to succeed and develop and progress as people. And so what's happening now by the looks of it is that this kind of collectivist thing, the response we're seeing right now is this multi-racial, multi-generational, collectivist response.

56:27 So people are saying, you know what? I don't care what it costs me. I don't care if you're going to say that I shouldn't be out here because of COVID. I don't care if it we like, we're tired of having to play, like Reverend Ashley said, Tony said before that we started about Lenny Henry and Frank Bruno. We don't want to have to be the clown in the room anymore. You don't want to have to be playing any games anymore. Like just accept me for who I am. I am who I am. Understand my story. Respect my story. I respect you. You respect me. And see past my skin colour. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, um,

57:11 don't disrespect my skin colour, but see that inside me is a human being that deserves respect and honor. Just like you deserve respect and honor. You know, level playing field. Welcome back. Amazing. Thank you. If you're catching me right now, that means that you've just listened to about an hour of that expert hangout on waking up to racism. It opened my eyes hugely. And not just in isolation, right? But I really realized that there were some conversations, questions being asked there.

57:50 I was looking at things in a new way, things I hadn't asked before. And these are people I've known for 10, 12 years. And so what's that like to have friends that we don't ask questions of that we don't go the full mile with? And yeah, there's a second part. I will edit that up and it will follow on way quicker than the normal podcast schedule. So you can expect that in about 24 hours. It'll be part two of The Waking Up to Racism. I hope you've enjoyed it. Please like and share, subscribe to any of the channels. Being part of Team Super Dad is about community.

58:29 And in no way would I ever want this community to have any kind of choice or discrimination by skin colour. It wouldn't even, it just wouldn't occur to me. But yet it could be a concern of someone's coming in without even knowing anything about me. And again, as I said before, that's what we have to change. We need people to just go through life with the same opportunities and the same expectations, whatever their skin color. Thank you so much. My name's Jonnie Jensen. Team Super Dad out. This has been Chief. Team Super Dad. Find us at TeamSuperdad dot com.

59:39 Now