Live And Let Live Radio Carla Howell Lib.Party Exec Director Almost Got Rid Of MA State Income Tax [ BzLq6X GwE]

00:00 You are listening to the Logos Radio Network. Good evening and welcome to Live & Let Live on the Logos Radio Network. I'm Gary Johnson, you can hear this program every Sunday night at 9pm Eastern Time 8 Central 7 Mountain and 6 Pacific. Archives of this program are available at logosradionetwork.com

00:54 Well, tonight in our first hour we're going to be talking with Carla Howell. She is executive director of the Libertarian Party. But she's going to spend much of the time telling us about how she led a petition drive which put on the ballot in Massachusetts, a referendum question to repeal the state income tax and it came remarkably close to passing. She'll also talk to us about another effort to deal with the state sales tax in Massachusetts And she's going to tell us the truth about Mitt Romney because she actually ran against Mitt Romney and so she knows all about him. Carla Howell, welcome to Live & Let Live!

01:36 Thank you very much. Well, Carla I would like for you to begin by telling us a little bit about the politics of Massachusetts and in particular how it relates to the state income tax there what sort of state is Massachusetts politically? well as many people know it's it's a big government state of all the big government states in our country there are fifty of them uh... massachusetts ranks amongst the top five or so um... it's um... often um... referred to his democratic at the legislature is overwhelmingly debt democratic there is currently a democrat governor and all this statewide offices are held by democrats however they're really isn't

02:23 much different if any difference between uh... today uh... back in the eighties when michael dukakis was a governor and in the um... the governor administration's in-between these two periods which were held by republicans from nineteen ninety up until uh... mit romney ended his term um... in two thousand x the democrats and republicans in massachusetts vote big government they go for higher budget pay vote for higher taxes they oppose measures to shrink government and admit romney fit right neatly into that mold

03:03 Now, Carla I want to... even though we'll talk about the Libertarian Party and other things later in the hour. I want to spend a lot of time here talking about your effort to repeal the state income tax which came very close what was the vote on that? In 2002, the first time we ran in the income tax we got 45% of the vote. The polls had been saying that we would get between 27 and 37 percent of the vote so we shocked everyone and pleasantly surprised them. I can't say we were too surprised, but we were very pleased with the result of 45%. And what that really says about Massachusetts and probably you could make the same case about New York and California in Illinois in New Jersey.

03:55 you have centers in the state basically in the big cities boston our case and some other smaller cities as well university towns where you have overwhelming big government uh... political um... inclination but she go out into the suburbs are in the rural areas of massachusetts and it's really demographically much more the rest of like the rest of the country and that is they're pretty much ordinary uh... lower middle-income working people taxpayers who want government to be much smaller than it is one taxes to be lower and one government spending to come

04:32 down from where it is and their and they're quite willing to have fewer government services as part of that trade-off so massachusetts like many states in the next it's controlled by the power brokers the big government uh... democrats republicans but the people of massachusetts especially outside of the cities in the university towns are much like americans everywhere All right, now can you tell us a little bit about the income tax in Massachusetts? What kind of income tax do you have? I live in Texas. We don't even have an income tax but is it's the same as the federal income tax but at an extra percentage amount or is that a completely different form and how much of a tax income taxes they have in Massachusetts what kind of income taxes does Massachusetts have

05:22 that the chief of the flat five point three percent income tax um... lucky for us the constitution forbid that from being a graduated income tax otherwise i'm sure they would have hiked it for the upper-income levels all along long time ago but they've been constitutionally prohibited from doing that nonetheless the five point three percent which is uh... somewhat average income taxes you look around country is but one of their major taxes we have to pay uh... now six and a quarter percent sales tax they raised it from five point oh a few years ago they also have high property taxes especially in certain towns and fees everywhere you turn its if there's probably few states that can compete with massachusetts in terms of the fees that you pay professional fees getting on a ferry ride more boring about uh... renewing your gun license

06:16 all these things um... have very high fees are all over the place we also have some of it's not the highest corporate taxes in this in the country so if you add up all that she could taxes their own risk there hostile to private private sector and two small businesses uh... so that is is bent out taxa chief at the politicians they like to pretend it no longer taxation but it absolutely All right now Carla, you said it's a 5.3% flat rate does that mean that everybody even someone who has virtually no income just above zero pays the state income tax? Correct and the exemptions there is relatively few its pretty much attacks on your first dollar earned

07:05 All right, now you as you will explain to us. You led a petition drive to put this on the ballot Why did you think that this had a chance? I mean you described Massachusetts being two places The elite in the cities and ordinary people out in the country But what gave you an idea that would even have a chance at a place called Taxachusetts Well, we didn't know what was going to happen with it. It was an idea that was conceived by my partner Michael Cloud who was living in Massachusetts at the time.

07:41 he and i later formed the center for small government and have been involved in he's been involved in politics this country for forty years uh... also dubbed the master libertarian persuasion expert communications experts speechwriter and political strategist amongst other things andy he came up with the idea back in nineteen nine nine it would've been two thousand one of putting upon about a massachusetts and and i had first said can we do that and can we actually in the income tax would be like new hampshire our neighbor or texas for other there's nine states have no income tax

08:19 and he said why not and i thought for a few seconds except by not so because most ballot initiatives in that case it is lucky to be one of about uh... twenty two states that have a statewide ballot initiative process another twenty two states is only about ten or fifteen where it's viable meaning where the requirements aren't so difficult that you can actually get an initiative on the ballot massachusetts is one of those states We were lucky to live in a state where that was an option, though it's very difficult to do and expensive. And you have to work awfully hard to do it. It is possible to do it so we said let's try it.

09:02 that we need to do to change high government spending, high taxes in this country is we need to run campaigns whether it's individuals running for office or ballot initiatives that put out there proposals to shrink government just like Ron Paul proposed reducing the federal government government by one trillion dollars in the first year a very bold proposal relative to what people propose today but it's very necessary one uh... gary johnson running on the libertarian ticket um... has proposed something similar forty three percent cut in federal spending we need to put proposals out there and have them do at

09:39 as they do now what we have discovered with our forty five percent voted that when you propose something bold like that you'd be pretty much as well is when you proposed something very modest and a lot of people argue will have to be very modest in a smaller cut or or or no one'll do it if there'll be too radical or they'll claim something to this effect but in in reality the rate the radical that in politics today is the big government and democrats republicans who are spending through the roof very very recklessly and very very dangerously to simply bring about the budget into balance is normal and responsible and our any income tax

10:22 when we looked at the numbers in massachusetts was uh... would have only begun to remove the way into state government spending it would have been there would've been much more that you could have cut then the what what would have been back back in two thousand two nine billion dollars to adjust for that reduction in revenue from ending the income tax it with absolutely doable it was a first step towards small government to a constitutional government We put it out there, we got 45% of the vote. Another measure to reduce the income tax in 1990 by a very tiny amount got only 40% of the vote so what we demonstrated by getting 45% of the vote is that there's no reason to be shy or timid There's everything to gain in putting a nice bold and attractive proposal on the table because it does just as well In another state it might have passed

11:16 Right, well you said you got 45% of the vote to repeal the income tax in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts, that's to me just astonishing. I mean even though you didn't quite make it that is you know...I really was surprised because repealing the income tax is a very significant change We're going to come up on a break in less than two minutes here Carla but I want you to begin telling us what you had to go through just to get this on the ballot Okay Go right ahead and start right now. I'll catch up. All right in Massachusetts, the

11:56 signature requirement you have to do to signature drives not just one but two uh... the first one requires it varies every year which dependent on the vote of the prior governor's race in the in a prior election but it can about part of about sixty seven thousand signatures which may not sound like allot compared to some states where you need hundreds of thousands of signatures actually in massachusetts because the laws are so um... difficult um... you could say somewhat crazy you for example when you collect signatures in massachusetts you can't get any three marks on your petition sheet if somebody so much as put the tiny little pen mark on your sheet every figure on that signature on that page will be thrown out and not counted uh... do you have to put this signatures on separate sheets for every single one of the three hundred fifty-one cities and towns in massachusetts

12:50 very clumsy and awkward when you're trying to collect signatures, for instance at a shopping center or on the street. And people are walking by and they're all from different towns and you're ruffling through these papers so it's a very challenging process All right, Carla Howell will continue describing her experience in 2002 putting a ballot proposition on the ballot in Massachusetts to repeal the state income tax. It got 45% of the vote. She is executive director at The Libertarian Party if you'd like to know more about The Libertarian Party their website is www.lp.org This is Live and Let Live on the Logos Radio Network.

13:35 and i'm not going to have time for a couple of years executive director of the libertarian party website is www dot l dot go hard she has been with me center for small government and uh... she's been telling us about eight project in there is in massachusetts which uh... came close to repealing the estate income tax their website is w w w dot center small government dot com and carly was telling us how in two thousand into uh... their organization uh... petition to put on the ballot a proposal to repeal the state income tax and as we were going to a break she was telling us about how difficult it is

12:50 very clumsy and awkward when you're trying to collect signatures, for instance at a shopping center or on the street. And people are walking by and they're all from different towns and you're ruffling through these papers so it's a very challenging process All right, Carla Howell will continue describing her experience in 2002 putting a ballot proposition on the ballot in Massachusetts to repeal the state income tax. It got 45% of the vote. She is executive director at The Libertarian Party if you'd like to know more about The Libertarian Party their website is www.lp.org This is Live and Let Live on the Logos Radio Network.

13:35 and i'm not going to have time for a couple of years executive director of the libertarian party website is www dot l dot go hard she has been with me center for small government and uh... she's been telling us about eight project in there is in massachusetts which uh... came close to repealing the estate income tax their website is w w w dot center small government dot com and carly was telling us how in two thousand into uh... their organization uh... petition to put on the ballot a proposal to repeal the state income tax and as we were going to a break she was telling us about how difficult it is

14:20 to get a petition drive in Massachusetts. How, I guess the petition is easily challenged if you have just a stray mark on your petition and she said that there were...you actually had to conduct two petition drives. Carla what was this two-petition drive issue all about? uh... we don't know what how why they wrote that rule in the constitution a hundred years ago why they you know there's sort of a justification away at the post to work it you get your first batches signatures then it goes to the legislature for about and then they have four months to vote on it and if they don't voted into law you're done if they tell you have to go and get a second batch of signatures why we don't know and after you've achieved that then it goes on the ballot

15:09 Alright, so I take it that after you got your first signatures the Massachusetts legislature didn't say yeah let's repeal the income tax. How clever of you to figure that out! Nope in fact they ignored it and tried to pretend it didn't even exist This has happened before with ballot initiatives, and the courts have ruled that if they don't even take the vote it is considered a no-vote and it's allowed to proceed as if there had been no vote. And get the second batch of signatures to qualify for the ballot so that is what happened every time we ran about initiative in Massachusetts When you were petitioning Carla what sort of response did you get?

15:52 generally very positive and it's a very very interesting because a lot of people make the assertion that the end the people who would oppose an income tax for the wealthy well that not what you discover petitioning in massachusetts because in the wealthy town uh... those were the most difficult to petition and b working-class towns middle and lower income short of going into uh... you'd be very very poorest where you have housing projects and an apartment buildings um... and you know tough neighborhoods but everything in between the lower middle income tax

16:35 lower middle-income working families these were the ones who were most receptive to ending the income tax especially amongst the working poor they would practically grab the petition clipboard out of your hand and say how do i find more than once i mean it was there was genuine enthusiasm among these folks and we figured that reason is because They see government programs around them. They see the housing project up the street, they know people on welfare and food stamps and all kinds of government programs and they see that they don't work, that people abuse them

17:15 and they're out working for a living and getting relatively nothing retiring on relatively nothing struggling to get by and king government waste all around them a lot of these folks are very very supportive bending the income tax also because their they're really tight and they need every penny they can get back in our family budget so they it was very easy to petition in east town in the wealthy towns where so many people today who have money have their money as a function of big government either there unions getting cushy deals and cushy pensions or they're government contractors you know making double what they would make it for the same contract in the private sector uh... many from accumulate accumulating a lot of wealth uh... some of them could be government employees university employees were there

18:07 their employees at the state making healthy six-figure incomes with all kind of benefits these towns were more relatively cool towards that about signing this petition because they're livelihood was coming in many cases from government even though they would benefit from no income tax they would be in their view uh... that pay much higher price and and perhaps a lot of their job altogether the wealthy communities did not respond nearly as well to our offers to sign a petition to end the income tax All right, Carla. So you got enough signatures I take it and you got it on the ballot is in so you now begin your campaign? Is that right? Correct And so how did the press treat your ballot initiative? Well, the first time we did it very, very poorly. We weren't taken seriously. The opposition spent no money they were

19:08 they were polling and and the newspapers are pulling and there was a lot of their work some publicity but no one expected us to even come close uh... and so they i think they didn't want people could be aware of it i think they very deliberately blacked out wouldn't cover our campaign we pleaded with the boston globe pleaded with the um... abc mbc cbs news affiliates pbf Boston Herald, you know we got little blips here and there. And closer to the election we got a little more but they did what they could to black us out effectively so many people were not even aware that it was on the ballot. They discovered it when they grabbed their ballot and saw this question saying do you want to end income tax? A lot of them said yeah!

18:07 their employees at the state making healthy six-figure incomes with all kind of benefits these towns were more relatively cool towards that about signing this petition because they're livelihood was coming in many cases from government even though they would benefit from no income tax they would be in their view uh... that pay much higher price and and perhaps a lot of their job altogether the wealthy communities did not respond nearly as well to our offers to sign a petition to end the income tax All right, Carla. So you got enough signatures I take it and you got it on the ballot is in so you now begin your campaign? Is that right? Correct And so how did the press treat your ballot initiative? Well, the first time we did it very, very poorly. We weren't taken seriously. The opposition spent no money they were

19:08 they were polling and and the newspapers are pulling and there was a lot of their work some publicity but no one expected us to even come close uh... and so they i think they didn't want people could be aware of it i think they very deliberately blacked out wouldn't cover our campaign we pleaded with the boston globe pleaded with the um... abc mbc cbs news affiliates pbf Boston Herald, you know we got little blips here and there. And closer to the election we got a little more but they did what they could to black us out effectively so many people were not even aware that it was on the ballot. They discovered it when they grabbed their ballot and saw this question saying do you want to end income tax? A lot of them said yeah!

19:56 so we did quite well in spite of that. Now, the subsequent two elections, the second attempt to end the income tax and 2010 effort to roll back sales taxes, teachers unions and other powers-that be profiteers of big government realized they couldn't just sit back and hope 45% was way too close. So then they started rolling out millions of dollars in t.v ads and other advertisements to drive down our numbers and keep us down we actually pulled above fifty percent in both of those campaigns especially in the two thousand ten campaign but we were not a well-funded campaign we we you know where

20:38 struggling to get by, mouth-to-mouth kind of campaign. Our opponents had millions of dollars at their disposal and they ran a total of $12 million in ads between those two campaigns to keep us from winning. Now our vote total still went up a little bit each time but stayed below 50%. 50% we did not win any of the three ballot initiatives, but we cost them 12 million dollars They had to spend all that money just to keep being the taxes from going down and We got our message out in a big way big way and really established the viability of bold tax cuts even in a state like massachusetts which sends a message to every other state that if this can be done in massachusetts and you've got about initiative in your statement look into it because this is one of the most potent tools but those of us who love freedom have at our disposal and it's something we need to take much more advantage of

21:37 Yes, now as you were telling us we were talking about the 2002 vote and then you had to repeal the state income tax. In 2008 you had a vote and was that essentially the same question in 2002? Essentially the same, yes. And then in 2010 you had a proposal to roll back the state sales tax from whatever the percentage it was to a lower percentage is that right? Correct from six and a quarter percent to three percent we were cutting it in half plus a slight bit more than that

22:16 Okay, now as you said in 2002 you were blacked out by the media which was the bad news but also the opposition wasn't really fighting against you which was kind of a good news. In 2008, the opposition threw everything they could against you. And the interesting thing to me that you said Carla is that the leader of the opposition was The Teachers Union but why was The Teacher's Union so interested in this? Well, they are some of the major recipients of state and local government pork and large chefs. They have huge pensions especially the older teachers, the ones that are approaching retirement recently retired they are getting in many cases in fact typically 80%

23:13 appear their highest salary in the last three years of employment uh... that that pension automatically increases um... it's what's called a defined benefit so unlike your irate that may be worth half its value if there is a market crash they are benefits are predefined have nothing to do with the market if the market goes down in their pension funds can cover it they take a ready your tax dollars so it's a guaranteed amount of attention generous health care benefits all kinds of things that protecting by fighting Alright, we are talking with Carla Howell. She is the Executive Director of the Libertarian Party and she's telling us about campaigns especially the one in 2002 to repeal the state income tax in Massachusetts a campaign that almost succeeded

24:04 You are listening to Live and Let Live on the Logos Radio Network. I'm Gary Johnson, we're talking with Carla Howell she is Executive Director of The Libertarian Party their website is www.lp.org She's telling us about her activism with the Center for Small Government Their website is www.centerforsmallgovernment.com and she's telling us about petition drives that they did in Massachusetts, in particular drives in 2002 and 2008 to repeal the state income tax as well as a petition drive in 2010 to cut the state sales tax by more than half

24:55 and she was telling us about how in 2002 the press basically refused to cover their ballot initiative, and they actually came very close to winning. They got 45% of the vote which apparently surprised everybody so when they tried it again in 2008 uh... the opposition did not uh... roll over and uh... they spent literally literally millions of dollars alike on television commercials to fight back against his ballot proposal to repeal income tax in texas

25:33 And Carla was explaining to us that the teachers union was a major force in putting up money for these commercials. Carla, where did the money for these commercials come from? The Massachusetts Teachers Association was the primary opponent and they have a relationship with the teachers union in Washington, D.C., there's the American Federation of Teachers and I'm sorry, i'm sorry flipping my mind with the federal version of national education association. NEA, right? National Education Association those two federal groups put in millions of dollars and did the state union organizations a relatively small portion at the total funding of the opposition to ending income tax rolling back the sales tax came from some other big government profiteers in massachusetts

26:32 insurance company some construction companies that got printings projects with the big dig construction project in downtown boston uh... but it was overwhelmingly funded by the teachers union now what's uh... what was their argument carla when did they were saying yet and then i argument that they use is what we call this guy is falling uh... they basically threatened to uh... say they and try to claim that it is absolutely unavoidable that if we cut this tax that we will have to cut police and firefighters your neighborhoods will be unsafe your house could burn down will have to cut teachers in the school and your kid won't get a good education or we won't be able to repair of the road

27:23 and and uh... keep it accurate for that they basically use care tactics rather than talk about the way in state government of which there are two billion dollars date try to effectively threatened voters into and condom into believing that the absolute only place they can cut in areas that people carry them most about their prior to the issue of spending cuts is deliberately very very bad reckless and unfair a lot of voters get wife to the company they've realized that it's a blackmail threat but there still afraid of losing those services and so does work at the tactic that works if you can try to true it if used in every state in the country uh... it's the primary argument used against those who tried to cut government spending any serious way and often the people who cleavage suggest cutting it in and on serious way basically

28:24 use the same arguments, threaten people claim the sky will fall if they don't keep getting the existing tax revenue that's coming in the door. Now the first time you get 45 percent what happened in 2008? We got a lower percentage but higher vote total. 2008 was the presidential year and it was also the year Obama was elected, it was a record-breaking turnout and so what happened in that year was the Obama campaign brought out a lot of Democrats about half million more Democrat big government Democrat voters than normal almost all of whom

29:03 voted against this income tax repeal. So, this caused our vote total to go down we also had the advertising running for the first time and there was plenty of it seven million dollars uh... and we did not have a net budget to respond to that so are both total percentage went down but our vote total actually went up by a bit and broke nine hundred thousand in that year alright now Carla What was your counter argument when they, you sort of stated it here but when the opposition said all the sky is going to fall what did you say?

29:44 well we pointed out that this was a my manipulation in the scare tactic and we would turn the conversation to government waste we talked about both specific programs and we had to be pointed to our website uh... the last one being rolled back taxes dot com and said you know click on the link about government waste and you'll see along long list of areas where they can cut government in addition they can simply cut waste throughout government waste is marketed marble throughout government spending virtually every government agency department uh... bureaucracy has

30:22 tons and tons of waste it's safe to say i will assert that you could cut any government budget in this country state local or federal immediately by ten percent just by removing the obvious way you could cut much more often more than fifty percent of total spending but really getting in there removing all the programs that don't work that artwork for money in many cases that actually do more harm than good there's plenty of places to cut and the opposition likes pretending to not exist and really threatened to cut all the areas that they have figured out voters care the most about

31:02 All right, so Carla you tried to repeal the state income tax in Massachusetts. In 2002 and 2008 you tried to cut back the state sales tax in 2010 what lessons did you learn from this? And what lessons do you have for people in other states Well, the biggest lesson as I mentioned earlier is don't be shy. Don't...be bold. Propose dramatic cuts in government for a number of reasons. For one because just to get people's attention and it's hard if you're cutting government. I'm now the executive director for Libertarian Party and libertarians want

31:45 want much less government as most americans do uh... but they're often you shut out or discredited or treated very poorly by that the press even when they make a ballot are perfectly legitimate candidate now one that is wrong and should be corrected but we can't necessarily do that ourselves so one of the ways that we can break through it i offering bold proposal such as ending income tax it whether you're running for state office federal office he could propose repealing the federal income tax cutting spending dramatically by over a trillion dollars in the case of this federal government government can't governments can be cut by billions if not tens of billions of dollars easily local governments can be cut by millions and some cases billion and we should run on these things

32:35 and not be shy about it and ask them to apologize for why they have been abusing taxpayers wasting jobs of money running up our debt risking hyperinflation and doing great harm to this country uh... so the trick is get out there and run whether it's a ballot initiative or the libertarian candidate uh... and come out swinging for dramatically shrinking government and showing the voters why their lives will be so much better in the case of rolling back the sales tax it would have created thirty thousand new jobs it would have put about seven eight hundred dollars back into family budget at the average

33:16 working taxpayer in the state it would have uh... brought in more retail business from the surrounding states many of which are flocking to new hampshire where they had not only no income tax but no sales tax so we're constantly losing business to our neighbor neighboring state of new hampshire will be able to keep much more apart business um... in massachusetts we would also interpret track foreigners who would come to shop in massachusetts more there is everything to be gained by the vast majority of people in massachusetts took with only the profiteers who are unfairly profiting from tax dollars who would have had to find new jobs everybody else would've been doing much much better and and that's what we gotta do. We gotta keep putting out proposals, candidates, ballot initiatives

34:03 for shrinking government and the Libertarian Party is the party that does that the most and best. So I strongly recommend come to LP.org, check it out! And we will have more candidates as the year goes on. We have a presidential nominating convention first weekend in May in Las Vegas We'll have a number of candidates competing for the nomination. The delegates there will select that nominee, and then we will be running that presidential candidate through November. They will be in the general election. They will be running against Obama and whoever the Republican may be. And it's going to be a very exciting year, and this is how we do it. We run campaigns

34:43 All right, so that's it folks be bold and get involved. We are talking with Carla Howell She said she's the executive director of the Libertarian Party their website is www.lp.org And she's been telling us about the Center for Small Government Their website is www.centerforsmallgovernment.com and Carla I we're coming up on a break here but understand you know a little bit about Mitt Romney I do. I ran against him for governor in 2002, the same year we ran our first ending income tax ballot initiative which of course he opposed vehemently. He opposed... All right. Well Carla, I will let you tell us more about that after this break. You're listening to Live and Let Live on the Logos Radio Network.

35:36 We now return to Live and Let Live on the Logos Radio Network. I'm Gary Johnson, we are talking with Carla Howell, Executive Director of The Libertarian Party. Their website is www.lp.org And as Carla just told us before the break She knows a little bit about Mitt Romney, who is now running for president because she ran for governor of Massachusetts against him in 2002. So Carla you I take it was the Libertarian Party candidate and Mitt Romney was the Republican candidate and i believe he served just one term Is that right? That's right! So that was the one and only time he ran for governor so

36:21 What do you, what can you tell us about Mitt Romney? Mitt Romney is big government. Big government is Mitt Romney. He's big government in every way he hikes taxes, he hikes government spending and he introduced the granddaddy of big-government programs Romneycare effectively that same thing as a obama care and hillary care at dukakis care which was that which was uh... enacted under governor dukakis remember the guy with it tank in the helmet who ran against george bush for president nineteen eighty eight that week our governor of the time an extreme left

37:00 wing big government democrat romney hillary care obama care to cut the scare their all effectively the same thing they mandate individuals and small businesses to put to purchase health insurance whether they can afford it or not or face a tax penalty that's what these programs are that's what mit romney championed he didn't just sign into law with the democrats twisting his arms he proposed it lobbied for it champion did They locked arm-in-arm with Ted Kennedy and the Democrat legislature. It sailed through, and that was his signature legislation.

37:39 effectively the same thing as obama care that's what this guy foisted on at the taxpayers and voters of massachusetts with no warning he did not run on it did not bring a three the word of it during his campaign he admitted in fact that he got this bright idea right after he was inaugurated uh... this man is possibly the most dangerous politician in America. The primary reason is not only is he dangerously big government, but he pretends not to be. He's running on the Republican ticket pretending not passed and abide from the majority of Republicans as he did in Massachusetts who did not do peep to fight this guy, protest him or for all I know not a single one of them even pulled him aside and said excuse me Mr. Romney have you lost your mind?

37:00 wing big government democrat romney hillary care obama care to cut the scare their all effectively the same thing they mandate individuals and small businesses to put to purchase health insurance whether they can afford it or not or face a tax penalty that's what these programs are that's what mit romney championed he didn't just sign into law with the democrats twisting his arms he proposed it lobbied for it champion did They locked arm-in-arm with Ted Kennedy and the Democrat legislature. It sailed through, and that was his signature legislation.

37:39 effectively the same thing as obama care that's what this guy foisted on at the taxpayers and voters of massachusetts with no warning he did not run on it did not bring a three the word of it during his campaign he admitted in fact that he got this bright idea right after he was inaugurated uh... this man is possibly the most dangerous politician in America. The primary reason is not only is he dangerously big government, but he pretends not to be. He's running on the Republican ticket pretending not passed and abide from the majority of Republicans as he did in Massachusetts who did not do peep to fight this guy, protest him or for all I know not a single one of them even pulled him aside and said excuse me Mr. Romney have you lost your mind?

38:32 they've let him just uh... run with this thing no resistance he has helped to create a new standard and to move the republican party even further into that solid big government camp now becoming more and more accepting of the idea of universal health care socialized medicine admit romney paid played a major role in that in addition to giving cover to president obama to pass his legislation because what can the democrats say when they're leading candidate for this year's nomination so far is the person who enacted exactly what opa my is most uh... it has brought

39:12 the most disapproval of obama monks republicans and independent critics is extreme dangerous reckless expansion of big government signature piece being oklahoma care just like mit romney All right, now you know if you listen to Mitt Romney today Carla he says he's going to give waivers to all the states and he is going to repeal Obamacare. And he is really against it and he says that its different from Romney care they are not the same your telling us that he championed this? Its no just something that the Democratic legislature was pushing through when he reluctantly signed it

39:51 It is called Romneycare because it was his baby from the beginning. It is effectively the same thing as Obamacare, any claim to the contrary at a minimum deceptive if not an outright lie. It is the same thing as Obamacare he's the father of the individual mandate for medical insurance in this country All right, now you said a moment ago Carla that he raised taxes. How much did he raise taxes? What kind of taxes did he raise? Well, as Milton Friedman used to say the late great Milton Friedman to know the true level of taxation look at government spending because one way or another they're going to get that out of you especially very directly at the state level because they can't print money so you're going to pay for it in either more debt on which you pay interest and principal or your gonna pay for it with taxes being raised here and there.

40:49 new taxes in the case of Mitt Romney he imposed scores of new taxes and increased taxes. He took a so-called no new taxes pledge when he ran for governor it was a lie, it was a deception um...he liked to pretend that raising your gun license fee by three times is not a tax increase its a fee increase and that doesn't count He passed legislation to enable the local cities and towns to raise business property tax. He closed loopholes so that the Internet sales tax would apply to more people.

41:26 These are just a few of the very, of the scores dozens of taxes that he hiked his four years in governor. He increased spending overall five billion dollars That's five billion more every year that taxpayers in Massachusetts are now forced to pay because of Mitt Romney You said he signed a no new taxes pledge, but he raised taxes anyway. How did he... you said he just said well these aren't taxes they're fees? Is that the sum of his argument? Well let me first be clear if I if I said signed and misspoke He refused to actually sign that pledge. He says he's man of his word. He doesn't need to sign a piece of paper. He is just not going to raise taxes

42:12 but of course the first thing he did what he was inaugurated which proposed a billion dollars in spending increases his first year piloted taxes or expanded taxes makeup for that for the to raise the needed revenue for that increase he could be each of the four she hears that he was governor at the end he left us with five billion dollars more plot this huge liability from the care impose all kinds of fine and requirements to buy expensive unnecessary insurance on the private sector it also imposed an income tax penalty which is a increase in the income tax and he pretends that it's not uh... so you know this man raised taxes uh... and just about every way he could

43:01 Beyond the Romney care and the taxes issue, what were some other things that he was involved with? You mentioned he had something about a gun fee. How is he on personal liberty? terrible he uh... the uh... it course you know how to go out get photo ops well he's hunting with somebody to try to convinced the gun community that is friendly to cut owners but he was very anti-gun there was a bill that had been passed in the house too

43:37 undo some of the very onerous anti-gun laws in Massachusetts and he firmly, flatly opposed it. I supported it when I ran for governor as a libertarian he and the democrat were equally in vehement opposition to that gun freedom bill. Alright Carla so uh... He didn't run for reelection was there reason for that? Well, besides his obvious long-standing ambition to be president it's very possible he would not have been reelected. His lieutenant governor Carrie Healey ran for governor after he left in 2008 and she lost decisively to the Democrat who is now the

44:23 the governor and re-elected incumbent. So it's not clear that he would have been able to maintain a seat, it is not clear how much the conservatives in this state, states' independents, libertarians, fiscally conservative republicans many of whom strongly dislike mandated medical insurance uh... may have if not opposed him set up a race giving me and um... causing him to lose enough percentage point in the vote that he may not have been able to hold on to his seat it in a act contest for re-election so it was sort of a perfect move for him did get out of the state avoid having to run again and run as president two thousand eight building torches current two thousand twelve campaigned for president

45:11 All right, Carla. We got a couple minutes left here what lessons do people who see Mitt Romney running for president now? Can you teach them about your firsthand knowledge about him in Massachusetts? Don't believe a word the man says if it has anything to do with pretending to be for freedom. He talks about being, you know Mr., want-to create jobs well his policies were the direct opposite he created some government jobs but for every one government job you create you throw two private sector people out of work on average

45:49 and he did a whole lot of that in massachusetts destroying small businesses they were literally businesses having to close or move out of the state because his insurance mandates because high taxes and spending that he sustained increased uh... he's hostile to small businesses he has imposed higher business property taxes uh... he may increase the sales tax indirectly uh... he increased dozens of fees as people who underwrite mortgages independent businessmen and women who now pay thousands of dollars in professional fees because of

46:24 Mitt Romney when he was governor of Massachusetts. So, you know this man is the exact opposite of what the economy needs to get it back on its feet we need somebody who not only talks the rhetoric of getting the government off your back but who actually does that rather than putting the government more on your back which is exactly what is Mitt Romney's track record All right, Carla Howie I have less than a minute left. Again if people go to www.lp.org they can learn more about the Libertarian Party in about 30 seconds tell us why should people learn about the Libertarian Party and get involved with it?