1999 Pat Robertson Interview With Mike McNulty On His Film ＂Waco： A New Revelation＂ [clxIrH40NTM]

00:00 Ladies and gentlemen, whatever we may have thought of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians — and I certainly don't agree with any of their theology — but nevertheless in a free society people have a right to express differing points of view and different lifestyles. And if we bring down the FBI, the Delta Force and the power of government and burn out people we disagree with or if we assassinate them as we did Randy Weaver's wife on Ruby Ridge then we are in danger of losing our freedoms. That is why this a very important matter and somebody should pay the price

00:35 But this kind of thing, this was premeditated murder of innocent women and children by government forces in this particular thing. At least that seems to be the charges being levied. Of course they're saying really the Davidians set themselves on fire so it was mass suicide but from what we're beginning to see there wasn't as much suicide as it a clear attempt by the government to rid our nation of this troublesome group. And that, to me is very dangerous precedent." Now there's nothing here but wrecked ruin and concrete foundations But six years ago this was the site one of the bloodiest assaults perhaps THE bloodiest assault ever by American law enforcement

01:16 More than 80 branch Davidians, men women 24 children died as shots rang out and fire consumed the structures which stood here. A soon to be released documentary Waco a new revelation from MGA films accuses the feds of firing flammable pyrotechnic rounds at the Davidian's something the FBI denied until last couple weeks The film even accuses agents have shooting at the Davidians As the tank moves forward two man have dropped out of the escape hatch They roll over, and as they roll over they open up with automatic gunfire. Clive Doyle was among the very few survivors that violent 51st day of the Waco siege and he still lives on Mount Carmel site He's probably alive today because he just happened to be next to a hole punched into a wall by an armored vehicle As fire ate up the building around him I just jumped out and dived in the general direction where I thought the hole was And looked at my shell and the holes were just massive flames and no one is coming out

02:11 Though Clive escaped, his 18-year old daughter didn't. Is this your daughter's tree right here? That's her yeah As it is for each of the Davidian victims there's a tree growing for Sherry now at Mount Carmel She's out of the suffering The suffering ended for he on day 51 Doyle definitely blames the government for the disaster But Clint Van Zandt, the FBI negotiating coordinator at Waco is certain that Davidians did themselves in I believe in my heart of hearts that they chose to set their building on fire And I think that the individuals that were shot, were shot either by their own hand or by the hand of an associate inside. The Christian Van Zant believes the Davidians were misguided cultists led by a dangerously deluded David Koresh He recalls a talk with Koresh. He said brother Clint who do you think i am?

02:55 And I said, David who do you think you are? He said, I'm the Christ. Van Zant would eavesdrop on conversations inside the Davidians complex through listening devices planted all around it On that last day, over here with the Davidians talking amongst themselves Did David say spread to fuel? Shall we spread to fuel? Shall we light the fire? that level of conversation and immediately thereafter the FBI plane flying overhead with the infrared camera picks up three individual heat sources where I believe in my heart the Davidians set the fire after discussing it amongst themselves. Doyle insists he heard no such conversations But he does say the Davidians had a large number of kerosene cans collected in a central location to light their lamps. On April 19th, they were worried one of the tanks ramming the building might smash into these cans We figured it would end up running over those and rupturing them And somebody said we better get fuel The question is can we believe the government's assurances that it fired no flammable canisters into the main structure where Sherry Doyle died? The FBI long insisted it used no flammable pirate techniques Now its had to admit it did

03:58 FBI agents said they had no video or audio tapes concerning those pyrotechnics. Now that's been disproved! The Justice Department says it knew nothing of these flammable canisters, now it turns out the FBI told justice about those pyrotechnics back in 1993 The FBI insists it never fired one bullet at the Davidians. Now, the Texas Rangers are revealing they have dozens of spent cartridges from a house FBI snipers used during the siege. The government's long denied that US military illegally took part in the final fight but a former CIA agent is telling congressional investigators Delta troops revealed to him that 10 of them attacked the Davidians that day A military source says he was told Delta was ordered to quote take down the branched Davidians

04:38 Confidence in the Justice Department is so shaken by all of these revelations, Senators from Republican Trent Lott to Democrat Robert Torricelli are calling for Janet Reno to resign. Asa Hutchison is one of the congressmen likely to investigate the possibility of a massive cover-up. For six years we've had wrong information coming out, information that should have been available and was available but wasn't disclosed A tree's been planted for each person that died here April 19th, 1993. Federal agents have insisted ever since then the truth is they're not to blame for any of those deaths but with long hidden facts just coming out now new doubts have been cast on just what the truth is Paul Strand reporting from Mount Carmel near Waco Texas

05:19 Pat, this is going to erode confidence in the federal government even further. Well I think if there's any confidence left from the Justice Department, I don't know where it is and I've joined that chorus that says Janet Reno should step down she should have resigned some time ago she has steadfastly refused to do her job and they're just massive cover-ups this is only one of many that we have seen with the Justice Department and its a shame that the highest law enforcement agency in the United States Government has been so tarnished by this record Well, joining us now by satellite is Michael McNulty. He's the investigative researcher for the soon-to-be released documentary Waco A New Revelation

05:58 His previous documentary, Waco Rules of Engagement was nominated for an Academy Award. Mr. McNulty comes to us from Fort Collins Colorado and Mark before we start off I understand that your mother is in surgery it needs prayer so we would ask our people to pray for her as well at this time. We would appreciate it Pat very much thank you You have a clip, or we have a clip from your documentary that says people firing into the Branch Davidian compound. Are you sure that the shapes there are actually human beings firing rifles? Well, Pat we've looked at this very carefully. The whole team at MGA Films and that would include people like Dr Edward Allard and a number of other FLIR experts And the evidence is very compelling that the shapes that were seeing there are indeed human beings You have to remember the vehicle they're coming out was a desert storm vehicle that had been air conditioned And the FLIR tape itself measures temperatures

06:58 And the individuals coming out of that vehicle came out of an air-conditioned environment into a much warmer environment. So in the concept of FLIR, they would show up as dark oblong objects now in FLIR you're not going to be able to see details of faces and noses and the like but you will see the general shapes and You do in this footage now as those bodies warm up and gain the temperature of the surrounding soil. An amazing thing happens, they disappear because as far as thermal imaging equipment is concerned they are at the same temperature which is what it's measuring as the soil around them in the rubble and debris however when their guns fire the muzzle flashes are very distinctive as you can see in that footage And those muzzle flashes repeat cyclically

07:49 as an automatic weapon would fire, as a matter of fact. They fire or they appear on the image at the same rate as does the rate of gunfire of about 600 rounds per minute. Let me ask you about this canister I understand there was a 40 millimeter canister that was fired into that building where did it go? I should say into the building It was fired but where did it go and what was the effect of it Well, actually there were several. The first two that we're aware of are US military CS gas rounds and they're pyrotechnic in nature Now these two rounds we have never claimed and don't claim now that they were involved in the fire setting They in fact landed on the roof of a structure about 30 yards away from the main compound or the main structure

08:43 and this roof was made of plywood covered in tar. The fact is that my colleagues and I at MGA Films have looked at this, we've come to the conclusion that this is sort of a red herring being offered by the government remains that it is significant in as much as these two projectiles, their XM-651E ones which is a classification of CS pyrotechnic ground used by the military were indeed fired. There's videotape of them being fired and the effects of them being fired giving off a cloud of white smoke is clearly visible on the video tape this is also included in the film Waco A New Revelation

09:21 I think the key here is all the significance that is attached to those two projectiles, is the fact that it verifies that the government has lied for six years about the existence of the use of pyrotechnic rounds. Now there are some other rounds that were used we're in the process of conducting an examination of these rounds Dr. Frederick Whitehurst leads our investigative team and he is a very well-known scientist in the areas of explosive residue and residues that would be associated with these projectiles so we can determine by back engineering exactly what the function of these projectiles were. Now, these two projectiles were also found in the evidence locker by myself on my colleagues in our last visit actually I'm sorry our first visit to the Austin Evidence Locker

10:12 found these projectiles and took residue samples under the supervision of the Texas Rangers. And those samples, again are being tested. So we're not quite prepared to tell you exactly what they were There are indications in the evidence and some compelling evidence I might add that indicates that these projectiles passed through the building They had a submunition inside of these projectiles The projectiles themselves were designed to penetrate doors walls and windows and uh...they appeared to have done just that and expelled their submunitions on the interior of the building One last question. It is against the law of the United States for military forces to be involved in a situation like this without certain safeguards being carried out We understand that there's some FBI surveillance footage that indicates that Delta Force Troops were actually shooting they shot a number of rounds into the end of the compound did you explain on that?

11:10 Well, sir the fact is that there's footage that was taken by the Department of Public Safety as well as the FBI. And some still photos and a number of documents that will appear in our new film that basically confirm, have been confirmed by virtue of eyewitnesses who have looked at this material and confirmed that indeed these individuals that are seen in this footage are members of the vaunted Delta Force. Now when you and I raise that name... ...the government rolls its eyes and said well there's no such thing as Delta Force Well in effect they're true That's a popularized fictional name sort of a moniker that has been picked up in Hollywood so to speak In films etc

11:51 The proper name for this organization is the Combat Applications Group of Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And indeed we have gotten confirmations from multiple sources several of which appear in the film, the new film Waco A New Revelation as confirming that indeed these individuals are members of Delta Force they're fully armed and in the infrared video We suspect that indeed and have been told that the individuals firing the weapons in the infrared video are a mixed group of hostage rescue team members and Delta Force. Time is unfortunately running out, but who is in position in United States government to order a Delta force Team into operation where would that order have to come from? Well sir I'm afraid we have another one of those Lewinsky types of mysteries here

12:43 The fact is the President of the United States is the only authority who can issue an order to Delta Force, uh...to take action as they appear to have at Waco. Uh...exactly what's going on here we're not sure yet because of course Mr Clinton has denied that he signed a waiver for the presence of these forces but there are indications some which are shown in the new film that in fact they did have a waiver and they were there with presidential authority Michael McNulty, thank you very much for the work you're doing. We appreciate so much of being with us Thank You sir for the opportunity ladies and gentlemen

13:20 The problem we've got here is one more example of this particular administration scoffing at the law, lying to the American people covering up and then some terrible thing takes place. This is not the province of crazies Michael McNulty has already gotten an Oscar for one of his films it's a very careful documentary but this is one of many evidence pieces of evidence that is coming to light on this tragic situation. You say, well why couldn't we do this? Well ladies and gentlemen whatever we may have thought of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians —and I certainly don't agree with any of their theology—but nevertheless in a free society people have a right to express differing points of view and different lifestyles

14:04 And if we bring down the FBI, the Delta Force and the power of government and burn out people we disagree with or if we assassinate them as we did Randy Weaver's wife on Ruby Ridge then we are in danger of losing our freedoms. That is why this a very important matter and somebody should pay the price for this kind of thing. This was premeditated murder of innocent women and children by government forces in this particular thing, or at least that seems to be the charges being levied." Of course they're saying really the Davidians set themselves on fire so it was mass suicide but from what we're beginning to see there wasn't as much suicide as it

14:48 uh... clear attempt by the government to read our nation of this troublesome group troublesome group and that to me is very dangerous precedent