Following Your Inner Purpose with Film Producer Nic Askew

00:00 In this episode of the Team Superdad podcast, I talk with accidental business leader, Amazon Adventurer and film producing soul biographer Nick Askew, who is also a dad. Role theme. Welcome to Team Super Dad. Real dads creating their best lives ever. More time, more money, more fun. You are not alone. You're on Team Super Dad. Hello and welcome to the Team Super Dad podcast. My name's Johnny. Welcome. If you're here for the first time, of course, welcome. And if you come back, then I must be doing something right because you're here again. We are talking everything to do with being a great dad, you know, busy dads.

00:44 We are working hard. We are trying to make the most of our family time. We're trying to make money, keep fit, the whole shebang. And yeah, it's tricky. So in Team Superdad, we're all about the support and community to make those things happen. Whether it's from me, whether it's from other dads in the group, whether it's from expert coaches and specialists that we have in on all our events, apart the F5 and the Hero Academy, then welcome. I'd love to get you more involved. But today it's about the podcast. And we are talking to a really cool bloke, a guy called Nick Askew. And you'll hear more about him as we get into the conversation. But I've known Nick a long time. And Nick, I'll tell you about this because he doesn't do a very good job of it at the beginning of the podcast.

01:26 He's an amazing film producer. He has literally produced his soul biographies, these amazing, like, they really, they just stop you in your tracks. They're black and white. It's one person. And they're just talking. And it sounds like not really much. How much fun could that be, right? But it is quite striking in the extreme. And Nick has been privileged enough, I'd say, to have done this all around the world now. But it started with just him and a camera and a vision. And what I will say as well is it's about his wife and about his family and about the team they've created there, the unity they've created there.

02:16 And as I'm sure you'll hear from Nick's conversation, just how much he trusted his heart and his instinct, where other people have thoughts and are perhaps stopped by them or, oh, as if that could happen, or as if that makes sense. Nick over and over again has gone for it. And it's a really powerful example of what's possible by following perhaps that inner voice or perhaps that destiny. Depending on your persuasion, it could be following God's word, whoever your God is to you. Nick's just been out there and done it. And there are times in this conversation, it's a really chilled out conversation, okay?

02:52 So if you're operating heavy machinery or driving late at night, this might not be the one because Nick is just, he's just a great guy to listen to. Some of it is really thought-provoking and will actually expand your mind, the doors of perception, like how we think about things. There is elements to this where you really have to check in on yourself and consider how much you've allowed yourself to think or to go after opportunities. It is stunning, quite frankly. And Nick is exactly the kind of people that I love to be around.

03:30 I've known him a number of years as you'll hear. And I've shared this before, but just staying in touch with people, you don't have to speak to them every day. You don't have to speak to them every week. You don't have to even speak to them every six months, but like once a year, just make an effort to reach out and check in with people, people who you were friends with, people who struck a chord with you, people you had a laugh with, people who you loved. Like really, we only live on this earth once. And if you're a good person, if there's people in this world who've touched you in, you know, touched your heart, expanded your mind, who you've had great times with, then don't just let them drift away into the darkness of it all.

04:13 Keep in touch and then you could have great conversations like this one with Nick. If you're interested in everything we do here at Team Superdad, well, come on over to teamsuperdad.com or visit the group over on Facebook. That's facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash team superdad. I won't tell you anything more about that this week. Suffice to say, it is awesome. If you're a dad and you want some unity, some men, like-minded men to strive forward in life, to hold you to account and go on adventures with, then come on over and be part of Team Superdad. But until then, enjoy this interview with Nick. I'll see you on the other side. I hope you enjoy it.

04:53 Good evening, Nick. Lovely to have you here on the Team Super Dad podcast. Yeah, good late afternoon. Oh, yeah. I'm a Londoner, but I live in the States. Yes. So I'm here burning the midnight oil. The kids are livid that I haven't gone to bed at the same time as them. But I'm like, guys, you're getting quite old now. Like, we may end up going to bed at different times, which in reality probably means that they'll end up going to bed after me in not too long. Our kids go to bed after us. Like all the time now, and they're of that age. They're not that old, but we just, I think we probably go to bed early.

05:36 In fact, this house at the moment, I'm not in the studio. Since COVID, I've kind of tend to be in the house. So I'm in the attic and the house is full of kids. Like we have one, we've set up a home school. Yeah. So we've got a teacher and we've got two teachers actually who come in and they, the school is in our carport. So we've got four 11-year-old boys. So three from other families. Yeah, yeah. And they're all podding together and they're outdoors. We've got this carport, which is like a garage without the ends. So it's kind of, you know, there's a breeze going through. And we live by a creek and they run down to the creek in between any bit of work and they bounce on a trampoline.

06:16 Then they come back and they learn art and they play guitars and harmonicas and they run around and the science stuff as well. So it's pretty cool. Then we have one who's going to school half the time and she at the moment is doing ballet on the first floor on the ground floor. She's a ballerina and the whole place is taken over. And then on the floor above that, we've got another one finishing up her schooling day online. So the whole house is totally in utter every single square foot is used for something. Wow. And it's not mad, actually. It's quite good. But occasionally it feels like there's a few too many people in the house.

06:56 Oh, and the animals. They haven't talked about the animals either. Luckily, I've managed to bar the door, so I'm not sure we're going to get cats and dogs up here. Well, that is a wonderful insight into some of the madness. And you're in where about Minneapolis. Minneapolis has recently become known, probably for the wrong things, but it's not all that. And so geographically, for those that don't know, whereabouts in the States is that? In the middle, near the top on the Canadian border. Okay. So when I first moved from London, it was kind of random. People say, where are you going? And I go, Minneapolis. And they go, Miniwhere. And I just go, No, no, not manywhere. Nelly, Canada. So Nelly, Canada. Yeah, I live in Nelly, Canada.

07:41 Well, Nick, you and I met. We were just talking about before we pressed live. We met in around about 2006, something like that. And the reason why it's so great to have you on the Team Super Dad podcast is that over the last 15 or so years, you've been on a fabulous journey and adventure and done some awesome things through your work around the world. And, you know, literally the first time we met, you had just picked up your camera and that was the start of something. And no one could have known, not myself, clearly, because I'm not you, but I don't even think yourself at that point would have known quite where this was going to take you.

08:21 And the exciting thing for me is that so many people, mums and dads, but you know, focus on dads, we, and I did a live stream about this this morning. We have a dream and a vision. We think that our life is going to turn out one way. And then we get busy, we get married, we have the kids, the work kind of like so many pressures come along. And before we know it, that vision that we had seems to kind of shrink. It seems to get a little bit further out of reach. But the frustration of it being out of reach actually grows. And, you know, in my work with Team Super Dad, in my own journey myself, I really understand that. And having you here this evening as someone, and I can't wait to talk about your work and everything you do with

09:06 The Point of Us and Soul Biographies and your inner view work. But even before that, there was the Nick who was working in London and thought there's a better thing out there and I want to go after it. So I can't wait to actually dig into that as well. Okay. So when we first met, right? You were like London agency life, weren't you? Working in media or something? Kind of. I never started off like that. So I was an adventurer. So an explorer of sorts. So I canoed the Congo and the Amazon and I crossed the Sahara. Sorry, you've got aeroplanes.

09:46 That's the trouble. You get a good mic and then the aeroplanes come across. Anyway, so, but you're right. I did work in the London marketing. marketing scene, I guess, you know, and in fact, I did end up running a company called Mintel, big market research company, or the international arm for that. Awful for me. It was a great, great job for someone, just not for myself. Do you think it was Alex at Lycos who introduced us or Tim at Tequila that introduced us? Alex Kovach at Lycos, Tim Bonnet at Tequila. Oh, Tim Bonnet sounds familiar.

10:22 Yeah. It was so long ago. Anyway, I wasn't really into all of that. And I even actually became chief executive of a company, of a company in the Hayes Group, which is like one of the biggest companies in the country for four days. And so I left Mintel because I realized it wasn't for me. And it had been against my better judgment. And I'd gone off to Central America and then I came back and the headhunters knocked on the door and they said, we've got these ideal things for you. And I said, I'm not sure, not sure what I want. Anyway, I got persuaded against my better judgment yet again.

11:03 And I went in and I was chief exec. My job was going to be buying these companies. Sounds to me make it makes me sound like I don't know. I can't even touch that time. It was so long ago. Like you're a business dude. Yeah, like I was a business dude. I never was. You know, I loved hanging out with people. That's what was great. But I suppose in the absence of not knowing what to do, everyone else I knew was kind of in that, so I was doing it. And then I resigned on the fourth day and I said, I think it's, well, I think you know, I said to the chief exec of the group, I think you know, you persuaded me, and I probably shouldn't have said yes.

11:41 So take your car, you don't need to pay me anything. And I took the train back to London. And my job was going to be buying companies, which sounds absurd because I wouldn't know how to buy a company. Yeah. And then I was just wondering, you know, I was doing lots of stuff, bits and pieces. And I'd never really done anything artistic in my life. Yeah. I taught myself guitar and I loved that. But I always imagined. And I didn't really, I wasn't really cognizant of anything like that. And then film appeared. And we were talking earlier. And the most fascinating thing that I pieced together before, what I did know

12:24 when I realized what the dream was. And it was a really quite ethereal dream in that I wasn't looking for it at all. So I was sitting in the Chancery Court Hotel in London in Hoban, minding my own business, not thinking about anything. I wasn't trying to work anything out. I wasn't even looking. And then suddenly out of the ether comes this idea that I should, you know, it didn't have words, but if it had words, it said, you have to pick a camera up, which is odd because I didn't have a camera. I'd never really touched a video camera.

13:02 I wouldn't know what to point it at. I wouldn't know what to make films about or in service of what or what route to take, even how to work one. But I knew enough to know what knowing is versus wanting something or believing it. That's very, very different. Knowing's always like this feeling that possesses you. Almost like you can't question it. You know it will be. It's almost like the question disappears. Yeah, like we're talking about like an instant, like a sixth sense, like a gut life. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. From left, far far beyond Leftfield.

13:41 So there was no stimulus. There was no outside stimulus. I wasn't admiring someone who was a filmmaker. I wasn't looking at a camera. I wasn't looking at anything. So there was nothing that provoked it in the physical world. Nothing. I've come to understand that well now. But nothing, you know, there was no conversation leading up to it. It was totally and utterly what you might call random. As I think about it, yeah, it was kind of random. I always describe it as out of the ether. It just suddenly occurred and I knew.

14:18 But of course, when that happens, it doesn't come with any instructions. It doesn't come with a business plan or a why, which was, you know, in the context of, you know, your group, your dad's, was a really quite inconvenient time because we just had our first kid. You know, she was probably not even one. And, you know, so we've got a family in London living in Clapham. And it's like, I've got to do this weird thing. I've got to go pick a camera. I actually walk around someone's house and borrowed their video. video camera, knocked on the door. It was more like that, you know, like it was very small and cheap, and

15:00 almost like an iPhone one had a better lens, you know, way before iPhone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually before YouTube started. Let's just frame this whole conversation, right? Because I think it'll be really helpful for people listening and watching. Might sound a bit weird, but let's just jump right to now, right? You've made how many films? You've featured how many people? Where's this journey taking you right now? Well, just to frame it for people, just do some random geezer I'm chatting to. This is well, what it I've come to work out retrospectively what this is.

15:40 Yeah. And it's mysterious as can be. Utterly mysterious. And it always was if I think back to it. And so I've made films, except, of course, they're not really films. They're what you might, you might look at them and go, well, they're human portraits, deeply considered human portraits of people very close up, physically close up, like almost like the framing we have here, but maybe even closer. You know, the MO of it is I sit with someone, usually only about a meter away, very close, and I have nothing to ask them.

16:20 Nothing. I don't have any questions. And so, you know, if I were filming you, for example, we'd sit in a room and I wouldn't have given you any briefing notes. There was no context apart from the fact you're Johnny, or you think you're Johnny. And my job is to see you beyond all the ideas you could possibly hold about yourself. And I worked out the best way to do that was just to sit there. And so I would sit there and there would just be silence and quiet. It was the complete and opposite of an interview.

17:03 I came to understand that the world is full of words, mostly that have some kind of attachment to them. So, you know, here we are on a podcast. Wouldn't it be great if I could tell you guys a load of stories and I could create this wonderful myth of this chap called Nick, who was really good at doing what he does, you know, films and other things. And maybe you could pass the word on or subscribe to the weekly films or buy something off me or just give me some kind of affirmation that I'm okay. You see, words they usually come out and they usually need something. They need some result in the world.

17:45 And that becomes very evident when you make film and you're present to someone. You know, in other words, there's no analysis or anything. There's just a stillness. And then you look at it back in the edit, you notice it's binary. Most words in the world come from that place I just described. But there is this moment where all that goes away. And it almost, instead of someone talking to you or at you, it's almost like they're spoken. So the words have come from a very different place. And people don't even know what they're going to say. It's come from, you know, I would say deep inside or maybe even beyond that.

18:30 And people stumble through their sentences and they start sentences and they have no idea what's on going to be near the full stop in that particular sentence, let alone on the far side of the full stop. Totally and utterly unguarded. And what tends to happen is the most extraordinary thing. People reveal themselves because their guard has dropped or there was no guard in the film. There is no guard. It wasn't dropped. It just wasn't there. I've come to see that. It allows them to see deeper into what they want to say rather than what they've... I guess in conversations we show quite a lot or we put on a facade or we say what people want us to hear.

19:13 Yeah, I had a wonderful example a few years ago where this I was filming by accident somewhere because I was asked to go and look at some leadership institute's work and give my observation about what they were doing with work and stuff. And I just happened to have my cameras there and the guy in charge said, look, would you bring your cameras out? And I tend to film live with the feed from the camera projected onto our screen, cinema screen. So there's nowhere to hide. You know, your face fills one side of the room, you know, big screen.

19:51 So there's nowhere to hide metaphorically and physically as well. And so the invitation was there, and someone marches up to the chair, this kind of elderlyish guy, wonderful guy called Ted. And I didn't know who he was. No one over those days had said what they did or who they were really. And he sits there and he starts talking, and I recognize where the words come from. I just have to go, Ted, Ted, let's just not do that. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, look, I tend to love to get this shot of people with their eyes closed. Just very still. I love, you know, I love the photography of that. I love the image in film as well, of just peace, kind of. So let's start there. It turns out he was a US congressman.

20:35 And he'd started, and I kind of worked that out along the way because he'd started to talk about these kind of liberal ideals, which sounded wonderful, but they were still, it was still a stump speech, as they say. It was still words put into the world in service of other people, which is still had a need attached to them. And I just said, look, you can sit there, Ted. Just sit there. If you don't even open your eyes and you don't even say a word, I think that will be enough. And I mean it, because I'm not looking for anything. I don't require anything from anyone in these instances.

21:18 So there's no one to fix. There's no story to tell that must be told. There's nothing to get off your chest, nothing to remedy. There's no contribution you have to make to the world. And those are almost the conditions. So almost like nothingness kind of seemed to have these conditions of what you might call presence, which isn't something you can do. It's not, I'll be a bit more present or I'll hold space. Space doesn't need holding. Space is just there. You know, this is mysterious, but life is just mysterious. It just is. And so, in that particular instance, as in virtually every instance,

22:03 this character sits in the chair and he's kind of a little shocked of, well, this person doesn't need anything out of me. What should I do? And then he starts trembling. And then the words that come out are quite extraordinary, spellbinding. And he'd never said them before. And, you know, people in the room were also quaking and crying. And, you know, like where the words had come from was somewhere really deep. That's how you see a human soul. It's really simple. It's nothing.

22:41 As soon as you interject any notion of the world needs to be different or you need to remedy something, you need to be someone. You need to contribute here. Your participation is contingent on you offering something here. Then you won't see someone. You'll see what you think is someone. You'll see a guy called Johnny who's got a story which we can all, you know, many of us can look at and go, oh, yeah, I think, well, we don't really see you. Not really. And it's a stark difference. And so

23:22 I hadn't worked that out actually. I just kind of did it naturally, largely because it seemed, well, if you're going to see someone, why would you ask a question? Because then I'm going to answer the question, and then all I can see is their words. And then people seem to, certainly more now than in the early days, people seem to be almost liberated to just for something to come through them. And so I realized, so I make films out of those to put the context in, you know, that I've always made films out of that. This the simplicity of that. And they are terrifying to people. They are hard to pay attention to. Attention is the key quality that most people miss everywhere.

24:06 Like full attention, unbridled attention. You can probably appreciate that with kids. You know, if you don't give them full attention, they're going to be, they know. And I think it's this full attention thing is probably the greatest gift we don't give each other. Yeah, we don't listen. We don't. People talk and we don't listen. We're working out what to say next. Well, yeah, not even that, but even when we're not trying to work out what to say, we're trying to work out what they're saying. We're We're actually listening, and listening, as most people understand it, is a verb. We're doing something, but to do nothing, no thing, is the most extraordinary thing.

24:49 It's almost, I wrote a poem once, I should probably read it to you. I'll see if I can get it one more. Yeah. Well, and just whilst you're doing that, you know, your, you know, the movies you've made over the last, as we've kind of worked out like 15 years, through the period of time when it was soul biographies and now on to the point of us, you're, you know, these films are spellbinding. You know, you said terrifying. I think the intensity of some of them could be, but they're also spellbinding. This, you know, there's a reason why you're in black and white. If people are wondering why Nick's in black and white, if you're watching on the live stream, all these films are shot in black and white

25:33 with this light colour casting across some part of the shot or the person. And it is just them talking. It's just, and you've done this throughout the world. You've been invited to do it. You've travelled yourself and found people. There's so much, there's more to your, there's a more practical side to what you've been out there doing in the world as well. And it has touched so many people in different places and revealed so much about those communities. Well, that's the thing. What I realized was happening

26:13 in some sense. I'll read you that piece of stuff. Because this is what I realized was maybe the contribution. So it's only got a few sentences in. And it was called Undivided and So Still Attention. And it goes, before your words of encouragement and well-timed advice, before items gifted up beyond an arm's length, did you ever consider the one thing that might turn the entire world on its axis? Your undivided and so-still attention? And I've, well, I don't think I know that essentially that's what was offered with the camera.

26:57 It's like, here we are. I don't, I'm not going to direct this anywhere because this would seem enough. You know, my overwhelming desire is for people, it's strange. All I found myself saying when people would come along for long periods of time to sit with the camera and stuff because I suddenly realized it was revealing some sense of truth out of people. People found it, oddly, really easy to say things that they never even imagined could be said. And yet there could be a hundred people in a room or 500 people in a room or 10 people.

27:40 It would just come out. It was like they were being spoken. And I realized, in some respect, it was letting truth come out. A truth be recognized in a way. And not empirical truth, you know, right and wrong. It's beyond the right and wrong. But it's this sense of something that once said was realized and you can't unsee it. And so I got myself in many situations where I'd either be commissioned as a filmmaker to make a film on conflict or schizophrenia or education or something, where the job was to go, yeah, I know this is what you've studied or this is your experience, but really, what if you were to sit there?

28:27 What would you say? And then we'd sit there and then out would come words riding on emotion which could be felt on film. And so that was really interesting. And is it because it's disarming or is it because people are actually given that space for the first time ever maybe to look inside, to be silent and think, maybe in the same way that you had your calling to pick the camera up, they're left in a moment where they go, oh, I've got to say something, I've got to say something. And then it's such a disarming moment that for the first time ever, maybe their real words come out, the thing they've always wanted to say starts to come out.

29:09 Yeah, well, I think both are probably true. Disarming in the fact that people aren't used to being with someone who doesn't need anything from them. I mean, I remember making a film in a hospice in DC, and the hospice specialized, because I did specialize, in African-American homeless men with age. AIDS, you know, niche. Yeah. But no one wanted them. You know, no one wanted to be around them. And so they set up this extraordinary thing. And I remember making this film, and I spent kind of three days there.

29:47 It was amazing. But I remember the real predicament of the hospice, and I suppose this is world over, probably, was that they get a lot of volunteers to come to work and people, staff to come to work. But it's very difficult to sit with a dying person and for it to be okay. So what people do is they sit there very still, but they want the person to live. They want to. And so there's no peace. So there's still something. There's a tension, absolutely. And it's not about the dying person. The dying person usually is just going, please leave me in peace.

30:27 I know I'm dying. And I've come to terms with it. And there's someone do-gooder in, you know, maybe that's being a little unkind, but that goes on. They don't mean to be do-gooder, but by virtue of being there and creating tension, they are do-gooder. Well-intended do-gooder. So could you sit with someone and want nothing different? Like, could I sit with you to the end of this podcast or to the end of time and we don't even speak? Would that be enough? I believe it would. There were times where nothing needs to be added and it's okay. And that's disarming in a way that it's comparatively to the normal minutes and hours and days you spend.

31:16 It's not usual. And then you asked another part to that. I did start to understand the, and this is the this is the this is the contrarian nature of this and this is why it's so in some some respects so very difficult to have someone understand this because it's it's antithetical to almost everything I realized it was nothing no thing so when I would teach this and I teach the camera method if you like as a way for people and I would always say well there's there's nothing to this like there's there's actually nothing to be done because it's the absence of everything that gives the liber that allows the

32:09 liberation as soon as you start any sense of interview or even thought that oh poor you you know that you know I know your bio you know what a terrible time you know that there's those early years of divorce and stuff must have been and you know the possibility of I'm thinking about this thing even that shuts someone down to what I'm talking about utterly but how would I know what you want what you need what you require what's needed here and as I started to do that I realized what was witnessing so it would look like there's a guy called Nick who's who's very still and actually really good at listening I'm not listening listening's a verb listening's an act every act that

32:56 happens gets in the way the witness is the thing we're sitting in its presence itself I mean that's mysterious in itself but that's what is here it's what we're in people call it all sorts of things space people love to say in fact someone said to me once oh I got it you must be really good at holding space in fact first they said they were trying to work out what and people always trying to work out what I'm doing how this works and they go you just got to be I go no no no you don't just got to be that's just something to do I know it's very de rigo and of the moment and you've got to be but that's just something that you also don't need to do you're off the hook on that and then that

33:36 same person said oh so you must be really good at holding space go no no space doesn't need to be held space is just here we're in it not only are we in it we're part of it we don't need to hold it you're off the hook on that as well that there's nothing to do here and with nothing to do it feels utterly different there's nothing to do in in this moment i mean there's stuff to do but in this moment i'm not trying to push you anywhere i'm not trying to serve you to help you

34:17 there's there's just almost it's just like bristling unbridled presence that's the most amazing thing actually i'm going to dig something else out because what i realized was that's how i picked the camera up in the first place: the absence of action. So I've got this friend called Simon Sinek, who wrote a book called Start With Why. And we once gave a lecture years ago, 12 years ago at MIT. And he did his very early Start With Why lecture. He was on first, and I followed him. And I remember, why is a wonderful concept? Just is. You know,

34:58 it's practical. It doesn't just inch people forward. Suddenly, people have a sense of purpose. You know, like I've worked out why I'm doing this. And I remember looking out at the crowd, it was the MIT Entrepreneurial Forum, and everyone was writing copious notes. It's useful. Man, if we could only answer why, we could give it to marketing and then they could do their work, you know, because it would, you know, wrap up in our mission statement and whatever. Of course, I come out and I think I'm a bit contrarian. I was just genuinely interested in this kind of wow, everyone's trying to write it down. To me, why would seem like better lived as a state, a state of how you are in the world, how you move through the world.

35:41 It's not a verb, it's not something that you answer, it's not even a question, you don't answer it. But then I come to understand that the thing that happened to me in that hotel with film was I wasn't looking and something found me. So I wasn't paying attention to anything. I wasn't trying to work anything out. I wasn't doing anything. And maybe a decade ago, I'm just going to look at this thing, about a decade ago, I wrote this poem called The Tree of Dreams.

36:18 And I kind of quite liked it. It was kind of simple. And I just had this character in mind, and I didn't realize really the character, I didn't realize the character was me metaphorically in some sense. And so I'll read you that because I think, you know, anyone who's listening, I know it's late over there, so maybe they'll listen to the podcast. But if you are looking for purpose and you're looking for your why, if you like, why you exist, what you're doing here, what's your contribution, what's your legacy and stuff, I have an idea you might be doing the very wrong thing.

37:00 Because I have this idea that if you weren't to seek, if you weren't to look, something would find you. So I wrote this kind of metaphorical poem. It's called The Tree of Dreams. It goes like this. Many had gathered under the tree of dreams. All but one stood shaking its branches for dreams to fall. Dreams that had been whispered to them by the voices of others, dreams that would fade with time. But one sat quietly waiting for a dream to recognize his soul and to consume him with no doubt.

37:41 And I'm thinking that life does have this capacity to almost recognize you, to find you, as opposed to you find it. And we are so enculturated into a life of control, a life of over there. Everything you look at shouts almost, if it had a voice, it would shout, you're not quite enough. You should be doing this slightly differently. You could have this. Oh, look over here. Wow, this. And nothing's ever enough, including oneself. And I realized that in those moments of utter presence, people realized that wasn't true.

38:27 And they were found. And I'm talking about myself as well. Absolutely myself. I'm found. And suddenly there's this extraordinary life, almost like a make it up as you go along life to no kind of particular plan. I don't have a strategy to this. My strategy is surrender. It's like I realized I am not in control like I thought once I might have been. And even then, I kind of probably knew that, yeah, I know my best laid plans. It's always going to turn out differently. And there is stuff to do in life and to make stuff happen, like for you to get the podcast going.

39:10 That's a lot of hard work. But where it came from, I don't know. I haven't asked you. But where it came from might be somewhere quite deep, somewhere beyond you almost. Like this. like well, I'm with I'm with I'm totally with you on that, you know, and I can I can share about that. You know, what I hear you're saying is there's there's some kind of cultural societal pull on where we think we've got to go and go to uni and get a job, and and somewhere else there's this was like depending on your persuasion, there's this like divine destiny where if we only stopped and heard, stopped and listened for a moment, we would

39:51 hear and see that thing that we were supposed to be doing, that that calling, if you if you like. You know, because in a way that goes back to what you said about go and pick up the camera, yeah. And I suppose you can wrap it up in the story of destiny and all what should happen. I didn't want to label it, but I think yeah, I'm not even sure if I believe in many of these things, these stories. I love the idea of them, destiny and whatever. And I know we have choice. In the end, I don't think it's that complicated. I think it's utterly, utterly simple, actually. Here we are, we feel stuff,

40:34 and you know you know, if you were still, you'd know. It would fill your bones. You'd know. There's something then about your bones that resonate with that. It's like a harmonious chord that you're doing the thing that goes with your bones. You know, if you'd have been off buying companies for haze, you realize after four days that wasn't harmonious with you. So I think whether destiny or whether, you know, like I said, whatever your persuasion is, that there is, there's something universally massive and equally tiny about

41:15 what are we supposed to do? What are we here for? You have, through your work, you know, clearly had an impact on you as an individual, but equally it's had an impact on communities, on institutions, on, I dare say, even nations. I know you've been commissioned to do work in South America of like making sure stories didn't get lost to future generations. I say worse than that. I helped someone run for president of their country. Right. He got thrown off the ballot in the last week because they thought he might win. And my job there was to ensure, as best I could, that the truth was told.

42:03 Yeah, so if you hadn't have listened to that calling of pick up the camera, and this is really important because there will be people listening to this who are thinking, I should be a gardener. But then they'll be going, well, I couldn't possibly be a gardener because how can I make money out of being a gardener? It might transpire that they're supposed to discover how to save the rainforest or something, but it would only have come through day one when they dug a rosebush and did the first day as a self-employed gardener. It's something about that hearing that calling, hearing that instinct inside you that with no idea where it could lead to, but it had to start somewhere on day one.

42:47 What's that sort of, it's a bit of a meme and a cliche, but you don't have to be great to start. You just have to start. You don't have to be great to start. You just have to start to be great. It's kind of obvious, but it all starts with day one, that first step. Yeah, well, that's awareness, which is what we're talking about. You become aware of something, awareness. And as the world becomes more aware, which it is, awareness is a real pain in the ass. As I say, it's a terrifying thing. You become aware of something. Now you're left with just one or two choices. Do I continue on as normal or do I do something different?

43:31 So if you had this overwhelming, deep-boned urge to become a gardener of some sort and it wouldn't go away, you become aware of it. Yeah. It's going to be utterly painful if you don't do anything about it. Yeah. But here's the thing: this is what I live streamed on this morning: is that many dads will suffer that thought for years, maybe their whole life. Maybe it could kill their soul, kill their relationship, maybe even push them to suicide because it's like a, what they call a double bind. They're just so at odds with the thing they want to do versus the thing they think they should stay doing that it tears them apart.

44:13 Yeah, I get it. And particularly if you're, you know, I won't say the head. head of a household, we're probably a little beyond that, but you feel responsible for, you know, kids. Yeah. And that, and you, and to be responsible, you, you kind of, you want some sense of certainty. So what you're doing is kind of you know where you are, but you know, it's a really painful place to be in. And another thing, which is probably why you do the podcast and why you get so energized by it, is

44:50 most people who go through that, because they never can't even articulate it, they feel utterly despondent and alone. Not knowing, because you don't wear it on your sleeve. It's not visible. You can't see someone in pain. You might recognize some of the symptoms, but you don't know someone's totally distraught because they're just in the wrong life because there's no way of recognizing it. And if they don't say, how would you know? And so the feeling of aloneness in that is that's terrifying. That's destructive. And I would imagine many dads are in that situation, you know, stuck in even stuck in relationships that they shouldn't be in.

45:36 But because of something that they've assumed and stuck in jobs, you know, or in jobs, I don't know, stuck. Yeah, stuck in so many things. Stuck in a life they don't want long for a dream of a vision of a life they aspire to. And stuck in a belief system. Oh, that's a really interesting thing. So I, years ago, before I met you, almost because I'd started taking these jobs, I just thought, well, what am I doing? I remember walking to Mintel, market research company. I've been canoeing the Amazon and climbing mountains and crossing deserts.

46:20 I ran away to become a flamenco guitarist. I literally left an agency, a marketing company, who there were kind of shares in the offing or some, you know, possible ownership. I took a one-way bus ticket to Granada, having been playing the guitar for about a year. I wasn't very, I didn't really, I loved it. I just wanted to, so I just went. You know, I did that. And then I was in a market research company and I walked in the doors and thought, uh-oh. But I didn't know what to do. I was completely lost in my entire environment. So I was kind of wondering why. And I'd done some things. There was a course I went on, which was one of the things

46:59 I kind of put together and I worked out. And someone told me how the human mind works. I thought, this is brilliant. I know why I did those things. I know the nature of the relationship between the conscious and unconscious mind and how ideas get on. It's simple and it's rectifiable. Was that a breakthrough for you? That was like a doors of perception. How old were you? What was the course? Oh, I was in my 30s. And it was a bit of information that was useful, but I thought it was far more useful than it actually was.

47:42 I set a business up to do this. And I remember sitting, and so basically reprogramming your mind. It was before the movie The Secret. It was before NLP became ready to do it. I had a similar experience after doing the Landmark Forum that I had a similar experience. Oh, right. So yeah, that, oh, I got a funny story. Where is it? It's supposed to be funny. It's a funny story about it. About the head of Landmark telling me that I had to be the head of the US landmark, looked me in the eye and said, You don't understand this. You have to do it. And I said, I have no need for it. Yeah. And I just did it. And she stormed off. Anyway, so this programming thing, it was really useful because what I realized was, wow, you've got shit thoughts.

48:26 You kind of have a shit life. You have rosy thoughts. You have this kind of rosy life. That was kind of how it goes. That's the explanation. Your thoughts become things, you know, and you know, and in some respect, that's kind of true. And I thought, well, this is great. I'm really good at it. I can play my guitar and speak. And I know how to speak from awareness. I can get people to flood their conscious mind and then put it on their unconscious with these dreams, these wonderful dreams. And about not that long into the business, I remember maybe 40, 50 people laid on a carpet

49:07 in Houston, in a hotel in Houston. And I had this other voice. It didn't have any words, but it was just like the. film voice that would come, and it just said, You can never do this again. And what it said is: if it had words, and I came to understand them, you can never do this because there's no freedom. All you're doing is replacing all you're doing is replacing one set of ideas with another set of ideas, one set of beliefs with another set of beliefs. And they may seem better, but essentially, you're just redecorating a prison cell. And you know, that was quite disturbing to realize that and to go, damn, well, what do I do now?

49:48 And I guess that led me to the camera and it led me to the tree of dreams almost. It's like, oh no, you know, if you sit still enough, and I don't mean necessarily go through the steps of what people might call meditation. I don't think it's, I don't think there's anything to do. Surrender is surrender, but it's not an act. I understand that. That's most of what I do now. It's the experience of that. So I just sit with people, sometimes with a camera, sometimes not. And there is just surrender. And then something consumes one, me all the time. Not all the time, that's wrong. But where the dreams came from, and it's not necessarily the big dream of the point of your life, because I'm not even sure about that.

50:32 But I'm talking, sometimes it's like tea or coffee or nothing. It's that there's this kind of we are inextricably part of this life, part of this universe. I know that. I've never felt disconnected, by the way. I don't know why. I've never, and I didn't realize people did feel that way. I've no idea why. And it's almost like there is nothing that isn't in the ether. It's almost like information is just pulled down

51:08 and we get in its way. And so where one's dreams come from, where one's why comes from, where one's purpose comes from, where one's instruction to move the next footstep comes from can come from one of two places. It can come from almost what you believe to be true, which has usually been inherited from somewhere. You know, like you've looked out at the world and it's told you what to think and you believed it to be true, then believed it to be original thought.

51:46 In fact, I wrote a terrible poem once, a very rude one, about God. And I think I can't remember the first line exactly, but it said something like: if no one had ever told you of God, what would be your sense of God? Like if no one had told you a single word. Very disturbing. And if no one had ever told you of you, what would your sense of yourself be? No one had uttered a single word to you about yourself. There was no reflection in an advert.

52:26 There was no mirror. There was no parents to tell you this or that. And so I realized that everything that I believe is there's something really mysterious about it and liberating about it as well. And I guess as a result, it becomes simpler for one's life to be lived, a life to be lived through you as opposed to by you. And that's, you know, I won't say it's easy. I'm not saying any of this is easy because you still live in a world that refracts and reflects all sorts of things and you and you don't know.

53:09 But does it take some of the responsibility off us? When we're a bit numb to what life could be like, because we're living like that. Yeah, I mean, the weight of the world. I'm going to read you something else. I just thought I put this on the front of the site at the moment. And I was ready for with this project. That's on your site on the point of the case. Yeah, I've got a few sites, but the pointofus.com is really where I've looked to try and do something about this sense of peace. I realized that I understand what not to do

53:49 for the sense of peace and belonging, really. For this kind of surrender, there's nothing to do. I don't necessarily understand its nature, but I know that I can do stuff and it seems to happen. But I was trying to put it in context, and this is what I wrote. I just said, many, if not most. of us, live with an underlying sense that we're not enough as we are. It drives much of what we do and how we are. It causes us to seek constant self-improvement. There is no peace. But what if the remedy had never been in the pursuit of a better version of ourself, but instead existed in a profound and immutable experience of knowing that there's no one to fix, that we are and always have been enough.

54:39 And what if such an experience were to give us the sense of peace, belonging, and an inspired life that we so yearn for? And so I'm just thinking of the amount of effort expended by us in our lives of trying to become someone, someone worthy of getting through the gates of, I think I wrote in one piece, getting through the gates of heaven or nirvana or some cultural equivalent, getting through the gates of success, so that then we'll be enough and we'll be acceptable

55:23 and we'll be okay. When the truth is, if you were to sit still, especially in good company and sometimes on your own, you may just realize that actually you're okay, that this is okay, that you're alive, that this is enough, and from there, there's somewhere else. But here we are. That's, you know, that's really simple. But I'm not sure many people believe it could be true, but it's true. Well, I think a horrific percentage of people would never even have that thought.

56:05 So they're just, they are completely closed off to it. You know, this conversation in many parts has flipping blown my mind because you're listening intently, and you're talking about not listening so intently. And as I'm hearing your words, I'm thinking like wider and wider. You know, I've taken a fair few drugs in my time and those experiences expand your conscience. You know, you have different thoughts and you can't go back after having or seeing that the doors of perception widen or whatever. So when you're hearing some of your message, your concepts, your observations,

56:50 it's startling at times because I'm thinking, how could I think more like that? How could I take more time in those moments? What would my experience of others and of life be if I did that more often? Has there been things that I've missed? I didn't see, I didn't hear. In looking to my left, I missed the person on my right that was actually the person I was supposed to see. It's profound. And for everybody rushing around, trying to get somewhere and trying to force something or create something or stop something from happening,

57:33 makes me want to stop and say to those people, particularly people who are struggling, in truth, is there actually something that you need to be struggling about right now? Like the struggles is something we think we should be upset about. We think we should be upset about the relationship ending or we think we should be upset about losing our job. In reality, is there a struggle right here? And if you took a moment to sit there peacefully, what really is going on and what could you create out of this moment rather than fear it? Yeah, yeah. I get it. It doesn't really make a lot of sense. And, you know, what I'm talking about isn't really for the mind, I don't think.

58:18 And it's terribly, you know, in a way, it is quite offensive to the status quo. You know, what I realized. Oh, it totally does. Right. So what I realized, this one was, I always thought I was so stubborn. But what I realized is everything that I'm talking about and everything that I've done since the moment I picked the camera up, no one told me. I've never been a seeker. I was never looking. I haven't been a member of a religion or a spiritual tradition. I'm not a seeker. I wasn't looking for an answer to anything. What happened was just like the tree of dreams.

59:01 I just sit there and things occurred. I wasn't trying to get them to occur. occur. And I realized there's this way. There is nothing. Here we are. It's okay. You're a part of this. There's nothing required. It's totally and utterly unconditional. You belong. It was unconditional. You have almost access to things you wouldn't dream of. But there's no condition. You don't have to learn it. There's no action. We always assume that for something to change, in other words, the way we feel, and Ergo, circumstance as well, to change, something needs to be done.

59:43 And so starts this human journey of, you know, looking over there. You know, I wonder if they've got it. You know, huge personal development industry based on, and I think some of it's probably wonderful. I haven't really taken part in it, but there's an awful lot of advice about what you have to do to get to this thing called. Yeah, but to be clear, a lot of what you're speaking of is stuff that I've learned from landmark courses or from other personal development stuff. So these individuals, these companies, they don't own that. People can discover this on their own journey. That's why it's a bit strange that that woman would say that to you. In truth, I think she's probably so excited to

1:00:26 like, oh my gosh, if he knows all this already, imagine him knowing even more. No, she didn't know me. She didn't know me. Oh, she didn't know you at all. Well, that's very landmark, is that they're so excited to have everybody taste the taste. Yeah, but I mean, the point in saying that this just exists. It doesn't need to be conjured up. You being enough, you being okay, you being at peace, doesn't need any conjuring. It doesn't need a change of circumstance. It doesn't. It needs the opposite.

1:01:05 It needs nothing. And then you see. So it's just about the recognition of what it is that you are. And I'm talking about this kind of very ethereal connection. You know, often people are talking to me about, well, what are you talking about? Belonging. And I'm going, oh, yeah, it's not belonging to a group of people or a golf club or something like that. It's belonging to this all. Because when you realize, when you catch sight of the fact that you are a part of this and not you understand it, you know it, there is no question, that puts you in a much or a very different place.

1:01:48 I remember someone came away from some stuff we do in the camera and he said, yeah, nothing changed. In other words, we hadn't done anything, yet everything seems different. And then everything starts changing. And I think that, you know, that comes from this kind of sense of surrender as opposed to pushing forward to a point over there. Yeah. And, you know, if one was to look for the strength to follow through something that you're aware about, about, you know, something that's just come to you, you know, whether it's being a gardener or spending more time with your kids or

1:02:34 going over there or something like that. Just be aware of where that's come from. Has it come from your fear of not having something, of not being enough, and looking over there? My God, that guy over there, Johnny, he's already got it made. You know, maybe I should do a podcast, you know, etc., etc., which is generally the way of life. Or did it, was it kind of handed to you? Did it consume you with no doubt? Still hard because you don't know what to do, but at least you know that that's to do. You know, that I have no idea. Like with the camera, why would the camera? That was stupid. I'd never done anything like that. I hadn't really taken a photograph before. I don't, like, it didn't make any sense.

1:03:18 But somehow I knew. It's like, oh, that's not going to go away. That just haunts me. No, no, well, that Roger Black video, right? Because you showed me it. You know, he was pretty much the first person you interviewed. Yeah, he was. And you'd done some NLP or training, old life coach training type stuff, had you or something? I'm not at that point. No, no, no. No, no, I've never done that. So you decide, well, but you were asking him questions. Actually, in the ways of many podcast interviews today or what people are up to on their YouTube channels, you sat down with Roger Black and asked him about his journey. Way before anybody... You said that YouTube wasn't even invented then. So way before anybody was doing stuff like that.

1:04:00 Yeah, I, you know, I'd had a he was a runner, by the way, a British Olympic 400 meters, wasn't that right? Yeah, he won, yeah, 400 meters, very fast, you know. And he was, our dads used to work together, he was needed to target for me, you know, at the doctors, and he was like my brother's best mate when they were five. And I know his twin sister really well, Julia. And so I was around his house, and you know, to my best knowledge, it was the first time I stuck a camera in front of someone. It's really stuck in my mind, really stuck in my mind. It was a gray table, like on a balcony type thing, or something. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was. This is what I remember of it. And I remember it quite well. And it was called, I think it was called About Certainty.

1:04:43 And he was talking about what we're talking. Actually, think about it. He was talking about what we're talking about. He goes, when you know, you know. You don't know how you know, you just know. And then your job is, you know, you've become aware of something. Do you dare do something about it? And I think that's what the film was about. And my memory is I didn't really ask him anything. You know, he, this was like in the early days, I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing. I still don't. You know, like if I'm, I go and film someone, now I've got this huge catalogue and I've filmed, you know, lots of well-known people, but mainly not well-known people.

1:05:20 You know, I've also, I've been, you know, I've helped someone run for president. I've been banned from the top university in the world, or they say they are, for because the dean was worried about what I might ask them. You know, truth has a terrible, you know, like if you're in front of a camera and ironic that most of your videos are you not asking anything and he banned you for what you might an implicit misunderstanding of what this is but there is this this coercive energy almost that just seems to force it out of you and you know I've I've filmed multiple murderers you know all sorts it doesn't really matter I see the same look in

1:06:07 fact one of the odd questions that I used to get asked perennially well not perennially every day in the early days was where on earth do you find these people and that seemed a really odd question to me it's like I got lucky and all the really open people lived in my you know in SW4 and but what people were really saying I came to understand was that I don't see people like that and the answer is it there is no one that it's not okay if you were to give them your full and undivided and so still attention if you were to in the space between us remove everything remove your need for this to be anything remove your need to help them to serve them to fix them to make them look a certain way show their best side if you that all goes someone just feels something

1:07:02 and you could dress it up in all sorts of ways they feel safe enough i don't think there's even of that none of that is cognitive it's just it's eerie in a way but then you start to understand it's mysterious but life is mysterious it's a it's an utter mystery yeah that's that's a it's one it's it's one way of living what kind of impact or what kind of value has this brought to you as a as a as a dad as it in your family i mean you know it's like you're having this mystical wonderful deep conversation with me and then you're going to go downstairs and and tit about and make a milkshake and play table tennis like like yeah is there elements of this that you've brought into your family

1:07:51 where you have been able to feel perhaps that you're better connected or there's more open communication or like what what difference do you think this has made to you in your role as a father yeah i don't know i in sometimes it's great and sometimes i think it's really difficult sometimes i think i probably like most dads here get too much into their work you know too many hours spent wondering about the nature of this and that and and you know still attempting to make the mysterious work which you can't do by the way uh i come to understand that i just keep forgetting it um

1:08:30 and so you know i think double-edged sword some of it is amazing and especially now they got older like our eldest daughter you know there are some really cool conversations and i can see her questioning everything in this rather mysterious way you know to take one of my lines into a religion class and so say, Well, what if no one had told you about God? What would be your sense of God? You know, or something like that. But to understand the nature of it, it's kind of cool. I mean, I think it gets a bit much from sometimes actually because I do question everything, but not to be bloody-minded.

1:09:11 I'm just really intrigued. Like, how could you say that and not consider what you said? I know how you can say that and not consider. So, you know, I think the household is, you know, I think there's a lot of kindness and, you know, I'm hoping that they pick up on that. I think you can't help but not pick up on that. Yeah, of course. But I'm going to carry on. But, you know, I think in many ways, it's probably a normal household that we don't have a great deal of strife, although we do have, you know, one of the kids is quite difficult and she's just difficult, you know,

1:09:55 for whatever reason. And, you know, I think we're probably, it's probably similar to many, many places. What I think we're quite good at is realizing that if anyone's stressed, that there's a reason for that. You know, and there's a projection often, and suddenly you get to realize that. That's kind of quite, that's quite good. But yeah, well, that is important to say, hang on a minute, everyone, what's going on here? Because we could ignore the fact that something's going on and just go headlong into conflict over the next three hours, or we could acknowledge something's wrong here. Which one of us isn't well today, or which one of us is upset about something? Something's not quite right here.

1:10:40 And I'm getting better at that. Both my kids have hit puberty. Didn't realize because one is a boy and one is a girl and they're two years apart, but that basically means they're doing it at the same time. Oh, yeah, boys, we're way behind. Is that right? We're way behind every respect. Yeah, yeah, Rosie's two years younger. But just to realize, I've had to adjust and be like, okay, so now they're going to be grumpy at times, or they're going to be really outrageously boisterous. And I've just, and I've just got to say, just let him be as much as we can. But then I'll also say, just so you know, that's about the eighth thing I've let go. And so there's not going to be a ninth. Okay, I can tell you that right now.

1:11:25 Like, if it is, you know, this mysterious side that I've been talking about, it isn't, it is otherworldly. But one can live that, you can live with your feet on the ground with that as well. But families, oh my God, they're like, so do you think there's an exercise you can do? You know, this, this, just, I mean, to talk about landmark again, there is an exercise in one of the courses called the Be With exercise. And you literally stand in front of someone, you're not allowed to say anything, you just be with them. And like, people start crying, people start laughing, people like it, like the response is unexpected across 100 people, you know.

1:12:10 And I know of families that do that periodically between themselves. So there's tension, there's arguments, there's stress and strife, and then say, right, we'll have a, we're just going to reconnect. And so the be with is you're going to sit there and just like in peace like you do in your movies and just let what needs to be said come up as an emotion more than a verbal thing. Yeah. And so I've, you know, I'll sit with my wife and interview. I call it interview with the camera rolling. Yeah. We did it 40 minutes, one word.

1:12:49 Just one word. And that was the experience that I was talking about. Haven't done it with the kids, I always found it quite difficult to tie them down to a chair. You know, like there was always so much pain. Maybe there'll come a time. But it is like to try and understand it, how to do it well, you know, a family. Yeah, yeah. And you try your best. It's like, wow, you know, I wonder, I wonder. And then realize that you, you know, I remember once hearing someone say, I don't even know who it was. I think my wife told me, and I thought that was a good idea. Your job is to really not get in the way of your children.

1:13:30 Sure, you've got to make them safe. And I'm not even totally convinced about education. You know, and we have used Waldoff, if you know, the Steiner schools. Right, yeah, Anasty, Anastina, yeah. Yeah, it's a very contrarian education. But, you know, I'm not sure we saw our job as not getting in the way. as best we could and doing anything in service of a kid working out what on earth they're doing here, you know, on this really profound level. I don't know whether we got that, but we, you know, and I think I think there'll come a time soon where maybe there'll be more of that. I mean, I'm always digging it, and I think Caroline's doing that as well. We did Steiner with Rosie for about a year, and

1:14:15 it didn't sit well with her. It didn't sit well. And I've got friends who are at Steiner schools and absolutely love it. So I totally see the value. And oh my God, who's the English guy that just died? The writer, he wrote a lot about education. They always do this. Scouser, awesome guy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. And comedian. Well, he seemed like a comedian. Yeah. Ken, someone. Yes. Check us out. We're almost there. His book was The Impact of the Edge. Yeah, Ken. Anyway, that's it. We'll put it in the show notes.

1:14:59 I'll work it out. But here's a question just before we finish. Did your wife marry the adventurer or the executive? Yeah, the free spirit. The free spirit. So oddly, it was as mysterious as everything else in life, pretty much with my life anyway. I collided with her in the Bahamas. I didn't mean to. And I saw her, I met her. And I didn't, I don't think I said it out loud. But I meant it's like, oh, it's you. I knew

1:15:40 her, yet I'd never met her. And then one thing led to another. She flew to London a few weeks later. And then we were just chatting. And then I said, I think I said something like, so when exactly are you going to marry me? You know, it just kind of came out. I didn't mean to say it. It just kind of came out. So we got married. And there was this real sense of ancient something. And it was like, oh, this is stupid. She's far too small. And she's American, for goodness sake. What's that about? You know, I'm a London. I've traveled the world, but I never really even felt like going to America. Didn't seen the place, but it's out of your control if you notice it and then you do something about it. You become aware. And so I think she probably

1:16:25 went for the things she couldn't understand as opposed to the things that she saw that I could describe. Yeah. And that's often what we avoid, almost like as an uncomfortableness. If we can't decipher it, if we don't understand it, the common thing would probably be, it's a bit awkward. I'm going to move away from it. And actually, this conversation is very much about lean into it because there's probably a lot of magic and answers inside of that awkwardness. Yeah, like what if there was nothing, nothing at all that you didn't know? Like people love to say that we're connected, everything's connected. Well, if it was, there's nothing that you don't know that you're not connected to.

1:17:13 What if that were true? Would you do something with it? Would you. And the route to recognizing that was nothing. In other words, there was nothing to do because everything you do got in the way. Yeah, everything Nick and Johnny does gets in the way of us just knowing that. Then you might spend some time being quite still, sitting under the tree of dreams almost, like waiting for something to recognise your soul and consume you with no doubt. Not even just for the big stuff. Just you just know, you know, like the person who you spend your time with, not necessarily your marital partner, but who you spend your time with,

1:17:58 what you spend your time doing. I mean, man, we've got a live. We do stuff, we make stuff. It's amazing. And so here's, I think, an awesome way to probably end this all off. If someone wants to tap into this, someone who's like, blind me, if someone's not really into this or hasn't considered it before, it's possibly even unlikely they're still listening, but I'll clip it out and put it at the front. But there's definitely value in this kind of peace and this connectivity and this giving time to consider what's really going on rather than rushing about looking for it.

1:18:43 In your work and in your experience? Is there a way that someone can tap into it? Is it as simple as being still for periods of time? I'm using stillness not as the absence of movement, by the way. I'm not talking about sitting cross-legged on top of a mountain listening to vegetarian music. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a stillness, in other words, an absence of trying to look. I wrote this piece called An End to Seeking. You know, it's a contribution, but I did see that every time I looked, I was blind.

1:19:28 And therefore, if I stopped looking and would just enjoy the experience of sitting with you, if it, you know, something found me and it didn't come from me. And it was extraordinary. And so to understand, even have an idea that you might have, you might be part of something far more magnificent than you ever thought. No, that sounds, that's not the right word. Far larger than you thought, with more capacity than you ever thought.

1:20:07 Yeah. But you didn't need to do anything to deserve it. And the way to it was not try to push it, not try to push the world in your favor over there. There's still stuff to be done to get, you know, to make a podcast work. And, you know, you put a lot of hard work in. I know that. You've worked out the technology. You've continually worked on this stuff. You've called it something. You've branded it something. You do the work. But there's still this sense of something behind it which drives you. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But there is this thing. So that there's nothing required, like a life force or something.

1:20:50 It's just there. It's just, you are it. And therefore, if you're on this almost this race to become someone or this journey to become someone because someone told you so, or you assumed that that's what they were telling you because everywhere you looked from your early days in education, I'm at school. I've got to come better. I've got to pass this. I've got to do that. Or you're in a job. That's the way. I've got to get up there. Or your parents saying you could be better at that. You could do this. You'd be safe if you did that. To a billboard saying you could look like this if only you did that.

1:21:30 All those things that people that were told to or around you and you took on board. What if you didn't have to play that game? Yeah, you could still play that game. You could still go through this journey of life and become all those things, but you didn't need to because you just knew. Somehow you knew. You know, back to the first thing I said, maybe about picking the camera up. I didn't want to, I didn't believe it. I wasn't convinced that I had to do this. It just came from somewhere. I just knew. There was no doubt. There's not no doubt about lots of things. I'm totally uncertain with most things. I don't know what's going to happen, but I know

1:22:15 I don't think I know. I know. I know picking a camera up was a good move for me. And I know there's something that will never die. That's the thing I really know. I don't know how I know. And it's not Nick will never die, but there's something that I'm part of that will never die. And somehow, somehow, you know, there's a faith in that. And it's not in a faith called anything because I don't know how I know it. I just know it. And I think that's probably deep down in everyone. Everyone has that capacity because they are, at least part of them is part of that as well.

1:22:52 Yeah. It's all mysterious. It's all mysterious. And it's like, oh, I got this poem called The Glorious Ignoramus. And it basically describes. I'll read it as the last thing. I've got to do this just because. It's tough listening to some of what you're saying because it literally, as I'm listening to your words, it's making me think so hard, like so profoundly and deeply, that when you stop talking, my brain's just left there going, what's happening next? They're like, what's like, where do I take that thought, basically?

1:23:35 But what if you didn't have to take it anywhere? No, no, I really hear that. I do. really hear that. But I think it's also like when you read something profound that you've not considered before, or you suddenly have reason to question how you thought things occurred or things existed before. And you're like, oh, wow. What if I don't have to worry about all those things? What if I didn't have to fear that that was going to happen? What if... What if my marriage ended because I was supposed to experience that and learn that lesson so that I could take it forward and help others?

1:24:13 You know, suddenly so much of what we're running towards or running away from, it becomes so pointless because it was just there for us, good or bad, right or wrong, hot or cold. It was just there for us to go through. Yeah, I had one guy, a Canadian guy in front of the camera once, and he said, oh, man, that was like deja vu and insight as to the future all around. At the same time. At the same time. It's like, yeah, but that's, and it wasn't conjured up by a guy called Nick with a camera. Of course it wasn't. It was just there. He was just part of it. But he never thought that doing nothing would allow him to see that. Yeah. I think that's as simple as it gets.

1:24:56 But, you know, like, what if that were true? That would be wonderful news. You wouldn't be lazy because you would be inspired. You know, something from within would drive you. And I think that's maybe what people want. They want to feel like the life is lived through them, you know, and is bigger than the character called Nick who's trying to just get by. It takes a lot of pressure out of situations and families. It's like priming. Yeah, so this last piece, then I guess we should go. But it was called The Glorious Ignoramus. And I wrote it kind of as a joke to describe to someone who was trying to work me out.

1:25:37 And I realized it kind of described how I am when I'm sitting with my camera and someone in front. And so I said these words and they're called the Glorious Ignoramus. It says, or it goes, I don't know, but I know that I don't know. I love that I don't know. That I can never know for sure. So I've stopped looking to understand you or convince you. And now finally, I can see you. I'm a glorious ignoramus. And I loved it. In fact, I might write a part two because it's really, I think I'm probably a, you know, and we probably all are a glorious ignoramus.

1:26:21 Ignoramus meaning, you know, the Latin for we don't know. I don't know, not for sure. We don't know what we don't know. No, no, exactly. But also, even when you think you do know it, you probably don't. And so, but the but a wonderful thought is like whether we understand it or not isn't going to make it work any differently. The life and the universe or whatever you call it still goes on. So it's almost like nature doesn't need us to understand it to work. So we're off the hook on that. So we don't need any sense of control. So almost like you should strike this entire conversation and go, well, if there was anything that sounded like it might have been true, just discount that because it might not be. You do get to consider it. Like this might have just been two guys.

1:27:03 Well, actually, one guy just talking bullshit. Now we really are going back to some acid days. I hardly ever touched the drug. I remember one person describing an acid trip to me. I'm going, damn mate, I walk around like that. Well, no. You do? Yeah. And someone in front of the camera once goes, oh my God, they said the veil just dropped. And what do you mean? He said, she said, I've taken ayahuasca 97 times. That's what happened. But we didn't do anything. Yeah. And I was nothing was done. Yeah.

1:27:42 I was about to say that because I've read on the subject and, you know, in kind of crude terms, we're messing with the brain. We're messing with chemicals in the brain. But actually, it is the brain. So that state that we've caused, we could create on its own, basically. And I think it does. Because it exists, but it's nothing. But to a large degree, that's what you've spoken so wonderfully and profoundly about. And it's, you know, it is nothing, but it is also a thing and it's accessible.

1:28:22 And this conversation might have been quite tricky for some people to stay connected to, to follow. But if they can go back and listen to it, they've got some extra hours in their life, maybe putting. it on one of the half speed or something, but they can actually go back and listen a couple of times because the wisdom is in there. They just got to actually take a moment to hear it, to really hear it. Yeah, it might be utterly confusing to people. Hopefully, so. Yeah. Hopefully, so. Myself as well. If I listen back to it, go, what was they saying? Wow, I wonder if it's true. But tell us about The Point of Us because if anything, oh, by the way, Ken

1:29:07 Robinson was the guy we were talking about before he wrote The Element. Sir Ken Robinson, yeah. So sorry, it's called Sir Ken Robinson. The point of us is your latest sort of home for all your work. But more than that, it's a community as well, which actually people can come and be part of. Yeah, so we just started this, and the real impetus was what I realized was there is this point of surrender where nothing's been done and people realize what it is that they're part of. And I would always do that, you know, that we'd have these programs and programs, I guess, was a good way of describing it. You know, people would come for four or five days, three days a weekend, whatever, where I was traveling in the world.

1:29:50 Is that on the walk? I saw that on the site, on the walk. I want to come on the walk. Oh, the walk about, yeah. But essentially, what was happening was the nature of what I've been talking about. It's a surrender. Often it would be provoked by just sitting very still in front of the camera and watching people in these big images suddenly just give up needing it to be anything or needing to be anything. They weren't just being, they were just there. And that would provoke this feeling, this real sense of we really are part of this. The thing that people, so many people write about. But it wasn't, we never even really spoke about it much.

1:30:31 It was just there and it was felt. And it profoundly affected many people and the relationship between them. And I was always just craving, just really yearning that people should know each other. Like, I know so many thousands of people that have been exposed to parts of the work anyway. And I just thought, wouldn't it be cool if people knew each other? And then because they knew each other through this work, then they didn't have the bullshit of just saying, well, I'm Nick and I'm a filmmaker and I'm from London. And they didn't even need to do that. Like participation was not based on anything you did.

1:31:12 The mere fact that you had a pulse was enough. And it was okay if you sat on the edge till the end of time and you never said a word, never even said your name. You were still part of it. And so I guess the reason for me creating this thing called The Point of Us, which then there's a segment which is called The Us Community, is basically so people can come along and experience that and realize that no one had to tell them. Like there was nothing to learn. There was nothing to do. And so maybe, I don't know, maybe some people might be able to just set down this effort of

1:31:58 trying to become someone because they don't feel enough. Maybe there was a community of people that you could sit in and you just know that you're okay. And that's really what it is. And so I was drawn. What I realized was, yeah, I do make films. I suppose I'm a filmmaker in some respect, but really what it was about was surrender as a way so like a life could be lived through one as opposed to strenuously lived by one that. So, yeah, the pointofus.com is the site I made, all these big black and white images of people. Yeah. And, you know, more and more content will go out there. I've probably got about 250 pieces of.

1:32:41 Oh, it's wonderful. It really is. Everyone should go and check it out and look at the community and stuff as well. So this has just been wonderful, Nick. I'm so. You're really good at this, by the way. I know, because I've been interviewed by lots of people. Okay, thank you. Yeah, no, you are. I mean that. Although you said you were trying to get it up here, you didn't show signs of that. Not really. You know, like getting caught in, oh, what would be a clever question? What would you know? Which so many interviews are. Well, do you know what I over the years of doing this or doing videos and

1:33:25 the more preparation, and it's not like I don't prepare, but you can kind of. create a load of questions. And sure, sometimes that makes for a nice, consistent format across podcasts and stuff. But actually, to have real conversation and allow it to flow for me, I enjoy it more. I still have to control people sometimes. Like, can we just get back to what we were here for? Or can we have some fun for a moment? Or can we, you know, can we explain what the hell you're talking about to people who don't know? But, but more than anything, the encouragement and the joy I get out of it is at the end, most people, more often than not, will say exactly what you just said to me.

1:34:10 And so, I take great encouragement and satisfaction in that. Because if people enjoy being interviewed, if people enjoy being part of the conversation, then I think there's a chance that people will enjoy listening to it. Thank you. What a brilliant, brilliant 60 minutes with an awesome guy. I mean, Nick has done stuff, right? From Amazon Adventurer to accidental managing director to picking up a camera and becoming this movie producer, this soul biographer.

1:34:48 If you want to see kind of how it looks, you know, Nick just did this in, he did his camera in black and white. So, if you go over to our YouTube channel or the Facebook page, you can see Nick and I talking on video. But I just, it's like, it's like talking to John Lennon or something, isn't he? Just like really softly spoken and really profound. I hope you enjoyed it. If you know other dads who you think, if you heard people on other podcasts, if there's a famous sportsman, DJ, stuntman, spaceman who you'd like to hear on the Team Super Dad podcast, then connect us up and drop me a message.

1:35:25 Let me know who it is and I'll see what I can do to get them on. Or maybe it's you. Maybe you're a dad. You don't have to be famous or successful even, but if you've got a story, if you've got something that you think can make a difference to other families, to other dads, then absolutely, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to have you on the Team Super Dad podcast. And of course, I'd love to have you in the Team Super Dad community. My daughter is screaming a song at the top of the stairs. So maybe you can hear her. In fact, I hope you can because that's what it's all about. It's about family. It's about having good times and it's about making the absolute best of our lives. Subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already. That way, you'll be sure to get all the latest episodes. I do the wrap-up on Friday.

1:36:09 There's episodes like this. I'm working on getting a group together to do a live sports podcast, except it's not about sports, obviously. And so it's all happening. Thanks for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Your time, your ears, your heart. I'll see you over in the Team Superdad community and all of our programs. Johnny here, Team Super Dad out. Bye. This has been Team Super Dad. Find us at TeamSuperdad.com.