Your Marriage Isn't Broken, It's Paused feat. Dr Lee Baucom

00:00 That's the rolling of the eyes. That's the turning away from and walking away from that's disrespectful when all of that comes together, The next point is disappointment where you're like this is not what I thought it was going to be. You're not who I thought you were. This is when you begin to demonize which leads to disliking your spouse And the only next stage beyond that is disdain Like I am done with you and I'm done with this relationship Welcome to The Jonnie Jensen Show, where modern dads discover how to create the true riches relationships and results they deserve. Get your high value man blueprint and join our community at highvaluemanproject.com Let's go! Most men I speak to aren't in terrible relationships They're in completely flat ones The love is there but somewhere in there right? But the spark, the intimacy, the genuine excitement of being with each other that has gone quiet And most couples just accept that

01:00 Which if you've listened to the podcast very often, you'll know that I'm completely against. You know these couples they call it growing up they call it like oh well we've been together a long time settling down it's the reality of long-term relationships but that's just not something I'm willing to accept I am genuinely excited to see my girlfriend. Five years we've been together and i know that's not 20 years but, I want that for myself for as long as we're together forever hopefully! But for every man listening not just a honeymoon phase but a relationship that is actually alive you know where the intimacy, the passion, the physical connection also just the laughter and the playfulness are ever present things

01:41 We're not just co-managing a household, we're not just friends who happen to be married. We are actually a passionate couple. My guest today has spent 30 years helping couples get back to that and crucially he's worked out how one person can start shifting the whole system even when the other isn't on board yet. I actually bought Lee's Save The Marriage program during my own divorce Possibly a month or 12 too late. That was 10 years ago, but that thinking definitely changed me and here we are today. Absolute pleasure! Thank you for reaching out to me Lee

02:18 Lee Baucom, welcome to The Jonnie Jensen Show. Well, Jonnie thank you for having me I'm excited about this story when you told me about it when we were chatting and like that's cool because even when things don't work you took it to the next level and grew with it and extended that in that that's always a piece of the process I've had to learn so much about myself as a result of the divorce. And, I think a lot of men should realize that. The stats on second marriages failing is a horrible number basically! Why would you do it twice? But don't get married twice...I'm not sure if I'll ever get married again but nonetheless getting it wrong, getting it that wrong

03:00 I really learned, I took it upon myself in my rebuild to really find out like what about me in my marriage wasn't quite right. It wasn't like I was a bad guy but in my mind I was a great husband. Dr Robert Glover's No One Missed the Nice Guy was a big influence on me and putting myself back together But very much, you know your Save the Marriage program really had me consider ways that I expected a relationship to be. Way that I allowed arguments to manifest and taking it into the realms of The High Value Man Project which is what i do now...I could really see how I wasn't leading

03:49 My marriage, how I probably could have and how I was really far too precious about it not being the way I wanted it to be and panicking about going wrong and clinging on for dear life. And all sorts of things that actually aren't that healthy in a modern relationship. At the risk of waffling on, I just don't think many men understand what it takes to keep the love alive, to keep interest there So, I'm going to start with you.

04:41 And so before I answer that, let me back up on a couple of things you said. One of the things that was true early days about relationship is in my career is I would wait for like the spouse to come into office and by all accounts, I was waiting for the horns out of the head and tail with the spike on the end of it to come walk into my office and the nicest people would come into my office and I would have two nice people who were not treating each other nicely, who are not treating their relationship nicely. And it really was clear to me The marriages are rarely about bad people getting it. There are some, but generally they are good people having bad relationships and that to me is the tragedy and you're right that

05:25 Subsequent relationships. I've got an uncle who helped the average for my family, none of us need to worry about the divorce rates in our family because he...I think he five or six marriages that didn't work for him and you're correct that everyone after the first has a less of a chance Continuing down. And that is a tragedy because most people go to another relationship, at least another relationship and so they end up kind of replicating and getting into a bad relationship. That uncle though –to get to your question about how did I get here–that uncle was part of how I got here in college. I actually went to college thinking I would do a business major

06:10 I wasn't there long before I went, yeah. I think I'd rather do something relational and therapy was what I kind of picked because I was the person that people came to and I thought well, I mean, I might as well get paid for being the confidant right? And so I knew I was going to grad school. At grad school, in grad school a couple of masters and PhD through the training, I got trained as an individual therapist but I got really interested in systems work of couples and families And had some problems with how couples therapy particularly was being done or not done well. Statistics are not really good on the effectiveness of marital therapy and so as I was finishing up my dissertation, I read an article to my wife

07:00 My wife sitting behind me as I've stacks of books everywhere and I'm writing this dissertation. She has now lived through both masters and the PhD, and we got married right before we both went to grad school I said, this is how I do my work. It was on coaching and she said what are you going to do now that you've done all this work for therapy? And I finished my dissertation and immediately started training as a coach and decided that instead of just saying, I'm not happy about this and I'm not happy about this and I'm not happy about this, I was gonna figure out what to be happy about So why marriage? Because when I was a kid, I watched my uncle go through multiple relationships all destructively. I watched two aunts go through several different marriages destructively and thought there has to be something that helps couples

07:48 My training proved that it wasn't marital therapy. And so I set out to say, what does make a difference? Like what is the underlying factor in marriages working? What makes a good marriage and how do you help people who are even in a troubled relationship get to that positive? So that was So I wrote the beginnings of Save the Marriage that you're aware of. The Save the Marriage system went online in 1999, so it's been a while since we've added to it changed and transformed it but that was my first stake in the ground going this is how marriages get better

08:26 More recently, I've been focused on what if you're not that bad at that point where you're having to save your marriage? Like let's back up a little bit because I would rather interrupt the process before we're at that point. Absolutely yeah! And so instead of saving your marriages how to get your marriage to where you want it to be before you have to save it and there are some very similar pieces in there like what makes a great marriage and why marriages get into trouble But that, we backed up some and that's what led to the Unpause app. So we've got Save the Marriage at the end of the line to help people add to the line to figure out how to get off of that and then to step back, the Unpause app was designed to help people who were stuck in that pause point so that's a long way to say, That's How I Got Here. Nice! And just whilst we're talking about that

09:21 I always hate leaving this bit till the end. That pause app, who's it for and where can people get it? So it's the Unpause app. We don't want to use it to pause. I'm like, come up with the count like that not five minute abs four minutes abs! Not the Pause App is it? Okay sorry got it. It's an un-pause app and it's designed to help people understand first how their marriage got into trouble but more than that how to get it out of trouble at that point we'll talk about what happens when people hit the pause button but the un-pause app is education exercises assessments Save the Marriage.

10:09 So most of the time when I'm talking with people, they've hit the pause button. Didn't know it and are starting to see the effect of that – the negative effect of that so um...I decided we needed something to help people understand how to back away from that. Yeah yeah i mean uh you know I see that as just such little things creeping in Bringing someone a cup of tea in the morning or giving them a kiss every time you leave that house, or like just that knowing hug that isn't just a quick flipping two bits of skin passing in the hallway. It's actually got some love and meaning there. I mean these little things are so natural when we're dating also natural when the excitement and relationship is still present

11:00 And then it's the how willing we are to stay. I'm not really trying to pick the right words here, like it's like a willingness to keep that alive, like holding a candle in the wind and being unwilling to put a little shelter around it to keep the flame flickering bright or just say ah bollocks to it and chucking it over their shoulder kind of thing That's what we're talking about, right? Let's talk about how that happens because I don't think it's for bad intentions. OK. So we back back when people get together they find this person they're interested in them and they start investing energy into that. Right. They're building this relationship and as you're building in your like wow this person is amazing! I want to spend all my time with him. I want to spend the rest of my life with him. And so people make a commitment in fairly short

11:49 ceremony. Yeah, I remember it was like 45 minutes on a very hot August day and my wife we walked in single and came out of like that's it now we're married and now we got to go do life And so we did I mean right after that we honeymooned and then we hit off the grad school And I could feel the tendencies of going, OK. We got these other things to do we didn't but a lot of people do hit the pause button then so here's what happens you have all of this energy you've put into the relationship You've created the connection and you think you've got that down like okay we... Relationship nailed down Got that! We're in it for life

12:31 Now we need to do these other things. And so, we'll get back to our relationship at this point and that's when we hit the pause button of going... For us it was there was grad school to deal with, there was just I mean supporting ourselves on retail work and whatever else we could scrounge around. That was a lot of our energy what we realized early on for us was that we could only survive it together though bonded together through having to hold through. But for a lot of people, they look at that and they go OK we're going to do the parenting thing career thing training thing from med school or law school or whatever for a lot of people The hobby thing, the travel whatever there's something that you will get back to us And the problem is when you hit that pause button, the when we will do

13:23 It's always a little bit into the future. There is always something else that needs to be accomplished, so you know when we've done the kid thing when they're in diapers oh we can return it back to us and then they are in school well we'll return it back to us and then they are in highschool...it's just out there, like my career is here, well when its here, well when its here And so we get out of the habit of connection into the habits of disconnection For benign reasons, like we have this and the love is what we need so we can do these other things. Interesting thing about those statistics of what happens even in the first marriage you know that statistics are not great they're better than in later ones but if we just put them all together roughly at least in the United States and most other places I've looked it's somewhere in the 50-50 neighborhood right? Cointos

14:15 Divorces versus successful marriages, versus marriage that fail. Well let's say divorces and staying married because I know there are also a lot in that 50% who stay together they aren't really successful they're still together though Not happily married we're miserably married and we're not giving up! Still got the law that says we're married, but not to digress on that for far. But that being the case when I would see couples who were going to get married because they had to come to my office three times before they got married, They-I would always ask a question given the stats why do you think you beat the stats? Why are you willing to take that plunge knowing these divorce rates

14:55 To a person, they would tell me because they actually had the love that would sustain. Like they had the real thing as opposed to 50% who didn't and fell apart and I was...I would try to say that's not it. That's not going carry the team. If there is any substance to it? Oh No! We're different we love each other. And then say okay Is there anything under the hood of that? No nothing. We just love each other she's got great boobs. I'm a fun guy and we're gonna live happily ever after And that will carry you for a while, even after you hit the pause button because you've created momentum and you never realized there was something else underneath the hood. Right? That there had to be something under the hood so momentum carries it but as the momentum starts to fall away, there starts to be pain points

15:40 And so just observationally, most people are like why is my spouse more distant from me? Not why am I more distant from my spouse. Why is my spouse not treating me with respect and not treating me with love instead of why am I not doing that right there? So we're aware of what we're not getting when we were in pain. We are aware of the source of our pain at least in our mind more than whether we are part of that So, you know if I'm hitting my hand with a hammer. I'm aware of the pain in my hand not necessarily the fact that I'm continuing to hit my hand with the hammer until I stop right so That sets up the pattern and that as that pain accumulates That's when you see The marital problems and so for years people would come into my office And say here's what's wrong with my marriage? And I would go those are the symptoms of what's wrong with your marriage the problem with your marriage is you disconnected

16:31 And you stay disconnected and you're trying to treat the symptoms. So communication or, you know, the fights we have –we need to solve those things–or we disagree about parenting... whatever it is, those are symptoms of the fact That they hit the pause button and are now feeling the effects. Yeah, so somewhere in the early days of their relationship they hadn't really understood exactly what the constructs of the successful relationship was going to require. So shared values, open communication, grace and forgiveness What does hard work look like? What does chilling out look like, you know. Like real understanding of what each other is going to be looking for and what each other is going to commit then they find themselves in the relationship and then we're like well she doesn't make me happy! You know failing to realize that you haven't asked her what you could do to make her happy. Yeah yeah and that's all in the layers of connection when we are trying so back to those early days

17:33 You're looking and watching for what's working and not working. You're asking the questions, What do you want? What do you not want? And so at those points because we are attending to it because we are trying to connect, We build a connection And since you think you've got that, you're like OK well we don't have to do that anymore. So then the disconnection starts happening and there are three levels of connection and when people aren't aware of what those connections are about they just think oh well we love each other right? Physical connection, emotional connection, spiritual connection. Physical connection...loving touch and that's one of the ones where often you pointed to the hugging like you mean it or kissing as your coming in all those physical touches often become perfunctory or just disappear and so if your disconnected

18:25 Then you're going, why are we not closer physically? Well you're disconnected. And that's one of the areas where it shows emotional connection is that sense of we get each other and So physical is nonverbal. Emotional is verbal and non-verbal, you can look at each other and give each other a look when the kids are doing something or not along with each other as you're talking but that's emotional connection do we get each other? Do we support each other? Spiritual connection is that...do you know each other at a depth like what are your values what your dreams what are your fears what are your hopes What is there in there That's often where people fall in love

19:08 Just kind of the irony to me is people would come in my office and I would say, you know so tell me the story of how you got here. And they would get to this And then we fell in love and it's almost always, and then we fell in love after this long discussion about the family they grew up in. The experiences they've had, the values they hold, the things that they didn't tell everybody else. They kept them within... I remember that conversation with my wife. I shared well girlfriend at that time. I'd never shared those things. So you bond over them because you're like well that's really cool what's inside of them there are values match and our experiences now I know them at a new level

19:45 And that's where people would often say, and we fell in love not realizing that was a different conversation than that emotional connection. And then people stopped talking about it. Yeah. That's like the Disney story really isn't it? It's the movie moment like She gets me. I get her, we want the same thing! I've never met someone that like not only do i have the hots for but with... We're on the same page like I must marry her in case she gets away And there is part of the problem because the movie stops there. We got to happily ever after right? Not the hard work that keeps you happily ever after or not the attention that keeps you or the connection that keeps you happily ever after and so we just dropped that and that's why the movie stops us because from

20:29 And I can't put in all the energy. I did, you know when we were dating and like I never said you could but isn't there a space between all the energy you put in while you're dating and none of the energy you're putting in now is there somewhere in between? There because momentum is easy to keep moving right so years ago at the beginning of my driving years. I had crappy cars. So I pushed a lot of cars and I happen to know that the hardest part

21:18 The goal of pushing is getting it started. Once you get it rolling, You can keep it rolling, but you got to get it rolling. You've got to put the momentum in once its rolling there's only a certain amount of energy had to put into and same in relationship once you do all the work which didn't feel like work because It felt warm and loving and fuzzy and all that And then when you need to continue that momentum is when you hit the pause button thinking we'll get back to us We got this Yeah But no other area of life Is that a winning strategy? If you had a plant, the plants going to die. If you don't clean your car or put new oil in it, the cars gonna die if you don't nurture a child to be able to walk and talk and wipe its own ass like the childs probably gonna die or turn out to be feral there is not another example of

22:11 Leave it to run its own course and it will go well. And yet here we are in relationships, and people so often don't give it the attention, the respect, the energy... Even just a slice of my work is I do have a lot of emphasis on the energy that we're giving out in the world our attitude towards things our beliefs and what you know what we get back what we expect now we get back what we put out. So if we expect it to go wrong And I'll see you next time.

22:55 Yeah, so I have people who say well it shouldn't be that hard. If the relationship is right there shouldn't be work. Oh yeah! I love that one like if it was going to work it would just work And I mean if I was meant to have muscles I wouldn't have to go do something and pick up something heavy right? If I was meant to be good at something I wouldn't have to practice it and that never works out That's kind of the growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. The fixed mindset is like, you're born the way you are or something is the way it is and that's just the way it is and we get stuck in that with relationships as opposed to a growth mindset You can get good at something because you practice and you give it attention. And that's where the energy is, and so then we forget that with a relationship. So people then justify well I guess it wasn't meant to be because we have these arguments or disconnection points. It was not meant to be but just that you're no longer putting energy into it and that's what happens. A lack of responsibility...

23:56 And I love that word. It's one of my favorite words, responsibility. It's the ability to respond right? And we have that. We have a response ability and instead of reacting to a spouse or reacting to the hurt we have in the relationship, we can choose how we're going to respond, how are gonna step into that relationship and that to me is a fundamental shift for a lot of people getting out of reaction mode into response mode Okay, cool. So we've talked a lot about it happening right? Let's get a bit practical for us for a moment. What are some of the literally the telltale signs of a relationship going into the pause phase? I think we all know them but let's just bring them out into the open here what you know give us some headline ones that people can relate to

24:43 Yeah, so one of the things you often see is that kind of the bickering comes up. And so you have both the silence where we're no longer even just like whatever I'm not going to have this fight or the bickering where we are having a fight and that ends up being pretty symptomatic for a lot of people that's where they can begin Save the Marriage

25:26 What is behind the disconnection? You end up having distance and because of that distance, because of that space you end up having more and more struggles over basic things like parenting. So when people tell me that they are arguing about parenting I know that part of why they're arguing about it is because they actually have this disconnection that's going on. That's a piece of it. The tone is set basically but what In terms of the disconnect comes, I think because you start to settle on the idea that it's not worth bringing this topic up. Because I tried to bring something else up last week and that didn't go very well and i tried to bring something out the week before and that ended up in a blazing row so do you know what? I'm just going to give up! I'm done trying to work things out with her but

26:13 And Once we got past the early stages and started to get into like, okay we really are going actually start seeing a lot of each other and hanging out. I was like there's a few things just... We're not gonna do rolling eyes and huffing. Being in a mood for three days, let alone three weeks and not say what it was. Like everything is going to be clear and communicated an out in the moment. And I'm speaking on her behalf but it did take my girlfriend a little bit by surprise and it did take her awhile to get used to it because she'd been so used to being in this fractious relationship herself but being able to sort of hold...being able to say no what's that? It was like well what just happened there

27:17 And in our relationship, being able to slow time down. She'd be like oh well actually you did this or you didn't turn up on time or you did that and that kind of annoyed me and then I'm committed saying yeah actually do you know what? I can really get that. I really understand what that must have been like for you wondering where I was for the last 20 minutes whilst your excitedly getting dinner cooked and a glass of wine on the side and I rock up 20 minutes later Actually knowing that there's some value in us communicating along the basic commitment of we're not doing that uncomfortable turn our evening into a row literally five minutes after we've got home, let alone going to bed on a row. And so- So let me jump in on it. Yeah please do yeah? Yes. What you described that conversation you had with her

28:11 was a connected conversation. If you are disconnected, that's a... That conversation is not going to happen. And so you're having that conversation to stay connected but it also because of the connection. So let me add one more piece in what I see as a possibility for marriage. Marriage gives us the possibility of becoming a we like we are a team, we are in this together. When I'm writing its just a we And that doesn't mean you lose yourself to it. It means you show up as your best self to that, and so being committed to that is another element that has to be there to have that conversation like I want to be a we and so I need to let you know when something is bothering me instead of just letting it simmer on the back stove until we burned it down. So all those pieces are there when you're having that conversation. You have connection—you want to have that conversation

29:08 You have a we, team approach. So we matter in this how we are playing this game. I play a good bit of pickleball and one of the things were always saying is gosh, we got to communicate about this. A ball will fall between us and I was like you're going to do it or you could say I got this And I don't think you're out to mess up, but I also think that is what you do in a good team. Like, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt there right? And yesterday I was back playing and hadn't played in like two and half weeks and I swung and missed at one and I was like how could I do that? My partner who had played with me many times before looked at me said don't worry you got it

30:16 And like that's what you do in a relationship. Encouragement, boost. Yeah there is no reason to say how was wrong with you? You swung and missed that so anyway there are lot of parallels on how we do teams period I what i like about pickleballs it's two of us so it very much matches some of that. So let's at point there when couples are willing to jump into an argument instead of screw you I'm going to defend myself for engaging this row The complete opposite would be, whoa! Something must have really upset you to say that. How about I give you a hug and you tell me about it? Yeah yeah so uh your i you're leaning into something just did a training on anger and the biggest point of anger is anger is a secondary emotion. I love that yes. And underneath anger is always hurt fear or threat

31:11 And so if somebody is coming at me angrily, I try to have the habit of going wonder what's hurtful fearful or threatening underneath it. You know? How am i entering into that or I might be able to say that is not about me whatever's going on but I can be supportive either way instead of what we generally do is meet anger with anger and so in a relationship that is connected to be able to say I wonder what's going on that's leading to Or even to head back into a relationship by being curious about what is the hurt, what is the fear? What is the threat that allows us to respond differently when the anger comes out which it will in an intimate relationship.

31:51 So am I perfect on the pickleball court? No, but I don't react to my partner. I don't do that and that's one of those...I'm not going to do that just like I have some choices in a marriage of how what things I would never say you know I'll say to somebody You should never threaten divorce unless you mean it. You should never use that as a threat. You should never stomp away without some I need to calm down and I'll be back there are some things And seeing that as if you're not going to talk to your pickable teammate like that,

32:39 Why would you talk to your wife like it or vice versa if you can be gracious with your pickable partner, or you can be gracious with the bus driver who's being an arse to you. Why can't you be gracious to the...to your wife for you love and adore instead of spending rest of life with? It's just like just because we're in the routine, just because they're not going anywhere, just because we've got a wake up till next day as well. Like its carte blanche to have around I've been guilty of it for sure in the past Yeah. Well, in fact my wife and I have used the criteria of if they're going to treat each other this way, I don't think we want to be friends with them because you know if it leaks out on the pickleball court, It's probably leaking out other places too so...it actually is interesting to watch that dynamic. Couples often will tell me they just can't play together and I'm like that's interesting! You might want to reflect on what that means on how you interact but anyway that's a whole pickleball conversation

33:33 So as people disconnect, so you asked what are the symptoms? There are some I call them the disses of a relationship. The first piece of that disconnection is what starts the distance and so if you also see some other pieces like disinterest like I'm not interested in what's going on with my spouse. I don't care what's going on in their inner world. I don't care what their interests are. I'm just disinterested that is a symptom of that disconnection If you allow that to go on long enough, you watch disregard show itself. So when I make a decision, I don't think how is this going to impact my wife? What's it matter, right? That's a disregard for what might be important to them. If I'm making decisions based on me that's disregard all of that starts to show up as disrespect. That's the rolling of the eyes. That's the you know turning away from and walking away from that's disrespectful and when all of that comes together The next point is disappointment where you're like this is not what I thought It was going to be You're not who I thought you were This Is When you kind of begin to demonize

34:39 Which leads to disliking your spouse. And the only next stage beyond that is disdain, like I am done with you and I'm done with this relationship and so... That's the cross. That's the arc, yeah that's the slippery slope you know in my work and when a man like just everything starts to go wrong I call it the low value death spiral and unless you recognize it it's almost impossible to get out of it until you hit rock bottom and then you go oh blimey what do I do now? You've just as you went through that I can live those moments so vividly And that disdain and despair ending of it, unfortunately for men is where mental health problems start to show up. Sure so one of the things that research shows us as humans is that we need to matter like that is a deep need for us to feel like we matter. Mattering is some recent conversations people have had So do I matter?

35:34 And if there's one place where you should feel like you matter is to your spouse, like if I don't matter to my spouse. What does that mean about me? And so that what you're talking about the impact of that for people have like what do I do now? Like I don't feel like I matter to my spouse often They either do fall into depression or anxiety or something like that, or they start looking for where else they can matter. Like, can I matter to my kids? Can I matter at work and a matter to that other person outside of the marriage? That's where that begins to be much more of a temptation because we have that need so deeply our answer ancient ancestors if they didn't matter, they didn't survive. And so it's wired into our DNA that we need to matter

36:20 And we work hard to matter. So if we are working hard at mattering and it's not happening in this core relationship, that is deeply painful for people. Yeah because in a relationship an intimate relationship, in a marriage That's the opposite of that. What I'm hearing is that's rejection, so when we get rejected constantly, rejected with a hug, rejected with the kiss, rejected with the interest in their day let alone rejected when we go in for you know the back rub, the sex whatever... Rejection, rejection, rejection and I can see it. I don't matter, I don't matter

36:58 And it's interesting. So yeah, and so there are times when somebody might say I'm not interested in this right now which is different than I'm never interested in you right? There isn't and that sometimes in a fragile relationship It feels like it's you know that that there it is You know, I went to for an embrace I went for you know sex or whatever and got rejected Now that confirms what I most fear. If we have better relationships, more connection the person can say, I'm really tired. The kids have touched me out today. Give me a break right? There are some ways of that being understood if you're working as a team, you feel connected and you don't assume that your spouse just feels like you don't matter. That changes the whole tone to those conversations. Yeah there's

37:50 There's an equilibrium that's at play there. And I can see if you're interested in where they're at, and if you're a guy that's consciously feeding into a relationship, you take that feedback as oh okay well what could I do for you tonight? Like let me really serve you, let me really have you feel great not transactional not like if I do this it eight o'clock I'm going to get a shag at nine o'clock right but there's some kind of...I've got you tonight But then in a healthy relationship where she fully receives that and she's like, okay yeah I feel like I matter. I feel heard and so the exchange comes back whether it is later on that night or whether is you know the following day the following week but I see that as a healthy relationship where we don't do things when we're expecting an immediate response or value like an equal value response but we are in it together where we're committed to picking up the slack and making sure

38:49 I understand that you wanted a hug and he, and you understood that. I'm all hugged out today. Got it? So let's, the only tweak I would put is when you said the exchange. Right? Yeah. I want to get away from it feeling like the oh, I did this therefore that but that part of connection part of being connected has multi-dimensions sex being one of them making sure that the other person feels taken care of being one of them and when all of that comes together It's not so much the exchange for that, but the overall connection between you which is multiple exchanges that all filter down. What a lot of people get into and this is one of those ways of determining that a marriage is already in trouble is when they go I did this why not this? I did this... I agree, I'm fully on it. No, no, you said that! I just want to make sure that it's not the exchange of this to this

39:45 All of the exchanges together that lead to our connection point. And when you go, I did that why not that? That is actually a good symptom of we've got a problem. Like we're filling up a mutual love tank. We're filling up the mutual resource of love and energy and vitality and intimacy. Let me ask, change gears a little bit right? When things are strained right? And the man does begin to struggle you know when I bought Save The Marriage I was literally broken. One of my one of the things i say in one of my talks

40:23 I was at my counsellor's office in her garden, screaming in her face. There is nothing wrong with me! Clearly I was you know in a bad place and my mental health was utterly shot. A relationship that is strained will ultimately, of course this happens to women as well but talking about men who are listening to the Jonnie Jensen Show it s an incredible Tough time for men when a relationship is really struggling and quite naturally the rest of their life will suffer with it. I don't know how you want to enter into this topic but what are some of the telltale signs and concerns for you when you see a guy, he's really struggling? The relationship is a problem but I can see that he's really struggling

41:13 Yeah, so one of the things you're pointing at kind of obliquely is that the feeling of competence. Like when I feel like something is failing for many men that's a I'm not competent and it's true if it's a job problem, If it's a parenting problem, if it's a spousal problem or even athletics or whatever, if there is a challenge to competency for some men That ends up being a global competency question. It's not that I might have a struggle here, but suddenly it feels like I am incompetent everywhere and so that globalization of competence can be a pretty clear sign. There are three fears that I think humans carry with us and its whether you have or enough are good enough at things in life or loved enough, haven't enough, good

42:07 And loved enough. So those are the kind of the ones and all of these, you know we've already talked some about that ancient wiring about mattering but these fears tie in there am I good enough is about my sense of competency? Because if we didn't have competency way back, like what are you going to do for the tribe and therefore what's the tribe going to do for you? What are you going to do for the family unit or the community? Or what they're gonna do for you. So I'm not good enough. If I'm not good enough back then, you're in trouble. Out of the tribe yeah! Well yeah and I don't have enough well in the middle of not having enough your... You can't get what you need. You can't feed your family. You can't do whatever so I don't have

42:50 These are devoid of whether it's real or not. So I'll talk about that in a minute and then the last one is if I'm loved enough because that's part of that mattering and being included so if you think about that mattering, am I good enough? Am I loved enough? Do I have enough all our pieces of that mattering deep down And so this is not a reality check In the sense that it doesn't have to be real. So, do I have enough? Had a guy in my office years ago he said, I don't know what I'm going to do to survive. I'm down on my last six million in the bank and I'm sitting there going love to trade places with you and try to survive on that. It was in his head right? It was entirely in his head of I don't have enough

43:37 So it's not whether anymore, it's a factual piece. It can happen for people and I've known people who were like how are you even staying afloat? They didn't have the fear though they're just like it'll take care of itself on good. They keep rolling the people who have six million or even more who were like don't have enough I'm not loved enough often gets to be a monofocus, especially if there is a marital problem where suddenly it's nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. You know the friends aren't there my kids don't care about me and my parents all of it becomes globalized very quickly and so we have a competence issue, a resource issue and relationship issue that all when we are in a marriage crisis all three of those

44:20 And so part of what I suggest for guys is to step back and go, which one or two or three are activated for me? To understand where that's coming from is helpful. And to step back and say, Is that realistic because my guy in my office who was fretting over six million, I'm like OK, let's just draw this out runway wise you don't bring in another penny how long are you going to live And he started doing the math. He's like, I mean, I got years to go OK so realistically that's a good assessment and even in marriage you know obviously you want the love there that doesn't mean there are not other relationships in your life That is one of the problems from end though as they often have gotten themselves isolated to the fact that there is one relationship that matters and now that was in jeopardy

45:16 When I point that out to guys, it's a revelation. It's like you're putting your everything on this relationship. First of all that's a lot of pressure for her which she never even signed up for and second of all if anything about that relationship even starts to wobble or fray Then you're at risk in your own mind of absolutely losing everything, which of course is going to generate panic and fear and snappiness and not being able to sleep. A whole load of pressure and anxiety plus on that regard men thrive...

45:56 So the longest longitudinal study we have in looking at what makes people feel like they're happy and they have meaning in their life They look at all of the factors. The number one that led to longer life, better health, better happiness, better meaning in life was relations. That was relations what relationships they had not the one oddly when I was back in my beginning of my career as a chaplain and a hospital nobody ever said I wish I'd spent more time at the office and made a little bit more money but all of them had regrets over the relationships they have not cared for

46:54 So that tells us if we know that at the end, maybe we back up a little bit and do a little reverse engineering and say how do I spread out my relationships? Make sure that I'm paying attention to my primary relationship. Make sure that I'm building relationship with my kids and with whoever else in the family and also friends and mentors and colleagues and whoever else you need to have that. I have an expression, I use a lot in terms of parenting conversations but it applies everywhere. Relationship before results and by the way if you do it in that order you're probably going to get both. Try the other way and it will fit! Exactly exactly so look as we sort of head intowards the last 10 minutes right let's talk to men about them taking responsibility them leading

47:42 Unpausing or leading the Save in the Marriage. What does it take for a guy to wake up, see his part in the process and actually take the lead? What can a guy do in that regard? That's a really good question and it's one that I see a lot of men... And let me just say, I see people doing but more men than not who ask the question why should I be the one to lead the charge on this? This is I shouldn't have to. And my response is any change starts with one person going, this isn't where I want it to be. So why do I think one person can change it?

48:22 Because a marriage is the system. I'll say this repeatedly to people that one person can make a difference and people say, oh it takes two to tango and my response is you are already tangoing. It just doesn't sound like it's going well right? You're not dancing well so...you're already doing the tango maybe we do at a better tango maybe you find ways of changing your step because you chose to be here So the first thing is to recognize that there is an impact that you can have Save the Marriage. And if you're not happy with where things are, to take it on and say I will start the process. So now let's talk about we've already talked about why that's important right of longevity but also just you made a commitment living into that commitment honoring your values all of those things are reasons to do it what do you do is one of those other pieces and so what do you do as you become invitational in your connection? So I'll talk about three Cs to this process

49:24 One is to connect with your spouse. We named three targets, physical by the way physical does not mean sex it means loving touch including sex but loving touch Emotional connection of making sure your spouse feels like they matter, that you get them, that you support them. Spiritual connection of sharing what's important to you and I want to talk just for a second in a minute about how you can do that low-key so let's connect change That doesn't mean I think something is wrong with somebody as much as I know we all stagnate And so that's deciding if were going to grow and change and expand ourselves So thats an important piece

50:06 And then create, create a new path. That is seeing things as a we like we're on the team together So those are the three C's and to do The Connection you do it invitationally If you say We're going to do date night probably not going to work because that's too much connection But hey there's a place up the road It has a really good sandwich I heard about I'd like to go try it Would you like to go with me? That's a whole different platform Same outcome, where you're at the same place together and you can have a good time without the expectations. Without the pressure because they can say now I'm okay and you go try the sandwich right so that you do an invitational approach. Yeah if you go three times there's always for me when men lead in this if you go okay don't come find no problems but you create in the space and you create in the atmosphere well you're going and you'd love it to come with

50:58 Somewhere down the line, she's like I think I'd love to come actually. So she joins you in the space rather than you having a hump that she took her three requests. And by the way that is not the time to say okay so now we need to have deep conversation about where we are. That is not the time. That's the time they have a light loving time together an enjoyable time laugh together but yeah and the nice thing about the way we phrase it I'm doing this would you like to come? Is that even if they say no It feels there's a residual warmth to it. If a friend of mine says, hey I'm going to go grab a cup of coffee would you like to go with me? Even if i'm like I am too busy, I would still be going that's so nice of them to think of being invite me there's a warmth that's embedded in it right he wants to spend time with me yeah So invitational connection...so a lot of times I do think spiritual connection is one that is often missed and some people are like well how do you do that invitationally

51:55 Hey, I just read this really cool book and it really struck me about this message they put down. And to share that what was in there like or a movie or TV show or whatever something that you found interesting in it because if you found it interesting, you're telling something about yourself without having to say That's what I believe. You can just put it out there as, that was an interesting message they put or that was an interesting message I didn't agree with you the counter of it is still something that's important to you so you start talking about things that strike you at a deeper level roundabout by the movie, the book, the TV show, whatever and that allows a conversation to open up And so you talked about the three things It takes about three times doing anything to feel less awkward about it

52:41 So does that mean, because my girlfriend did this today right? I made a real clanger. We were doing high rocks tomorrow we had to raise some money for charity so we raised £1000 and £200 of that becomes the prize pot yeah! So i donated the money...I sent it all off I forgot to keep back the prize money, right? So I was livid with myself. I was like, Oh no! Like how am I never going to get the money back what they're gonna do and all that she repeated back to me one of my core values. Oh how dare she? She goes always believe

53:18 As in like, it'll work out always believe. And I said to my kids, I say it to myself as I would have said it to her... In that moment she repeated back to me one of my kind of mantras one of my core values and what you just said about that spiritual thing that's a real.. That hit me kinda like I really noticed that she'd said that wasn't just the casual line in a text message. I really felt her get me Like, she understands me. She's listening and she's there for me so I can see in what you just shared or what you just suggested repeating back to someone their value or showing an alignment with one of their core values would really build that spiritual connection. Yeah yeah when you're talking at the level of values... And we all need reminders of what our values are but when you're talking about that level of values that's a pretty deep connection point. Well it is deep

54:15 But on at the entry level. You know, once you've had some fun for a couple of months and in a few nights out and some good sex that's the conversation to be had surely. Are we aligned here? What do you want out of life what really matters to you if you even know your values are like not like Do you know what your values are send me a letter but some banter some intimate sort of chit chat about these things so powerful and if we're in a long-term relationship we don't know them then wow! We can create a whole new chapter When we start to do some of these things, and so much of what you're sharing I dare say, like what's that? Osmosis. Kind of 10 years later i'm bringing Save the Marriage into some of my work trust me I've not like scoured it and robbed it all but the impact it had on me without doubt there will be aspects of your work in my work

55:07 And I say that with honor, really. With great pride. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's for a couple to realize that they can create a fresh chapter at any time by doing some of the things that you're sharing here today? Yeah. Change is more possible than people think and so I created this Save The Marriage system do I believe that every marriage can be saved? No! I do know that there's only one way to find out And that's by trying. And if you try and you fail, you don't walk away with regret. You walk away going I did what I could and there is a lot to be said for that. Clean break like emotionally clean break. We fell in love the children were made with love we got married with love and do you know what? We reached the end of the road let's break up with love

56:02 A bizarre thing to even suggest because it's so contrary to what everybody else does, but how about we break up with love? Yeah. So I always say optimally, I want people to walk away with a great marriage minimally. I want people to be able to look in the mirror and say, I did my best and to be able to walk away with peace because when people have kids You're tied together for life. I mean, it's not like you get rid of that person and many times people realize that when they what they fantasized about getting rid of the pain They actually end up, because of where they were in their connection. They end up having to be more connected to talk about the kids and deal with those things than they were before. Yeah as a divorced couple... As a married couple there's an element of oh I'll let them take care of it but as a divorced couple you really get serious about everything that matters to you yeah totally

56:52 There's another whole subject for us, absolutely. Well like bizarrely in case you hadn't noticed we're kind of heading up towards an hour and I generally contrary to Joe Rogan and the other guys I generally like to sort of clip it at the hour there are so many more things uh i could talk with you about and for anyone who's listened to The End I hope there's plenty of you Just to let you listeners know that I'm aware that Lee and I have talked about a lot of things today, and there's whole episodes in these individual subjects. Whether you want to come back on it or not, I dare say we could dig into some of those in a more extended way but I don't want people to think that we whizzed through these different topics because they don't matter or because they're that small.

57:40 Just that there was, this is our first time on together. It was an opportunity to cover all these topics. Yeah we unrolled the map and said look at the map here's the whole map but there are different places you might see along the way. Exactly! At the risk of repeating something we might have already said but for a guy who's listening to this who loves his wife and he wants to transform their marriage What encouragement or direction would you give him? Yeah, so one of the pieces that I find to be just a major important shift is that team approach. Like if we're going to be a team how do i need to be the best person on that team for me and how do I need to support

58:24 The other part of that team. If you do that, that begins to open the doors when people tell me they feel like they're oppositional with their spouse. They don't feel like they're working as a team together. I'm like OK so if you were to do that, see each other's a team to start with that approach that can transform a lot of what things are broken. So just having that one piece is a starting point for anyone Beautiful. Yeah, and anybody can take the responsibility for that any man can take the lead in that and just what I know in my work to kind of bookend that is time and time again it's not 100% at a time but time and time again when men sort of wake up to themselves when they take responsibility for everything that's working and everything that's not working when they start to put some emphasis on how their showing up and get on with other parts of their life could start

59:20 I'm Our wives, our partners start to see us as the man that she fell in love with not the man that she's been stuck with for however long it's been. And then the relationship transforms then this new chapter blossoms and I really want men to see that as a possibility for themselves from the moment they're willing to step into it that becomes a possibility.

1:00:06 Beautiful. Remind us again of where your various websites, where do you want to send people Lee if they want to come and work with you? So let's talk about two different paths. There are some people who will go oh gosh we are in trouble We are deeply into the crisis and I'm afraid, or there is legal stuff on the horizon. That would be the Save The Marriage path. Yes 10 out of 10. I vouch for the Save The Marriage. Ideally get it before you break up! Yeah that's...I mean the earlier the better always if you know you're in a crisis though um the early point might be going okay we're in a crisis so that's at savethemarriage.com

1:00:43 So I try to be as simple as possible with where I send people. Savethemarriage.com if your marriage needs saving, a lot of people are kind of chronically stuck like it's not there they're just stuck. It's not that the marriage is about the end but you know if you're stuck that you are drifting in that direction. I mean it's like you're up the river and you hear the waterfall one is if you're at the waterfall save the marriage but if you just go like we're headed that way That's where you might want to unpause your marriage and that's unpauseyourmarriage.com, again nothing to be tricky about it, unpauseyourmarriage.com that's the app. I'll put them in the show notes anyway but if you're listening go and see them and then i have a lot of guests on the show Lee. The fact

1:01:31 I bought your stuff 10 years ago. Honestly, it would be easy to say bullshit about that but generally true and an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And I would love to have subject-specific episodes we can do together with my absolute pleasure to support and bring your work to more people's attention. I'm going to hit the goodbye button and see you on the other side Lee. Thanks again! Thank you Thanks for tuning in to The Jonnie Jensen Show. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with fellow dads! Creating the life you deserve starts with YOU. Get your HVM blueprint and join our community of motivated modern dads at highvaluemanproject.com Let's go